there is a great amount of swelling in the chest wall which we know was
due to bleeding and bruising of the tissues of the chest wall, and we
also see that there is air in the tissues of the chest wall here and
here. It is rather obvious.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say here and here, you are referring to the outer
portions, showing on the X-ray moving up toward the shoulder area?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; going from the lower chest up to the region near the
angle of the shoulder blade.

The boney framework of the chest, it is obvious that the fifth rib,
we count ribs from above downward, this is the first rib, second rib,
third rib, fourth rib, fifth rib, that a portion of this rib has been
shattered, and we can see a few fragments that have been left behind.

Also the rib has because of being broken and losing some of its
substance, has taken a rather inward position in relation to the fourth
and the sixth ribs on either side.

Mr. SPECTER. What effect was there, if any, on the upper portion of
that rib?

Dr. SHAW. This was not noticed at the time of this examination, Mr.
Specter. However, in subsequent examinations we can tell that there was
a fracture across the rib at this point due to the rib being struck and
bent.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say this point, will you describe where that
point exists on the X-ray?

Dr. SHAW. This is a point approximately 4 centimeters from its
connection with the transverse process of the spine.

Mr. SPECTER. And is the fracture, which is located there, caused by a
striking there or by the striking at the end of the rib?

Dr. SHAW. It is caused by the striking at the end of the rib.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. What else then is discernible from the viewing of
the X-ray, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. There is a great amount of, we would say, obscuration of
the lower part of the right lung field which we know from subsequent
examination was due to blood in the pleural cavity and also due to a
hematoma in the lower part of the right lower lobe and also a severe
laceration of the middle lobe with it having lost its ability to
ventilate at that time. So, we have both an airless lung, and blood in
the lung to account for these shadows.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else visible from the X-ray which is
helpful in our understanding of the Governor's condition?

Dr. SHAW. No; I don't think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be useful--As to that X-ray, Dr. Shaw, will
you tell us what identifying data, if any, it has in the records of
Parkland Hospital, for the record?

Dr. SHAW. On this X-ray it has in pencil John G. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that G or C?

Dr. SHAW. They have a "G" November 22, 1963, and it has number 218-922.

Mr. SPECTER. Were those X-rays taken under your supervision?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, by a technician.

Mr. SPECTER. And that is, in fact, the X-ray then which was taken of
Governor Connally at the time these procedures were being performed?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, would any of the other X-rays be helpful in our
understanding of the Governor's condition?

Dr. SHAW. I believe the only--perhaps showing one additional X-ray
would show the fracture previously described which was not easily
discernible on the first film. This is quite often true but not
important to the--here is the fracture that can be easily seen.

Mr. SPECTER. You are now referring to a separate and second X-ray.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you start out by telling us on what date this X-ray
was performed.

Dr. SHAW. This X-ray was made on the 29th of November 1963, 7 days
following the incident.

Mr. SPECTER. What does it show of significance?

Dr. SHAW. It shows that there has been considerable clearing in the
lower portion of the lung, and also that there is a fracture of the
fifth rib as previously described approximately 4 centimeters from the
transverse process posteriorly.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else depicted by that X-ray of material
assistance in evaluating the Governor's wound?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Were there any photographs taken as distinguished from
X-rays of the body?

Dr. SHAW. There were no photographs.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, we shall then, subject to the approval of the
Commission, for the record, have the X-rays reproduced at Parkland
Memorial Hospital, and, if possible, also have a photograph of the
X-ray made for the permanent records of the Commission to show the
actual X-ray, which Dr. Shaw has described during his testimony here
this afternoon.

Senator COOPER. It is directed that it be made a part of the record of
these hearings.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, what additional operative procedures did you
perform on Governor Connally's chest?

Dr. SHAW. I will continue with my description of the operative
procedure. The opening that had been made through the rib after the
removal of the fragments was adequate for further exploration of the
pleural cavity. A self-retaining retractor was put into place to
maintain exposure. Inside the pleural cavity there were approximately
200 cc. of clotted blood.

It was found that the middle lobe had been lacerated with the
laceration dividing the lobe into roughly two equal parts. The
laceration ran from the lower tip of the middle lobe up into its root
or hilum.

However, the lobe was not otherwise damaged, so that it could be
repaired using a running suture of triple zero chromic catgut.

The anterior basal segments of the right lower lobe had a large
hematoma, and blood was oozing out of one small laceration that was
a little less than a centimeter in length, where a rib fragment had
undoubtedly been driven into the lobe. To control hemorrhage a single
suture of triple zero chromic gut was placed in this laceration. There
were several small matchstick size fragments of rib within the pleural
cavity. Examination, however, of the pericardium of the diaphragm and
the upper lobe revealed no injury to these parts of the chest.

A drain was placed in the eighth space in the posterior axillary line
similar to the drain which had been placed in the second interspace in
the front of the chest.

The drain in the front of the chest was thought to be a little too long
so about 3 centimeters of it were cut away.

Attention was then turned on the laceration of the latissimus dorsi
muscle where the missile had passed through it. Several sutures of
chromic gut where used to repair this muscle.

The incision was then closed with interrupted No. zero chromic gut in
the muscles of the chest wall--first, I am sorry, in the intercostale
muscle, and muscles of the chest wall, and the same suture material was
used to close the serratus anterior muscle in the subcutaneous tissue,
and interrupted vertical sutures of black silk were used to close the
skin.

Attention was then turned to the wound of entrance which, as previously
described, was about a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter,
roughly elliptical in shape. The skin edges of this wound were
incised--excised, I beg your pardon--I have to go back just a little
bit.

Prior to examination of this wound, a stab wound was made at the
angle of the scapula to place a drain in the subscapular space. In
the examination of the wound of entrance, the examining finger could
determine that this drain was immediately under the wound of entrance,
so that it was adequately draining the space.

Two sutures were placed in the facia of the muscle, and the skin was
closed with interrupted vertical matching sutures of black silk.

That concluded the operation. Both tubes were connected to a water seal
bottle, and the dressing was applied.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was in charge then of the subsequent care on the
Governor's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Dr. Charles Gregory who had been previously alerted and then
came in to take care of the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the wound on the wrist, did you have
any opportunity to examine it by way of determining points of entry and
exit?

Dr. SHAW. My examination of the wrist was a very cursory one. I could
tell that there was a compound comminuted fracture because there was
motion present, and there was a ragged wound just over the radius above
the wrist joint. But that was the extent of my examination of the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, did I take your deposition at Parkland Memorial
Hospital on March 23 of 1964?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; you did.

Mr. SPECTER. Has that deposition been made available to you?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. To you here this afternoon?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you subsequent to the giving of that deposition on
March 23, 1964, had an opportunity to examine Governor Connally's
clothing which we have available in the Commission room here today?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, based on all facts now within your knowledge, is
there any modification which you would care to make in terms of the
views which you expressed about entrance and exit wounds back on March
23, based on the information which was available to you at that time?

Dr. SHAW. From an examination of the clothing, it is very obvious that
the wound of entrance was through the coat sleeve.

Mr. SPECTER. While you are testifying in that manner, perhaps it would
be helpful if we would make available to you the actual jacket, if it
pleases the Commission.

We shall reserve Exhibits Nos. 681 for the X-ray of November 22; 682
for the X-ray of November 29; and we shall now mark a photograph of the
coat for our permanent records as "Commission Exhibit No. 683".

Dr. Shaw, I hand you at this time what purports to be the coat worn
by Governor Connally, which we introduce subject to later proof when
Governor Connally appears later this afternoon; and, for the record,
I ask you first of all if this photograph, designated as Commission
Exhibit No. 683, is a picture of this suit coat?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. I had interrupted you when you started to refer to the
hole in the sleeve of the coat. Will you proceed with what you were
testifying about there?

Dr. SHAW. The hole in the sleeve of the coat is within half a
centimeter of the very edge of the sleeve, and lies----

Mr. DULLES. This is the right sleeve, is it not?

Dr. SHAW. I am sorry, yes. Thank you. Of the right sleeve, and places
it, if the coat sleeve was in the same position, assuming it is in the
same position that my coat sleeve is in, places it directly over the
lateral portion of the wrist, really not directly on the volar or the
dorsum of the surface of the wrist, but on the lateral position or the
upper position, as the wrist is held in a neutral position.

Mr. SPECTER. With the additional information provided by the coat,
would that enable you to give an opinion as to which was the wound of
entrance and which the wound of exit on the Governor's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. There is only one tear in the Governor's garment as far as
the appearance of the tear is concerned, I don't think I could render
an opinion as to whether this is a wound of entrance or exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Then, do you have sufficient information at your disposal
in total, based on your observations and what you know now to give any
meaningful opinion as to which was the wound of entrance and which the
wound of exit on the Governor's wrist?

Dr. SHAW. I would prefer to have Dr. Gregory testify about that,
because he has examined it more carefully than I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine.

Mr. DULLES. Could you tell at all how the arm was held from that mark
or that hole in the sleeve?

Dr. SHAW. Mr. Dulles, I thought I knew just how the Governor was
wounded until I saw the pictures today, and it becomes a little bit
harder to explain.

I felt that the wound had been caused by the same bullet that came out
through the chest with the Governor's arm held in approximately this
position.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right hand held close to the body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, and this is still a possibility. But I don't feel that
it is the only possibility.

Senator COOPER. Why do you say you don't think it is the only
possibility? What causes you now to say that it is the location----

Dr. SHAW. This is again the testimony that I believe Dr. Gregory will
be giving, too. It is a matter of whether the wrist wound could be
caused by the same bullet, and we felt that it could but we had not
seen the bullets until today, and we still do not know which bullet
actually inflicted the wound on Governor Connally.

Mr. DULLES. Or whether it was one or two wounds?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Or two bullets?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; or three.

Mr. DULLES. Why do you say three?

Dr. SHAW. He has three separate wounds. He has a wound in the chest, a
wound of the wrist, a wound of the thigh.

Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes; we haven't come to the wound of the thigh yet,
have we?

Mr. McCLOY. You have no firm opinion that all these three wounds were
caused by one bullet?

Dr. SHAW. I have no firm opinion.

Mr. McCLOY. That is right.

Dr. SHAW. Asking me this now if it was true. If you had asked me a
month ago I would have.

Mr. DULLES. Could they have been caused by one bullet, in your opinion?

Dr. SHAW. They could.

Mr. McCLOY. I gather that what the witness is saying is that it is
possible that they might have been caused by one bullet. But that he
has no firm opinion now that they were.

Mr. DULLES. As I understand it too. Is our understanding correct?

Dr. SHAW. That is correct.

Senator COOPER. When you say all three are you referring to the wounds
you have just described to the chest, the wound in the wrist, and also
the wound in the thigh?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Senator COOPER. It was possible?

Dr. SHAW. Our original assumption, Senator Cooper, was that the
Governor was approximately in this attitude at the time he was----

Senator COOPER. What attitude is that now?

Dr. SHAW. This is an attitude sitting in a jump seat as we know he
was, upright, with his right forearm held across the lower portion of
the chest. In this position, the trajectory of the bullet could have
caused the wound of entrance, the wound of exit, struck his wrist and
proceeded on into the left thigh. But although this is a possibility,
I can't give a firm opinion that this is the actual way in which it
occurred.

Mr. SPECTER. If it pleases the Commission, we propose to go through
that in this testimony; and we have already started to mark other
exhibits in sequence on the clothing. So that it will be more
systematic, we plan to proceed with the identification of clothing and
then go on to the composite diagram which explains the first hypothesis
of Dr. Shaw and the other doctors of Parkland. And then proceed from
that, as I intend to do, with an examination of the bullet, which will
explore the thinking of the doctor on that subject.

Dr. Shaw, for our record, I will hand you Commission Exhibit No. 684
and ask you if that is a picture of the reverse side of the coat, which
we will later prove to have been worn by Governor Connally, the coat
which is before you?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, appears on the back of that coat and
also on the picture in line with the wound which you have described on
the Governor's posterior chest?

Dr. SHAW. The picture--the coat and the picture of the coat, show a
rent in the back of the coat approximately 2-centimeters medial to
the point where the sleeve has been joined to the main portion of the
garment.

The lighter-colored material of the lining of the coat can be seen
through this rent in the coat.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, I show you a shirt, subject to later proof that
it was the shirt worn by Governor Connally, together with a photograph
marked "Commission Exhibit No. 685," and ask you if that is a picture
of that shirt, the back side of the shirt?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it is a picture of the back side of the shirt. However,
in this particular picture I am not able to make out the hole in the
shirt very well.

Now I see it, I believe; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the hole as you see it to exist in the
shirt? Aside from what you see on the picture, what hole do you observe
on the back of the shirt itself?

Dr. SHAW. On the back of the shirt itself there is a hole, a punched
out area of the shirt which is a little more than a centimeter in its
greater diameter. The whole shirt is soiled by brown stains which could
have been due to blood.

Mr. SPECTER. How does the hole in the back of the shirt correspond with
the wound on the Governor's back?

Dr. SHAW. It does correspond exactly.

Mr. SPECTER. Now turning the same shirt over to the front side, I
ask you if the photograph, marked "Commission Exhibit No. 386," is a
picture of the front side of this shirt?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. What does the picture of the shirt show with respect to a
hole, if any, on the right side of the front of the shirt?

Dr. SHAW. The picture and the shirt show on the right side a much
larger rent in the garment with the rent being approximately 4
centimeters in its largest diameter.

Mr. SPECTER. What wound, if any, did the Governor sustain on his thigh,
Dr. Shaw?

Mr. DULLES. Just one moment, are you leaving this?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder whether or not it would not be desirable for
the doctor to put on this photograph where these holes are, because
they are not at all clear for the future if we want to study those
photographs.

Dr. SHAW. This one is not so hard.

Mr. DULLES. That one appears but the other one doesn't appear and I
think it would be very helpful.

Dr. SHAW. How would you like to have me outline this?

Mr. SPECTER. Draw a red circle of what you conceive to be the hole
there, Doctor.

Mr. DULLES. The actual hole is not nearly as big as your circle, it is
the darkened area inside that circle, is it not?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; the darkened area is enclosed by the circle.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to note on the photograph of the back of the
shirt, 685?

Will you draw a red circle around the area of the hole on the
photograph then, Dr. Shaw?

Mr. DULLES. Would you just initial those two circles, if you can.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, what wounds, if any, did the Governor sustain on
his left thigh?

Dr. SHAW. He sustained a small puncture-type wound on the medial aspect
of the left thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to examine that closely?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to examine it sufficiently to
ascertain its location on the left thigh?

Dr. SHAW. No; I didn't examine it that closely, except for its general
location.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was it with respect to a general location then on
the Governor's thigh?

Dr. SHAW. It is on the medial anterior aspect of the thigh.

Mr. DULLES. Nontechnically, what does it mean?

Dr. SHAW. Well, above, slightly above, between, in other words, the
medial aspect would be the aspect toward the middle of the body, but as
far as being how many centimeters or inches it is from the knee and the
groin, I am not absolutely sure.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a pair of trousers which we shall later
identify as being those worn by the Governor. I will, first of all, ask
you if a photograph bearing Commission Exhibit No. 687 is a picture of
those trousers?

Dr. SHAW. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. And what hole, if any did you observe on the trousers and
on the picture of the trousers?

Dr. SHAW. There is a hole in the garment that has been made by some
instrument which has carried away a part of the Governor's garment. In
other words, it is not a tear but is a punched out hole, and this is
approximately 4 centimeters on the inner aspect from the crease of the
trousers.

Mr. DULLES. Can you tell where the knee is there and how far above the
knee approximately?

Dr. SHAW. I can't tell exactly.

Mr. DULLES. I guess you can't tell.

Dr. SHAW. From the crotch I would say it would be slightly, it is a
little hard to tell, slightly more toward the knee than the groin.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that hole in the left leg of the trousers match up to
the wound on the left thigh of the Governor?

Dr. SHAW. To the best of my recollection it does.

Mr. DULLES. Are there any other perforations in these trousers at all,
any other holes?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. DULLES. So that means that whatever made the hole on the front side
did not come through and make a hole anywhere else in the trousers?

Dr. SHAW. That is correct. It had to be a penetrating wound and not a
perforating wound, it didn't go on through.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you turn those trousers over, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. I believe we had already looked at it.

Mr. SPECTER. On the reverse side, and state whether or not this picture
bearing Commission Exhibit No. 688 accurately depicts the reverse side
of the trousers?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it does.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any hole shown either on the picture or on the
trousers themselves?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, I now show you a body diagram which is marked
"Commission Exhibit No. 689."

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question before you ask that question?

When you first saw Governor Connally in the emergency room was he
dressed or undressed?

Dr. SHAW. His trousers were still on. He had his shorts on, I should
say, Senator Cooper, but his coat, shirt, and trousers had been removed.

Mr. SPECTER. Were his clothes anywhere in the vicinity where you could
have seen them?

Dr. SHAW. No; I never saw them. This is the first time that I saw them.

Mr. SPECTER. That is earlier today when you examined them in this room?

Dr. SHAW. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 689, is that a drawing
which was prepared, after consultation with you, representing the
earlier theory of all of the Governor's wounds having been inflicted by
a single missile?

Dr. SHAW. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. With reference to that diagram, would you explain the
position that you had earlier thought the Governor to have been in when
he was wounded here?

Dr. SHAW. We felt that the Governor was in an upright sitting position,
and at the time of wounding was turning slightly to the right. This
would bring the three wounds, as we know them, the wound in the chest,
the wound in the wrist, and the wound in the thigh into a line assuming
that the right forearm was held against the lower right chest in front.

The line of inclination of this particular diagram is a little more
sharply downward than is probably correct in view of the inclination of
the ribs of the chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you redraw that line, Dr. Shaw, to conform with what
you believe to be----

Dr. SHAW. The fact that the muscle bundles on either side of the
fifth rib were not damaged meant that the missile to strip away 10
centimeters of the rib had to follow this rib pretty much along its
line of inclination.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you could use that red pencil to make it a
little clearer for us?

Dr. SHAW. I think these would probably work well on this paper. Perhaps
this isn't a tremendous point but it slopes just a little too much.

Mr. SPECTER. You have initialed that to show your incline?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the wound you described on the thigh, Dr.
Shaw, was there any point of exit as to that wound?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one more question there, how deep was the wound
of entry, could you tell at all?

Dr. SHAW. Mr. Dulles, I didn't examine the wound of the thigh so I
can't testify as to that. Dr. Gregory, I think, was there at the time
that the debris was carried out and he may have more knowledge than I
have.

Mr. DULLES. We will hear Dr. Gregory later?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; he is scheduled to testify as soon as Dr. Shaw
concludes.

Dr. Shaw, I now show you Commission Exhibit 399 which has heretofore
been identified as being a virtually whole bullet weighing 158 grains.

May I say for the record, that in the depositions which have been taken
in Parkland Hospital, that we have ascertained, and those depositions
are part of the overall record, that is the bullet which came from the
stretcher of Governor Connally.

First, Dr. Shaw, have you had a chance to examine that bullet earlier
today?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I examined it this morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible that the bullet which went through the
Governor's chest could have emerged being as fully intact as that
bullet is?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I believe it is possible because of the fact that the
bullet struck the fifth rib at a very acute angle and struck a portion
of the rib which would not offer a great amount of resistance.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that bullet appear to you to have any of its metal
flaked off?

Dr. SHAW. I have been told that the one point on the nose of this
bullet that is deformed was cut off for purposes of examination.
With that information, I would have to say that this bullet has lost
literally none of its substance.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the wound on the thigh, could that bullet have
gone into the Governor's thigh without causing any more damage than
appears on the face of that bullet?

Dr. SHAW. If it was a spent bullet; yes. As far as the bullet is
concerned it could have caused the Governor's thigh wound as a spent
missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Why do you say it is a spent missile, would you elaborate
on what your thinking is on that issue?

Dr. SHAW. Only from what I have been told by Dr. Shires and Dr.
Gregory, that the depth of the wound was only into the subcutaneous
tissue, not actually into the muscle of the leg, so it meant that
missile had penetrated for a very short period. Am I quoting you
correctly, Dr. Gregory?

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show Dr. Gregory is present during this
testimony and----

Dr. GREGORY. I will say yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And indicates in the affirmative. Do you have sufficient
knowledge of the wound of the wrist to render an opinion as to whether
that bullet could have gone through Governor Connally's wrist and
emerged being as much intact as it is?

Dr. SHAW. I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, assume if you will certain facts to be true
in hypothetical form, that is, that the President was struck in the
upper portion of the back or lower portion of the neck with a 6.5-mm.
missile passing between the strap muscles of the President's neck,
proceeding through a facia channel striking no bones, not violating
the pleural cavity, and emerging through the anterior third of the
neck, with the missile having been fired from a weapon having a muzzle
velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the muzzle being
approximately 100 to 250 feet from the President's body; that the
missile was a copper jacketed bullet. Would it be possible for that
bullet to have then proceeded approximately 4 or 5 feet and then would
it be possible for it to have struck Governor Connally in the back and
have inflicted the wound which you have described on the posterior
aspect of his chest, and also on the anterior aspect of his chest?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what would your reason be for giving an affirmative
answer to that question, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. SHAW. Because I would feel that a missile with this velocity and
weight striking no more than the soft tissues of the neck would have
adequate velocity and mass to inflict the wound that we found on the
Governor's chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, without respect to whether or not the bullet
identified as Commission Exhibit 399 is or is not the one which
inflicted the wound on the Governor, is it possible that a missile
similar to the one which I have just described in the hypothetical
question could have inflicted all of the Governor's wounds in
accordance with the theory which you have outlined on Commission
Exhibit No. 689?

Dr. SHAW. Assuming that it also had passed through the President's neck
you mean?

Mr. SPECTER. No; I had not added that factor in. I will in the next
question.

Dr. SHAW. All right. As far as the wounds of the chest are concerned,
I feel that this bullet could have inflicted those wounds. But the
examination of the wrist both by X-ray and at the time of surgery
showed some fragments of metal that make it difficult to believe that
the same missile could have caused these two wounds. There seems to be
more than three grains of metal missing as far as the--I mean in the
wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Your answer there, though, depends upon the assumption
that the bullet which we have identified as Exhibit 399 is the bullet
which did the damage to the Governor. Aside from whether or not that
is the bullet which inflicted the Governor's wounds.

Dr. SHAW. I see.

Mr. SPECTER. Could a bullet traveling in the path which I have
described in the prior hypothetical question, have inflicted all of the
wounds on the Governor?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And so far as the velocity and the dimension of the bullet
are concerned, is it possible that the same bullet could have gone
through the President in the way that I have described and proceed
through the Governor causing all of his wounds without regard to
whether or not it was bullet 399?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When you started to comment about it not being possible,
was that in reference to the existing mass and shape of bullet 399?

Dr. SHAW. I thought you were referring directly to the bullet shown as
Exhibit 399.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion as to whether bullet 399 could have
inflicted all of the wounds on the Governor, then, without respect at
this point to the wound of the President's neck?

Dr. SHAW. I feel that there would be some difficulty in explaining all
of the wounds as being inflicted by bullet Exhibit 399 without causing
more in the way of loss of substance to the bullet or deformation of
the bullet.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, have you had an opportunity today here in the
Commission building to view the movies which we referred to as the
Zapruder movies and the slides taken from these movies?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if any, light did those movies shed on your
evaluation and opinions on this matter with respect to the wounds of
the Governor?

Dr. SHAW. Well, my main interest was to try to place the time that the
Governor was struck by the bullet which inflicted the wound on his
chest in reference to the sequence of the three shots, as has been
described to us.

(At this point the Chief Justice entered the hearing room.)

This meant trying to carefully examine the position of the Governor's
body in the car so that it would fall in line with what we knew the
trajectory must be for this bullet coming from the point where it has
been indicated it did come from. And in trying to place this actual
frame that these frames are numbered when the Governor was hit, my
opinion was that it was frame number, let's see, I think it was No. 36.

Mr. SPECTER. 236?

Dr. SHAW. 236, give or take 1 or 2 frames. It was right in 35, 36, 37,
perhaps.

Mr. SPECTER. I have heretofore asked you questions about what
possibly could have happened in terms of the various combinations of
possibilities on missiles striking the Governor in relationship to
striking the President as well. Do you have any opinion as to what, in
fact, did happen?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. From the pictures, from the conversation with Governor
Connally and Mrs. Connally, it seems that the first bullet hit the
President in the shoulder and perforated the neck, but this was not the
bullet that Governor Connally feels hit him; and in the sequence of
films I think it is hard to say that the first bullet hit both of these
men almost simultaneously.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that view based on the information which Governor
Connally provided to you?

Dr. SHAW. Largely.

Mr. SPECTER. As opposed to any objectively determinable facts from the
bullets, the situs of the wounds or your viewing of the pictures?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. I was influenced a great deal by what Governor Connally
knew about his movements in the car at this particular time.

Mr. DULLES. You have indicated a certain angle of declination on this
chart here which the Chief Justice has.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know enough about the angle of declination of the
bullet that hit the President to judge at all whether these two angles
of declination are consistent?

Dr. SHAW. We know that the angle of declination was a downward one from
back to front so that I think this is consistent with the angle of
declination of the wound that the Governor sustained.

Senator COOPER. Are you speaking of the angle of declination in the
President's body?

Dr. SHAW. Of the first wound?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. SHAW. First wound.

Mr. SPECTER. What you have actually seen from pictures to show the
angle of declination?

Dr. SHAW. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. In the wounds in the President's body?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; that is right. I did not examine the President.

Mr. DULLES. And that angle taking into account say the 4 feet
difference between where the President was sitting and where the
Governor was sitting, would be consistent with the point of entry of
the Governor's body as you have shown it?

Dr. SHAW. The jump seat in the car, as we could see, placed the
Governor sitting at a lower level than the President, and I think
conceivably these two wounds could have been caused by the same bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add, Dr. Shaw, which you
think would be helpful to the Commission in any way?

Dr. SHAW. I don't believe so Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission then I would like to move
into evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 679 and 680, and then reserve
Nos. 681 and 682 until we get the photographs of the X-rays and I now
move for admission into evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 683 through
689.

Senator COOPER. They have all been identified, have they?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; during the course of Dr. Shaw's testimony.

Senator COOPER. It is ordered then that these exhibits be received in
the record.

(The documents referred to, previously identified as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 679, 680, and 683-689 for identification were received in
evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. Just one or two questions. It is perfectly clear, Doctor,
that the wound, the lethal wound on the President did not--the bullet
that caused the lethal wound on the President, did not cause any wounds
on Governor Connally, in your opinion?

Dr. SHAW. Mr. McCloy, I couldn't say that from my knowledge.

Mr. McCLOY. We are talking about the, following up what Mr. Dulles
said about the angle of declination, the wound that came through the
President's collar, you said was consistent between the same bullet. I
just wondered whether under all the circumstances that you know about
the President's head wound on the top that would also be consistent
with a wound in Governor Connally's body?

Dr. SHAW. On the chest, yes; I am not so sure about the wrist. I can't
quite place where his wrist was at the time his chest was struck.

Mr. McCLOY. Now perhaps this is Dr. Gregory's testimony, that is the
full description of the wrist wound, that would be his rather than your
testimony?

Dr. SHAW. I think he could throw just as much light on it as I could.
And more in certain aspects.

Mr. McCLOY. It did hit bone?

Dr. SHAW. Obviously.

Mr. McCLOY. And there must have been a considerable diminution in the
velocity of the bullet after penetrating through the wrist?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. The wound inflicted on it, the chest wound on Governor
Connally, if you move that an inch or two, 1 inch or the other, could
that have been lethal, go through an area that could easily have been
lethal?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; of course, if it had been moved more medially it could
have struck the heart and the great vessels.

Mr. McCLOY. Let me ask you this, Doctor, in your experience with
gunshot wounds, is it possible for a man to be hit sometime before he
realizes it?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. There can be a delay in the sensory reaction.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes; so that a man can think as of a given instant he was
not hit, and when actually he could have been hit.

Dr. SHAW. There can be an extending sensation and then just a gradual
building up of a feeling of severe injury.

Mr. McCLOY. But there could be a delay in any appreciable reaction
between the time of the impact of the bullet and the occurrence?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; but in the case of a wound which strikes a bony
substance such as a rib, usually the reaction is quite prompt.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes.

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Now, you have indicated, I think, that this bullet traveled
along, hit and traveled along the path of the rib, is that right?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Is it possible that it could have not, the actual bullet
could not have hit the rib at all but it might have been the expanding
flesh that would cause the wound or the proper contusion, I guess you
would call it on the rib itself?

Dr. SHAW. I think we would have to postulate that the bullet hit the
rib itself by the neat way in which it stripped the rib out without
doing much damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it.

Mr. McCLOY. Was--up until you gave him the anesthetic--the Governor was
fully conscious, was he?

Dr. SHAW. I would not say fully, but he was responsive. He would answer
questions.

Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have.

The CHAIRMAN. I have no questions of the doctor.

Mr. DULLES. There were no questions put to him that were significant as
far as our testimony is concerned?

Dr. SHAW. No; we really don't have to question him much. Our problem
was pretty clearcut, and he told us it hurt and that was about his only
response as far as----

Senator COOPER. Could I ask you a question, doctor?

I think you said from the time you came into the emergency room and the
time you went to the operating room was about 5 minutes?

Dr. SHAW. Yes; it was just the time that it took to ask a few simple
questions, what has been done so far, and has the operating room been
alerted, and then I went out and talked to Mrs. Connally, just very
briefly, I told her what the problem was in respect to the Governor and
what we were going to have to do about it and she said to go ahead with
anything that was necessary. So this couldn't have taken more than 5
minutes or so.

Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything or did anyone say anything there about
the circumstances of the shooting?

Dr. SHAW. Not at that time.

Mr. DULLES. Either of Governor Connally or the President?

Dr. SHAW. Not at that time. All of our conversation was later.

Mr. DULLES. Was the President in the same room?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did you see him?

Dr. SHAW. I only saw his shoes and his feet. He was in the room
immediately opposite. As I came into the hallway, I could recognize
that the President was on it, in the room to my right. I knew that my
problem was concerned with Governor Connally, and I turned and went
into the room where I saw that he was.

Mr. DULLES. Did you hear at that time or have any knowledge, of a
bullet which had been found on the stretcher?

Dr. SHAW. No; this was later knowledge.

Mr. DULLES. When did you first hear that?

(At this point Senator Russell entered the hearing room.)

Dr. SHAW. This information was first given to me by a man from the
Secret Service who interviewed me in my office several weeks later. It
is the first time I knew about any bullet being recovered.

Senator COOPER. I think, of course, it is evident from your testimony
you have had wide experience in chest wounds and bullet wounds in the
chest.

What experience have you had in, say, the field of ballistics? Would
this experience--you have been dealing in chest wounds caused by
bullets--have provided you knowledge also about the characteristics of
missiles, particularly bullets of this type?

Dr. SHAW. No; Senator. I believe that my information about ballistics
is just that of an average layman, no more. Perhaps a little more since
I have seen deformed bullets from wounds, but I haven't gone into that
aspect of wounds.

Senator COOPER. In the answers to the hypothetical questions that were
addressed to you, based upon the only actual knowledge which you could
base that answer, was the fact that you had performed the operation on
the wound caused in the chest, on the wound in the chest?

Dr. SHAW. That is true. I have seen many bullets that have passed
through bodies or have penetrated bodies and have struck bone and I
know manners from which they are deformed but I know very little about
the caliber of bullets, the velocity of bullets, many things that other
people have much more knowledge of than I have.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Dr. Shaw.

TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORY

Senator COOPER. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are going to
give to this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. GREGORY. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. GREGORY. Doctor Charles Francis Gregory.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. GREGORY. I am a physician and surgeon.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline your educational background briefly,
please?

Dr. GREGORY. I received a bachelor of science degree from the
University of Indiana in 1941, and an M.D. degree in medicine from the
Indiana University School of Medicine in 1944.

Following 1-year internship and a tour of duty in the U.S. Navy, I
undertook 5 years of postgraduate training in orthopedic surgery at
Indiana University Medical Center.

Upon completing that training I became a member of the faculty at
Indiana University Medical School, and remained so until November of
1952, when I reentered the U.S. Navy for another 20 months.

In 1956 I was appointed professor and then chairman of the Division
of Orthopedic Surgery at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical
School, where I presently am.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you certificated by the American Board of Orthopedic
Surgery?

Dr. GREGORY. I am, in 1953.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience, if any, have you had with bullet wounds,
Doctor?

Dr. GREGORY. Beyond the rather indigenous nature of such wounds in the
main teaching hospital at Southwestern Medical School, my experience
has covered a tour of duty in the Navy during World War II, and a
considerably more active period of time in the Korean war in support of
the 1st Marine Corps Division.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the total number of
bullet wounds you have had an opportunity to observe and treat?

Dr. GREGORY. I would estimate that I have dealt directly with
approximately 500 such wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you a licensed doctor in the State of Texas at the
present time?

Dr. GREGORY. I am.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties in a general way back on November
22, 1963, with Parkland Hospital?

Dr. GREGORY. On that date, November 22, 1963, I was seeing patients in
the health service of the adjacent medical school building when about
noon I was advised that the President of the United States had been
admitted to Parkland Hospital due to gunshot injuries.

I went immediately to the emergency room area of the Parkland Hospital,
and upon gaining admission to the emergency room, I encountered the
hospital superintendent.

I inquired of him then as to whether or not the President had injuries
which might require my attention and he indicated that they were not of
that nature.

I, therefore, took a number of unnecessary onlookers like myself from
the emergency area in order to reduce the confusion, and I went to the
fifth floor of the hospital, which is the orthopedic ward.

And after attending a number of patients there, I prepared to leave the
hospital, but stopped by the surgical suite on my way out, to check and
see if any need for my services might have come up, and encountered
there Dr. Shaw who indicated to me that Governor Connally had also been
injured, and that these included injuries to his extremities for which
I would be retained.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Shaw then call upon you to perform operative aid
for Governor Connally?

Dr. GREGORY. He did.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did you first see Governor Connally then?

Dr. GREGORY. I first saw Governor Connally after Dr. Shaw had prepared
him and draped him for the surgical procedures which he carried out on
the Governor's chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have any opportunity to observe the wound on
the Governor's chest?

Dr. GREGORY. I could see the wounds on the Governor's chest, but I
could see them only through the apertures available in the surgical
drapes, and therefore I had difficulty orienting the exact positions of
the wounds, except for the wound identified as the wound of exit which
could be related to the nipple in the right chest which was exposed.

Mr. SPECTER. Now what did you observe with respect to the wound on the
Governor's wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. I did not have an opportunity to examine the wound on the
Governor's wrist until Dr. Shaw had completed his surgical treatment of
the Governor's chest wound.

At that time he was turned to his back and it was possible to examine
both the right upper extremity and the left lower extremity for wounds
of the wrist and left thigh respectively.

The right wrist was the site of a perforating wound, which by
assumption began on a dorsal lateral surface. In lay terms this is
the back of the hand on the thumb side at a point approximately 5
centimeters above the wrist joint.

There is a second wound presumed to be the wound of exit which lay in
the midline of the wrist on its palmar surface about 2 centimeters,
something less than 1 inch above the wrist crease, the most distal
wrist crease.

Mr. SPECTER. You say that the wound on the dorsal or back side of the
wrist you assume to be the wound of entrance. What factors, if any, led
you to that assumption?

Dr. GREGORY. I assumed it to be a wound of entrance because of the
general ragged appearance of the wound, but for other reasons which I
can delineate in a lighter description which came to light during the
operative procedure and which are also hallmarked to a certain extent
by the X-rays.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you proceed to tell us, even though it is out of
sequence, what those factors, later determined to be, were which led
you to assume that it was the wound of entrance?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes. Assuming that the wrist wound, which included a
shattering fracture of the wrist bone, of the radial bone just above
the wrist, was produced by a missile there were found in the vicinity
of the wound two things which led me to believe that it passed from
the dorsal or back side to the volar. The first of these----

Mr. SPECTER. When you say volar what do you mean by that?

Dr. GREGORY. The palm side.

Mr. SPECTER. Proceed.

Dr. GREGORY. The first of these was evidence of clothing, bits of
thread and cloth, apparently from a dark suit or something of that sort
which had been carried into the wound, from the skin into the region of
the bone.

The second of these were two or three small fragments of metal which
presumably were shed by the missile after their encounter with the firm
substance which is bone.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the bits of cloth which you describe, have you had
an opportunity earlier today to examine a coat, heretofore identified
and marked by a picture bearing Commission Exhibit No. 683, which we
will have later testimony on as being Governor Connally's coat?

Dr. GREGORY. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did your examination disclose with
respect to the wound of the right wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. Well, the right sleeve of the coat has a tear in it close
to the margin at a point which is, I think, commensurate with the
location of the dorsal surface, the back side of the wrist, forearm
where the two may have been superimposed and both damaged by the same
penetrating body.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the nature of the material of the suit coat the same as
that which you found in the wound of the wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. It is. As a matter of fact, at the time that the wound was
treated, and the cloth was found, the speculation was made as to the
kind of--the color of the suit the Governor was wearing and moreover
the thread was almost identifiable as mohair or raw silk or something
of that nature and entirely consistent with this fabric.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the color, which you speculated about, the same as
which you see in this jacket?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; it was my impression it was black or either dark blue.

Mr. SPECTER. You say there was something in the X-ray work which led
you to further conclude that that was the wound of entrance?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you proceed now to show the Commission those X-rays,
please?

Dr. GREGORY. This is an X-ray made in the lateral view of the
Governor's wrist at the time he was brought to the hospital prior to
any surgical intervention.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the first X-ray, Dr. Gregory, would you identify the
date when it was taken?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; this film was made on November 22, 1963, as indicated
by a pencil marking on that film, and it further bears the assigned
X-ray number of 219-992, which was that of the patient, Governor John
Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission we shall reserve number 690
and 691 for later identification of those photographs and X-rays.

Senator COOPER. So ordered.

Dr. GREGORY. If you will notice in addition to the apparent fracture of
this, the radial bone here.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you now describing a second X-ray?

Dr. GREGORY. No; these are two taken at right angle of the Governor's
wrist prior to attention. These are diagnostic film, one made with the
hand palm down and one with the hand turned 90°.

Mr. SPECTER. Do they bear identical numbers then?

Dr. GREGORY. They do.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any mark on them at the present time which
distinguishes them by way of marking or number?

Dr. GREGORY. Other than the pencil markings on each of these two films
and my own which I attached last evening for convenience.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you mark one of them as "A" and one as "B," so that
when you describe them here we will know which you are referring to?

Dr. GREGORY. Very well. Let the record show that "A" stands for the
anteroposterior view, Exhibit No. 691, and "B" stands for the lateral
view, Exhibit No. 690, of the right wrist and forearm. "A" then
demonstrates a comminuted fracture of the wrist with three fragments.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by comminuted?

Dr. GREGORY. Comminuted refers to shattering, to break into more than
two pieces, specifically many pieces, and if I may, I can point out
there is a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment
here, and there are several smaller fragments lying in the center of
these three larger ones.

Mr. SPECTER. How many fragments are there in total, sir, in your
opinion?

Dr. GREGORY. I would judge from this view that counting each isolated
fragment there are fully seven or eight, and experience has taught that
when these things are dismantled directly under direct vision that
there very obviously may be more than that.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you continue to describe what that X-ray shows with
respect to metallic fragments, if any?

Dr. GREGORY. Three shadows are identified as representing metallic
fragments. There are other light shadows in this film which are
identified or interpreted as being artifacts.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the basis of distinction between that which is an
artifact and that which is a real shadow of the metallic substance?

Dr. GREGORY. A real shadow of metallic substance persist and be seen in
other views, other X-ray copies, whereas artifacts which are produced
by irregularities either in the film or film carrier will vary from one
X-ray to another.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it your view that these other X-ray films led you to
believe that those are, in fact, metallic substances?

Dr. GREGORY. As a matter of fact, it is the mate to this very film,
the lateral view marked "B", which shows the same three fragments in
essentially the same relationship to the various levels of the forearm
that leads me to believe that these do, in fact, represent metallic
fragments.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as specifically as you can what those
metallic fragments are by way of size and shape, sir?

Dr. GREGORY. I would identify these fragments as varying from
five-tenths of a millimeter in diameter to approximately 2 millimeters
in diameter, and each fragment is no more than a half millimeter in
thickness. They would represent in lay terms flakes, flakes of metal.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your estimate be as to their weight in total?

Dr. GREGORY. I would estimate that they would be weighed in micrograms
which is very small amount of weight. I don't know how to reduce it to
ordinary equivalents for you.

It is the kind of weighing that requires a microadjustable scale, which
means that it is something less than the weight of a postage stamp.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all the metallic substances which
you observed either visually or through the X-rays in the Governor's
wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. These are the three metallic substance items which I saw.

Now if I may use these to indicate why I view the path as being from
dorsal to volar, from the back of the wrist to the palm side, these
have been shed on the volar side suggesting that contact with this bone
resulted in there being flaked off, as the remainder of the missile
emerged from the volar side leaving the small flakes behind.

Mr. SPECTER. Are the X-rays helpful in any other way in ascertaining
the point of entry and the point of exit?

Dr. GREGORY. There is a suggestion to be seen in Exhibit B, the lateral
view, a suggestion of the pathway as seen by distortion of soft
tissues. This has become a bit irregular on the dorsal side. There is
evidence of air in the tissues on this side suggesting that the pathway
was something like this.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you say indications of air on which side did you
mean by "this side," Doctor?

Dr. GREGORY. Air distally on the volar side. There is some evidence
of air in the tissue on the volar side too but they are at different
levels and this suggests that they gained access to the tissue plans in
this fashion.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you elaborate on just what do you mean by "this
fashion," indicating the distinctions on the level of the air which
suggest that conclusion to you?

Dr. GREGORY. Recall that I suggested that the wound of entrance,
certainly the dorsal wound lay some distance, 5 cm. above the wrist
joint, approximately here, that the second wound considered to be the
wound of exit was only 2 cm. above this point, making the pathway an
oblique one.

Mr. DULLES. Would you show that on your own wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. We have to explain this a little for the record but I think
it would be very useful.

Dr. GREGORY. I think you will have an opportunity to see the real thing
a little later if the Governor makes his appearance here.

But the wound of entry I considered to be, although on his right hand,
of course, to be approximately at this point on the wrist, and the
wound of exit here, which is about the right level for my coat sleeve
held at a casual position.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show you made two red marks on your wrist,
which are in the same position as that which you have described
heretofore in technical language.

Dr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you finished the complete explanation on the indicator
from the air levels which you had mentioned before?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes. The air is a little bit more visible to the dorsal
surface, closer to the skin here, not so close down at the lower
portion, not so much tissue destruction had occurred at the point of
the emergence.

Mr. SPECTER. Before proceeding to the other factors indicating point
of entry and point of exit, Dr. Gregory, I call your attention to
Commission Exhibit No. 399, which is a bullet and ask you first if you
have had an opportunity to examine that earlier today?

Dr. GREGORY. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. What opinion, if any, do you have as to whether that
bullet could have produced the wound on the Governor's right wrist and
remained as intact as it is at the present time?

Dr. GREGORY. In examining this bullet, I find a small flake has been
either knocked off or removed from the rounded end of the missile.

(At this point Representative Boggs entered the room.)

I was told that this was removed for the purpose of analysis. The only
other deformity which I find is at the base of the missile at the
point where it joined the cartridge carrying the powder, I presume,
and this is somewhat flattened and deflected, distorted. There is some
irregularity of the darker metal within which I presume to represent
lead.

The only way that this missile could have produced this wound in
my view, was to have entered the wrist backward. Now, this is not
inconsistent with one of the characteristics known for missiles which
is to tumble. All missiles in flight have two motions normally, a
linear motion from the muzzle of the gun to the target, a second motion
which is a spinning motion having to do with maintaining the integrity
of the initial linear direction, but if they strike an object they
may be caused to turn in their path and tumble end over, and if they
do, they tend to produce a greater amount of destruction within the
strike time or the target, and they could possibly, if tumbling in air
upon emergence, tumble into another target backward. That is the only
possible explanation I could offer to correlate this missile with this
particular wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there sufficient metallic substance missing from the
back or rear end of that bullet to account for the metallic substance
which you have described in the Governor's wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. It is possible but I don't know enough about the structure
of bullets or this one in particular, to know what is a normal
complement of lead or for this particular missile. It is irregular, but
how much it may have lost, I have no idea.

Mr. DULLES. Would the nature of the entry wound give you any indication
as to whether it entered backward or whether it entered forward?

Dr. GREGORY. My initial impression was that whatever produced the wound
of the wrist was an irregular object, certainly not smooth nosed as
the business end of this particular bullet is because of two things.
The size of the wound of entrance, and the fact that it is irregular
surfaced permitted it to pick up organic debris, materials, threads,
and carry them into the wound with it.

Now, you will note that Dr. Shaw earlier in his testimony and in all of
my conversations with him, never did indicate that there was any such
loss of material into the wrist, nor does the back of this coat which
I have examined show that it lost significant amounts of cloth but I
think the tear in this coat sleeve does imply that there were bits of
fabric lost, and I think those were resident in the wrist. I think we
recovered them.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the back of that bullet characteristic of an irregular
missile so as to cause the wound in the wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. I would say that the back of this being flat and having
sharp edges is irregular, and would possibly tend to tear tissues more
than does an inclined plane such as this.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the back of the missile be sufficiently irregular to
have caused the wound of the right wrist, in your opinion?

Dr. GREGORY. I think it could have; yes. It is possible.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be consistent with your observations of the wrist
for that missile to have penetrated and gone through the right wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. It is possible; yes. It appears to me since the wound of
exit was a small laceration, that much of the energy of the missile
that struck the Governor's wrist was expended in breaking the bone
reducing its velocity sufficient so that while it could make an
emergence through the underlying soft tissues on his wrist, it did not
do great damage to them.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any indication from the extent of the damage
to the wrist whether the bullet was pristine, that is: was the wrist
struck first in flight or whether there had been some reduction in the
velocity of the missile prior to striking the wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. I would offer this opinion about a high velocity rifle
bullet striking a forearm.

Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to inject factors which we have not put on the
record although it has been brought to your attention previously:
Assume this is a 6.5-millimeter missile which was shot from a rifle
having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with
a distance of approximately 160 to 200 feet between the weapon and the
victim; and answer the prior question, if you would, Dr. Gregory, with
those factors in mind?

Dr. GREGORY. I would fully expect the first object struck by that
missile to be very badly damaged, and especially if it were a rigid
bone such as the wrist bone is, to literally blow it apart. I have had
some experience with rifle wound injuries of the forearm produced by
this type of missile, and the last two which I attended myself have
culminated in amputation of the limb because of the extensive damage
produced by the missile as it passed through the arm.

Considerably more than was evidenced in the Governor's case either by
examination of the limb itself or an examination of these X-rays.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the experience you had which you experienced
which resulted in amputations, what was the range between the weapon
and the victim's limb, if you know?

Dr. GREGORY. The range in those two instances, I concede was
considerably shorter but I cannot give you the specific range. By short
I mean perhaps no more than 15 or 20 yards at the most.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the difference between the 15 or 20 yards and the
160 to 250 feet make any difference in your opinion, though, as to the
damage which would be inflicted on the wrist had that bullet struck it
as the first point of impact?

Dr. GREGORY. No, sir; I don't think it would have made that much
difference.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the color was of the fragments in the
wrist of the Governor, Dr. Gregory?

Dr. GREGORY. As I recall them they were lead colored, silvery, of that
color. I did not recall them as being either brass or copper.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other X-rays of the Governor's wrist which
would aid the Commission in its understanding of the injuries to the
wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. Only to indicate that there were two fragments of metal
retrieved in the course of dealing with this wound surgically.

For the subsequent X-rays of the same area, after the initial surgery
indicate that those fragments are no longer there.

And as I stated, I thought I had retrieved two of them. The major one
or ones now being missing. The small one related to the bone or most
closely related to the bone, and I will put back up here----

Mr. SPECTER. On the new X-rays which you put up, would you identify
them first by indicating the date the X-ray was taken?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; the date of the X-ray is the same, November 22,
1963, and they may be identified as Exhibit "C" anteroposterior view
postoperative, which is this one.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they bear the same numbers, Dr. Gregory?

Dr. GREGORY. They will bear the same numbers; yes.

Mr. DULLES. I think you had better get them marked.

We haven't got them marked yet "A," "B," and "C."

Representative BOGGS. Postoperative, these are after the operation?

Dr. GREGORY. These two. This one was made before the wound was dealt
with.

Mr. SPECTER. Which one?

Dr. GREGORY. "A" is the one made before the wound was dealt with
surgically.

Senator COOPER. Could you mark it 4 "A," "B," "C," and "D," Doctor?

Mr. McCLOY. Is that "B," we have had another "B" here, you know?

Dr. GREGORY. This is "C." "A" and "C" are comparable X-rays, one made
before and one made after the operation was carried out.

Before the operation, you will note a large fragment of metal
visible here, not visible in this one. You will also note a small
satellite fragment not visible here. A second piece of metal visible
preoperatively is still present postoperatively.

No effort incidentally is made to dissect for these fragments. They
are small, they are proverbial needles in hay stacks, and we know from
experience that small flakes of metal of this kind do not ordinarily
produce difficulty in the future, but that the extensive dissection
required to find them may produce such consequences and so we choose
to leave them inside unless we chance upon them, and on this occasion,
those bits of metal recovered were simply found by chance in the course
of removing necrotized material.

Other than that the X-rays have nothing more to offer so far as the
wrist is concerned.

Mr. SPECTER. May we then reserve 692 for "C" and 693 for "D"?

Dr. GREGORY. I will put the other marks on these.

Senator COOPER. So ordered.

Dr. GREGORY. For your convenience.

Mr. DULLES. Was the wound of exit in the wrist also jagged like the
wound of entry or was there, what differences were there between the
wound of entry and the wound of exit?

Dr. GREGORY. The wound of exit was disposed transversely across the
wrist exactly as I have it marked here. It was in the nature of a small
laceration, perhaps a centimeter and a half in length, about a half an
inch long, and it lay in the skin creases so that as you examined the
wrist casually it was a very innocent looking thing indeed, and it was
not until it was probed that its true nature in connection with the
remainder of the wound was evident.

Senator RUSSELL. When did you first see this bullet, Doctor, the one
you have just described in your testimony?

Dr. GREGORY. This bullet?

Senator RUSSELL. Yes.

Dr. GREGORY. This morning, sir.

Senator RUSSELL. You had never seen it until this morning?

Dr. GREGORY. I had never seen it before this time.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, what was then the relative size of the wounds
on the back and front side of the wrist itself?

Dr. GREGORY. As I recall them, the wound dimensions would be so far
as the wound on the back of the wrist is concerned about a half a
centimeter by two and a half centimeters in length. It was rather
linear in nature. The upper end of it having apparently lost some
tissue was gapping more than the lower portion of it.

Mr. SPECTER. How about on the volar or front side of the wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. The volar surface or palmar surface had a wound disclosed
transversely about a half centimeter in length and about 2 centimeters
above the flexion crease to the wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Then the wound on the dorsal or back side of the wrist was
a little larger than the wound on the volar or palm side of the wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; it was.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that characteristic in terms of entry and exit
wounds?

Dr. GREGORY. It is not at all characteristic of the entry wound of a
pristine missile which tends to make a small wound of entrance and
larger wound of exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it, however, characteristic of a missile which has had
its velocity substantially decreased?

Dr. GREGORY. I don't think that the exchange in the velocity will alter
the nature of the wound of entrance or exit excepting that if the
velocity is low enough the missile may simply manage to emerge or may
not emerge at all on the far side of the limb which has been struck.

Mr. DULLES. Would this be consistent with a tumbling bullet or a bullet
that had already tumbled and therefore entered back side too?

Dr. GREGORY. The wound of entrance is characteristic in my view of an
irregular missile in this case, an irregular missile which has tipped
itself off as being irregular by the nature of itself.

Mr. DULLES. What do you mean by irregular?

Dr. GREGORY. I mean one that has been distorted. It is in some way
angular, it has edges or sharp edges or something of this sort. It
is not rounded or pointed in the fashion of an ordinary missile. The
irregularity of it also, I submit, tends to pick up organic material
and carry it into the limb, and this is a very significant takeoff, in
my opinion.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the characteristics on the
Governor's wrist which indicate either the point of entry or the point
of exit?

Dr. GREGORY. There is one additional piece of information that is of
pertinence but I don't know how effectively it can be applied to the
nature of the missile. That is the fact that dorsal branch of the
radial nerve, a sensory nerve in this immediate vicinity was partially
transected together with one tendon leading to the thumb, which was
totally transected.

This could have been produced by a missile entering in the ordinary
fashion, undisturbed, undistorted. But again it is more in keeping with
an irregular surface which would tend to catch and tear a structure
rather than push it aside.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that then also indicate the wound of entrance where
that striking took place?

Dr. GREGORY. I believe it is more in keeping with it, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the thigh wound, what, if anything, did you observe
as to a wound on the thigh, Dr. Gregory?

Dr. GREGORY. I was apprised that the Governor had a wound of the thigh,
and I did examine it immediately the limb was available for it after
Dr. Shaw had completed the surgery.

The wound was located on the inner aspect of the thigh, a little to
the front surface about a third of the way up from the knee. The wound
appeared to me to be rounded, almost a puncture type of wound in
dimension about equal to a pencil eraser, about 6 mm.

I suspected that there might be a missile buried here and so an X-ray
was obtained of that limb, and----

Mr. SPECTER. Have you brought the X-ray with you?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. On what date was that X-ray taken?

Dr. GREGORY. This X-ray is marked as having been taken on November 22,
1963. It indicates that it was made of the left thigh, and it belongs
to John Connally, John G. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. That says "G" instead of "C"?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes. It appears to me to be a "G." The number again is
219-922.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the same number as the other X-rays bear?

Dr. GREGORY. I believe it is, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. May we reserve then Commission Exhibit No. 694 for that
X-ray?

Senator COOPER. It may be so done.

Dr. GREGORY. There are a series of these films. Would you like them
marked subsequently "E", "F," and "G"?

Mr. SPECTER. Insofar as you feel they are helpful in characterizing the
wounds, do mark them in that way.

Dr. GREGORY. All right.

This I understand is Exhibit E, then and it is a single X-ray made on
the anterior posterial view of Mr. Connally's thigh. The only thing
found is a very small fleck of metal marked with an arrow here. It is
that small, and almost likely to be overlooked. This was not consonant
with the kind of wound on the medial aspect of his thigh.

Our next natural assumption was that that missile having escaped from
the thigh had escaped the confines of this X-ray and lay somewhere
else. So that additional X-rays were made of the same date and I
submit two additional X-rays identified again as belonging to John G.
Connally, the left lower extremity, November 22, 1963, and these two
are numbered 218-922, and they are an anterial posterior view which I
will mark "F," and a lateral view which I will mark "G."

Mr. SPECTER. May we reserve 695 for "F," and 696 for "G"?

Senator COOPER. So ordered.

Dr. GREGORY. Careful examination of this set of X-rays illustrated
or demonstrates, I should say, a number of artificial lines, this is
one and there is one. These lines I think represent rather hurried
development of these films for they were taken under emergency
conditions. They were intended simply to let us know if there was
another missile in the Governor's limb where it might be located.

The only missile turned up is the same one seen in the original film
which lies directly opposite the area indicated as the site of the
missile wound or the wound in the thigh, but a fragment of metal,
again microscopic measuring about five-tenths of a millimeter by 2
millimeters, lies just beneath the skin, about a half inch on the
medial aspect of the thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the weight of that metallic
fragment?

Dr. GREGORY. This again would be in micrograms, postage stamp weight
thereabouts, not much more than that.

Mr. SPECTER. Could that fragment, in your opinion, have caused the
wound which you observed in the Governor's left thigh?

Dr. GREGORY. I do not believe it could have. The nature of the wound in
the left thigh was such that so small a fragment as this would not have
produced it and still have gone no further into the soft tissues than
it did.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the wound that you observed in the soft tissue of
the left thigh be consistent with having been made by a bullet such as
that identified as Commission Exhibit 399?

Dr. GREGORY. I think again that bullet, Exhibit 399, could very well
have struck the thigh in a reverse fashion and have shed a bit of its
lead core into the fascia immediately beneath the skin, yet never have
penetrated the thigh sufficiently so that it eventually was dislodged
and was found in the clothing.

I would like to add to that we were disconcerted by not finding a
missile at all. Here was our patient with three discernible wounds,
and no missile within him of sufficient magnitude to account for them,
and we suggested that someone ought to search his belongings and other
areas where he had been to see if it could be identified or found,
rather.

Mr. SPECTER. Had the missile gone through his wrist in reverse, would
it likely have continued in that same course until it reached his
thigh, in your opinion?

Dr. GREGORY. The missile that struck his wrist had sufficient energy
left after it passed through the radius to emerge from the soft tissues
on the under surface of the skin. It could have had enough to partially
enter his thigh, but not completely.

Mr. SPECTER. In the way which his thigh was wounded?

Dr. GREGORY. I believe so; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do, Dr. Gregory, with the missile fragments
which you removed from his wrists?

Dr. GREGORY. Those were turned over to the operating room nurse in
attendance with instructions that they should be presented to the
appropriate authorities present, probably a member of the Texas
Rangers, but that is as far as I went with it myself.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a part of a document heretofore identified
as Commission Exhibit 392, a two-page report which bears your name on
the second page, and I ask you if this is the report you made of the
operation on Governor Connally?

Dr. GREGORY. It appears to be the same; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Are the facts set forth therein true and correct?

Dr. GREGORY. In essence they are true and correct; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, does that report show the name of the nurse
to whom you turned over the metallic fragments?

Dr. GREGORY. There are two nurses who are identified on this page. One
is the scrub nurse, Miss Rutherford, and the second is the circulating
nurse, Mrs. Schrader.

Mr. SPECTER. And is one or the other the nurse to whom you turned over
the metallic fragments?

Dr. GREGORY. I do not remember precisely to whom I handed them. I do
not know.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a document marked Commission Exhibit No.
679, which Dr. Shaw used to identify the wounds on the Governor's back,
and I ask you to note whether these documents accurately depict the
place and the identity of the entry and exit wounds.

Dr. GREGORY. They do not in that, though the location of the wounds
on the forearm is correct, and the dimensions, it is my opinion that
entrance and exit terms have been reversed.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you delete the inaccurate statement and insert the
accurate statement with your initials by the side of the changes,
please?

Will you now describe the operative procedures----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question that relates, I think, to your
question. Assuming that the wrist wound and the thigh wound were caused
by the same bullet, would you agree that the approximate trajectory is
as indicated in this chart where Dr. Shaw has drawn a trajectory that
he assumed taking into account three bullets instead of two? I am only
asking you about the two wounds, namely the wrist and the thigh.

Dr. GREGORY. It would strike me, sir, that the trajectory to the wrist
and the subsequent wound of the thigh could be lined up easily in a
sitting position.

Now, those two could probably be lined up with a trajectory of the
wound in the chest as well, but this would require a more precise
positioning of the individual.

Mr. DULLES. But do you agree in general, taking the two wounds with
which you are particularly familiar, that that would have been the
trajectory as between the wrist and the thigh as drawn on that chart?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes, essentially so; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. For the record, how was that chart identified. Doctor?

Dr. GREGORY. This is identified as Commission Exhibit 689.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the operative procedures which
you performed on the Governor, please?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes. The wound on the dorsum of the Governor's wrist
was treated by debridement, which means to remove by sharp surgical
excision all contaminated tissues and those which are presumed to
have been rendered nonviable by force. This meant removing a certain
amount of skin, subcutaneous tissue, fat, and all of the particles of
clothing, threads of cloth, which we could identify; and, incidentally,
a bit of metal or two.

That wound was subsequently left open; in other words, we did not
suture it or sew it together. This is done in deference to potential
infection which we know often to be associated with retained organic
material such as cloth.

The wound on the volar surface or the palmar side of his wrist was
enlarged. The purpose in enlarging it was an uncertainty as to the
condition of the major nerves in the volar side of the wrist, and so
these nerves were identified and explored and found to be intact, as
were adjacent tendons. So that that wound was then sutured, closed.

After this, the fracture was manipulated into a hopefully respectable
position of the fragments, and a cast was applied, and some traction,
using rubber bands, was applied to the finger and the thumb in order
to better hold the fracture fragments in their reduced or repositioned
state.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, could all of the rounds which were inflicted
on the Governor, that is, those described by Dr. Shaw, and those which
you have described during your testimony, have been inflicted from
one missile if that missile were a 6.5 millimeter bullet fired from
a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per
second at a distance of approximately 160 to 250 feet, if you assumed a
trajectory with an angle of decline approximately 45 degrees?

Dr. GREGORY. I believe that the three wounds could have occurred from a
single missile under these specifications.

Mr. SPECTER. Assume, if you will, another set of hypothetical
circumstances: That the 6.5 millimeter bullet traveling at the same
muzzle velocity, to wit, 2,000 feet per second, at approximately 165
feet between the weapon and the victim, struck the President in the
back of the neck passing through the large strap muscles, going through
a fascia channel, missing the pleural cavity, striking no bones and
emerging from the lower anterior third of the neck, after striking the
trachea. Could such a projectile have then passed into the Governor's
back and inflicted all three or all of the wounds which have been
described here today?

Dr. GREGORY. I believe one would have to concede the possibility, but I
believe firmly that the probability is much diminished.

Mr. SPECTER. Why do you say that, sir?

Dr. GREGORY. I think that to pass through the soft tissues of the
President would certainly have decelerated the missile to some extent.
Having then struck the Governor and shattered a rib, it is further
decelerated, yet it has presumably retained sufficient energy to smash
a radius.

Moreover, it escaped the forearm to penetrate at least the skin and
fascia of the thigh, and I am not persuaded that this is very probable.
I would have to yield to possibility. I am sure that those who deal
with ballistics can do better for you than I can in this regard.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your assessment of the likelihood be for a
bullet under those hypothetical circumstances to have passed through
the neck of the President and to have passed through only the chest of
the Governor without having gone through either the wrist or into the
thigh?

Dr. GREGORY. I think that is a much more plausible possibility or
probability.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the likelihood of passing through the President
and through the Governor's chest, but missing his wrist and passing
into his thigh?

Dr. GREGORY. That, too, is plausible, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other circumstances of this event which have
been related to you, including the striking of the President's head by
a third bullet, which would account in any way, under any possibility,
in your view, for the fracture of the right wrist which was apparently
caused by a missile?

Dr. GREGORY. May I refer to this morning's discussions?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please do.

Dr. GREGORY. This morning I was shown two additional missiles or
portions of missiles which are rather grossly distorted.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me make those a part of the record here, and ask
if those are the missiles which have heretofore been identified as
Commission Exhibit 568 and Commission Exhibit 570.

Dr. GREGORY. These items represent distorted bits of a missile, a
jacket in one case, and part of a jacket and a lead core in the other.

These are missiles having the characteristics which I mentioned
earlier, which tend to carry organic debris into wounds and tend to
create irregular wounds of entry. One of these, it seems to me, could
conceivably have produced the injury which the Governor incurred in his
wrist.

Mr. DULLES. In his wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. And in his thigh?

Dr. GREGORY. I don't know about that, sir. It is possible. But the
rather remarkably round nature of the wound in the thigh leads me to
believe that it was produced by something like the butt end of an
intact missile.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you an exhibit heretofore identified as
Commission Exhibit 388, which depicts the artist's drawing of the
passage of a bullet through the President's head, and I ask you, first
of all, if you have had an opportunity to observe that prior to this
moment?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes. I saw this illustration this morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, if you assume that the trajectory through the
President's head was represented by the path of a 6.5-mm. bullet which
fragmented upon striking the skull, both the rear and again the top, is
it possible that a fragment coming at the rate of 2,000 feet per second
from the distance of approximately 160 to 230 feet, could have produced
a fragment which then proceeded to strike the Governor's wrist and
inflict the damage which you have heretofore described?

Dr. GREGORY. I think it is plausible that the bullet, having struck
the President's head, may have broken into more than one fragment. I
think you apprised me of the fact that it did, in fact, disperse into
a number of fragments, and they took tangential directions from the
original path apparently.

Mr. SPECTER. Assuming the fact that the autopsy surgeon presented
for the record a statement that the fragments moved forward into the
vicinity of the President's right eye, as the diagram shows, that there
were approximately 40 star-like fragments running on a line through the
head on the trajectory, and that there was substantial fragmentation of
the bullet as it passed through the head, what is your view about that?

Dr. GREGORY. I think it is possible that a fragment from that
particular missile may have escaped and struck the Governor's right arm.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe the slides and
films commonly referred to as the Zapruder film this morning?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I saw those this morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they shed any light on the conclusions--as to your
conclusions with respect to the wounds of the Governor and what you
observed in the treatment of the Governor?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes, to this extent. It seemed to me in frames marked 234,
235, and 236, Governor Connally was in a position such that a single
missile entered his back, could have passed through his chest, through
his right forearm, and struck his thigh. That is a possibility.

I looked at the film very carefully to see if I could relate the
position of Governor Connally's right arm to the movement when the
missile struck the President's head, presumably the third missile, and
I think that the record will show that those are obscured to a degree
that the Governor's right arm cannot be seen. In the Governor's own
words, he did not realize his right arm had been injured, and he has no
idea when it was struck. This is historical fact to us at the time of
the initial interview with him.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question? If a bullet had merely
struck the Governor's arm without previously having struck anything
else, is it conceivable that impediment of the bone that it hit there
would be consistent with merely a flesh wound on the thigh? Do you
follow me?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I follow you. I would doubt it on the basis of the
kind of wound that the Governor has. Now the kind of wound in the
Governor's right forearm is the kind that indicates there was not an
excessive amount of energy expended there, which means either that the
missile producing it had dissipated much of its energy, either that or
there was an impediment to it someplace else along the way.

It is simply that there was not enough energy loss there, and one would
expect a soft tissue injury beyond that point to be of considerably
greater magnitude.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, did I take your deposition back on March 23,
1964, at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; you did.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to review that deposition
prior to today?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I have looked it over.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Dr. Gregory, that you think
would be helpful to the Commission in any way?

Dr. GREGORY. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. DULLES. Are you in agreement with the deposition as given?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes. I don't think there are any--there is any need
to change any of the essence of the deposition. There are a few
typographical errors and word changes one might make, but the essence
is essentially as I gave it.

Mr. SPECTER. I have no further questions, sir.

Senator COOPER. I would just ask this question. In your long experience
of treating wounds, you said some 500 wounds caused by bullets, have
you acquired, through that, knowledge of ballistics and characteristics
of bullets?

Dr. GREGORY. Within a very limited sphere.

Senator COOPER. I know your testimony indicates that.

Dr. GREGORY. I have been concerned with the behavior of missiles in
contact with tissues, but I am not very knowledgeable about the design
of a missile nor how many grains of powder there are behind it. My
concern was with the dissipation of the energy which it carries and the
havoc that it wreaks when it goes off.

Senator COOPER. You derived that knowledge from your actual study of
wounds and their treatment?

Dr. GREGORY. Study of wounds together with what I have read from the
Army proving grounds, various centers, for exploring this kind of
thing. I don't own a gun myself.

Mr. McCLOY. You are from Texas and you do not own a gun?

Dr. GREGORY. Well, sir, I went from Indiana to Texas. My father gave me
a .410 shotgun, but he took it away from me shortly after he gave it to
me.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, thank you very much.

Dr. GREGORY. Thank you very much, sir, Mr. Chief Justice.

(A short recess was taken.)

The CHAIRMAN. Governor, the Commission will come to order, please.

TESTIMONY OF GOV. JOHN BOWDEN CONNALLY, JR.

Governor, this Commission has met today for the purpose of taking the
testimony of you and Mrs. Connally concerning the sad affair that you
were part of. If you will raise your right hand, please, and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Governor CONNALLY. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, Governor. Mr. Specter will conduct the
examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Governor CONNALLY. John Bowden Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your official position with the State of Texas,
sir?

Governor CONNALLY. I am now Governor of the State of Texas.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to be in the automobile which
carried President John F. Kennedy through Dallas, Tex., back on
November 22, 1963.

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly, please, the circumstances
leading up to the President's planning a trip to Texas in November of
last year?

Governor CONNALLY. You want to go back to--how far back do you want to
go, a few days immediately prior to the trip or a month before, or all
of the circumstances surrounding it?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, just a very brief picture leading up to the trip,
Governor, starting with whatever point you think would be most
appropriate to give some outline of the origin of the trip.

Governor CONNALLY. Well, it had been thought that he should come to
Texas for a period of many months, as a matter of fact. There was some
thought given to it during 1962. The trip kept being delayed.

Finally in the fall of 1963 it was decided that he definitely should
come, or should come in the fall of last year as opposed to waiting
until this year, when his appearance might have more political
overtones.

So I came up, I have forgotten the exact date, around the middle of
October and talked to him about it, discussed the details, asked him
what he would like to do.

He said he would like to do whatever he could do that was agreeable
with me; it was agreeable with me that he more or less trust me to
plan the trip for him, to tell him where he would like to go. About
that time some thought was being given to having four fundraising
dinners. His attitude on that was he wouldn't prefer that. He felt
that the appearances would not be too good, that he would much prefer
to have one if we were going to have any. I told him this was entirely
consistent with my own thoughts. We ought not to have more than one
fundraising dinner. If we did, it ought to be in Austin. If we could do
it, I would like for him to see and get into as many areas of the State
as possible while he was there.

He, on his own, had made a commitment to go to the dinner for
Congressman Albert Thomas, which was being given the night of the 21st
in Houston, so shortly, really before he got there, and when I say
shortly I would say 2 weeks before he came, the plans were altered a
little bit in that he landed originally in San Antonio in the afternoon
about 1:30 of the afternoon of the 21st. From there we went to Houston,
attended the Thomas dinner that night at about 8 o'clock.

After that we flew to Fort Worth, spent the night at the Texas Hotel,
had a breakfast there the next morning, and left about 10 o'clock,
10:30, for the flight over to Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. In what vehicle did you fly from Fort Worth to Dallas?

Governor CONNALLY. In Air Force 1.

Mr. SPECTER. And approximately what time did you arrive at Love Field,
Tex.

Governor CONNALLY. I would say about 11:50, 12:00, shortly before noon.
I believe the luncheon was planned for 12:30, and we were running on
schedule. I believe it was 11:50.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for us briefly the ceremonies at Love
Field on the arrival of the President?

Governor CONNALLY. Well, we, as usual, the President had a receiving
line there. I conducted Mrs. Kennedy through the receiving line and
introduced her to about 15 or 17 people who were there as an official
welcoming committee.

The President came right behind, was introduced to them, and then he
and Mrs. Kennedy both went over to the railing and spoke to a number
of people who were standing around, who visited for 5 or 10 minutes,
and then we got into the car as we had customarily done at each of the
stops, and Mrs. Connally and I got on the jump seats, and with the
President and Mrs. Kennedy on the back seat, and took off for the long
motorcade downtown.

Mr. SPECTER. I will now hand you a photograph which I have marked
"Commission Exhibit 697," Governor Connally, and ask you if that
accurately depicts the occupants of the car as you were starting that
motorcade trip through Dallas?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes; it does.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identities of the men who are riding in
the front seat of the car?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes. Roy Kellerman is on the right front. He is a
Secret Service agent, and Bill--I can't remember the other's name----

Mr. SPECTER. Greer.

I hand you another photograph here, Governor, marked as "Commission
Exhibit 698," and ask you if that is a picture of the President's
automobile during its ride through the downtown area of Dallas?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I assume it is. This is certainly the
President's automobile, and this is the precise position that each of
us occupied in the ride through Dallas. It was the same position, and
could be a photograph, of any number of places that we went. But I was
seated in the jump seat immediately in front of him, and Mrs. Connally
was seated immediately in front of Mrs. Kennedy in the jump seat, and
Roy Kellerman was immediately in front of me.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, may I move at this time the admission
into evidence of Exhibits 697 and 698?

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The items marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 697 and 698 were received in
evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. What was the relative height of the jump seats, Governor,
with respect to the seat of the President and Mrs. Kennedy immediately
to your rear?

Governor CONNALLY. They were somewhat lower. The back seat of that
particular Lincoln limousine, which is a specially designed and built
automobile, as you know, for the President of the United States, has an
adjustable back seat. It can be lowered or raised. I would say the back
seat was approximately 6 inches higher than the jump seats on which
Mrs. Connally and I sat.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know for certain whether or not the movable back
seat was elevated at the time?

Governor CONNALLY. No; I could not be sure of it, although I know
there were--there was a time or two when he did elevate it, and
I think beyond question on most of the ride in San Antonio, Fort
Worth, Houston, and Dallas, it was elevated. For a while--the reason
I know is--I sat on the back seat with him during part of the ride,
particularly in San Antonio, not in Dallas, but in San Antonio. The
wind was blowing, and we were traveling fairly fast, and Mrs. Kennedy
preferred to sit on the jump seat, and I was sitting on the back seat
part of the time, and the seat was elevated, and I think it was on
substantially all the trip.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the portion elevated, that where only the President
sat?

Governor CONNALLY. No; the entire back seat.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe in a general way the size and reaction of the
crowd on the motorcade route, if you would, please, Governor?

Governor CONNALLY. When we got into Dallas, there was quite a large
crowd at the airport to greet their President, I would say several
thousand people.

Part way downtown, in the thinly populated areas of Dallas, where
we traveled, the crowds were not thick and were somewhat restrained
in their reaction. By restrained, I mean they were not wildly
enthusiastic, but they were grown people. There was a mature crowd as
we went through some of the residential areas. They applauded and they
were obviously very friendly in their conduct.

But as we, of course, approached downtown, the downtown area of Dallas,
going down the main street, the crowds were tremendous. They were
stacked from the curb and even outside the curb, back against the back
walls. It was a huge crowd. I would estimate there were 250,000 people
that had lined the streets that day as we went down.

The further you went the more enthusiastic the response was, and the
reception. It was a tremendous reception, to the point where just as
we turned on Houston Street off of Main, and turned on Houston, down
by the courthouse, Mrs. Connally remarked to the President, "Well, Mr.
President, you can't say there aren't some people in Dallas who love
you." And the President replied, "That is very obvious," or words to
that effect.

So I would say the reception that he got in Dallas was equal to, if
not more, enthusiastic than those he had received in Fort Worth, San
Antonio, and Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other conversations which stand out in your
mind on the portion of the motorcade trip through Dallas itself?

Governor CONNALLY. No; actually we had more or less desultory
conversation as we rode along. The crowds were thick all the way down
on both sides, and all of us were, particularly the President and Mrs.
Kennedy were, acknowledging the crowds. They would turn frequently,
smiling, waving to the people, and the opportunity for conversation
was limited. So there was no particularly significant conversation or
conversations which took place. It was, as I say, pretty desultory
conversation.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the automobile stop at any point during this
procession?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes; it did. There were at least two occasions on
which the automobile stopped in Dallas and, perhaps, a third. There was
one little girl, I believe it was, who was carrying a sign saying, "Mr.
President, will you please stop and shake hands with me," or some that
was the import of the sign, and he just told the driver to stop, and
he did stop and shook hands, and, of course, he was immediately mobbed
by a bunch of youngsters, and the Secret Service men from the car
following us had to immediately come up and wedge themselves in between
the crowd and the car to keep them back away from the automobile, and
it was a very short stop.

At another point along the route, a Sister, a Catholic nun, was there,
obviously from a Catholic school, with a bunch of little children, and
he stopped and spoke to her and to the children; and I think there was
one other stop on the way downtown, but I don't recall the precise
occasion. But I know there were two, but I think there was still
another one.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other events prior to the time of the
shooting itself which stand out in your mind on the motorcade trip
through Dallas?

Governor CONNALLY. No; not that have any particular significance.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the comment which Mrs. Connally had made to
President Kennedy which you just described, where on the motor trip was
that comment made, if you recall?

Governor CONNALLY. This was just before we turned on Elm Street, after
we turned off of Main.

Mr. SPECTER. Onto Houston?

Governor CONNALLY. Onto Houston, right by the courthouse before we
turned left onto Elm Street, almost at the end of the motorcade, and
almost, I would say, perhaps a minute before the fatal shooting.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the crowd at that juncture of
the motorcade, sir?

Governor CONNALLY. At that particular juncture, when she made this
remark, the crowd was still very thick and very enthusiastic. It began
to thin immediately after we turned onto Elm Street. We could look
ahead and see that the crowd was beginning to thin along the banks,
just east, I guess of the overpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any difficulty in hearing such a conversational
comment?

Governor CONNALLY. No, no; we could talk without any, and hear very
clearly, without any difficulty, without any particular strain. We
didn't do it again because in trying to carry on a conversation it
would be apparent to those who were the spectators on the sidewalk,
and we didn't want to leave the impression we were not interested in
them, and so we just didn't carry on a conversation, but we could do so
without any trouble.

Mr. SPECTER. As the automobile turned left onto Elm from Houston, what
did occur there, Governor?

Governor CONNALLY. We had--we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe
200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the
freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were
going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and
we could--I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in
approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street.

We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a
shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot.
I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come
from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right
shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd,
but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was
interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified
it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my
mind was that this is an assassination attempt.

So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my
left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn.
I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little
bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in
the back.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate that you have as to the time
span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone
hitting you in the back which you just described?

Governor CONNALLY. A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of
thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately
thought that this--that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked
down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed
through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or
more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle. These
were just thoughts that went through my mind because of the rapidity
of these two, of the first shot plus the blow that I took, and I knew
I had been hit, and I immediately assumed, because of the amount of
blood, and, in fact, that it had obviously passed through my chest,
that I had probably been fatally hit.

So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began
to--I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap. She
was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so I reclined with my head
in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then,
of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly.
I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed
again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the
President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible,
very clear.

Immediately I could see on my clothes, my clothing, I could see on
the interior of the car which, as I recall, was a pale blue, brain
tissue, which I immediately recognized, and I recall very well, on my
trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big as almost my thumb,
thumbnail, and again I did not see the President at any time either
after the first, second, or third shots, but I assumed always that it
was he who was hit and no one else.

I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I
said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." Nellie, when she pulled
me over into her lap----

Mr. SPECTER. Nellie is Mrs. Connally?

Governor CONNALLY. Mrs. Connally. When she pulled me over into her lap,
she could tell I was still breathing and moving, and she said, "Don't
worry. Be quiet. You are going to be all right." She just kept telling
me I was going to be all right.

After the third shot, and I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, "Bill,
get out of line." And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving
a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said, "Get
us to a hospital quick." I assumed he was saying this to the patrolman,
the motorcycle police who were leading us.

At about that time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of the
line, and I lost consciousness and didn't regain consciousness until we
got to the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, I hand you a photograph, marked
Commission Exhibit 699, which is an overhead shot of Dealey Plaza
depicting the intersection of Houston and Elm, and ask you if you would
take a look at that photograph and mark for us, if you would, with
one of the red pencils at your right, the position of the President's
automobile as nearly as you can where it was at the time the shooting
first started.

Governor CONNALLY. I would say it would be about where this truck is
here. It looks like a truck. I would say about in that neighborhood.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you place your initials, Governor, by the mark that
you made there?

Governor, you have described hearing a first shot and a third shot. Did
you hear a second shot?

Governor CONNALLY. No; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the timespan between
the first shot which you heard and the shot which you heretofore
characterized as the third shot?

Governor CONNALLY. It was a very brief span of time; oh, I would have
to say a matter of seconds. I don't know. 10, 12 seconds. It was
extremely rapid, so much so that again I thought that whoever was
firing must be firing with an automatic rifle because of the rapidity
of the shots; a very short period of time.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your impression then as to the source of the shot?

Governor CONNALLY. From back over my right shoulder which, again, was
where immediately when I heard the first shot I identified the sound as
coming back over my right shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. At an elevation?

Governor CONNALLY. At an elevation. I would have guessed at an
elevation.

Mr. SPECTER. Excuse me.

Governor CONNALLY. Well, that is all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an impression as to the source of the third
shot?

Governor CONNALLY. The same. I would say the same.

Mr. SPECTER. How fast was the President's automobile proceeding at that
time?

Governor CONNALLY. I would guess between 20 and 22 miles an hour, and
it is a guess because I didn't look at the speedometer, but I would say
in that range.

Mr. SPECTER. Did President Kennedy make any statement during the time
of the shooting or immediately prior thereto?

Governor CONNALLY. He never uttered a sound at all that I heard.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy state anything at that time?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I have to--I would say it was after the third
shot when she said, "They have killed my husband."

Mr. SPECTER. Did she say anything more?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes; she said, I heard her say one time, "I have got
his brains in my hand."

Mr. SPECTER. Did that constitute everything that she said at that time?

Governor CONNALLY. That is all I heard her say.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything further at this time?

Governor CONNALLY. All she said to me was, after I was hit when she
pulled me over in her lap, she said, "Be quiet, you are going to be
all right. Be still, you are going to be all right." She just kept
repeating that.

Mr. SPECTER. Was anything further stated by Special Agent Roy Kellerman
other than that which you have already testified about?

Governor CONNALLY. No; those are the only two remarks that I heard him
make.

Mr. SPECTER. Was any statement made by Special Agent William Greer at
or about the time of the shooting?

Governor CONNALLY. No; I did not hear Bill say anything.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction by President Kennedy after
the shooting?

Governor CONNALLY. No; I did not see him.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction by Mrs. Kennedy after the
shooting?

Governor CONNALLY. I did not see her. This almost sounds incredible, I
am sure, since we were in the car with them. But again I will repeat
very briefly when what I believe to be the shot first occurred, I
turned to my right, which was away from both of them, of course, and
looked out and could see neither, and then as I was turning to look
into the back seat where I would have seen both of them, I was hit, so
I never completed the turn at all, and I never saw either one of them
after the firing started, and, of course, as I have testified, then
Mrs. Connally pulled me over into her lap and I was facing forward with
my head slightly turned up to where I could see the driver and Roy
Kellerman on his right, but I could not see into the back seat, so I
didn't see either one of them.

Mr. SPECTER. When you turned to your right, Governor Connally,
immediately after you heard the first shot, what did you see on that
occasion?

Governor CONNALLY. Nothing of any significance except just people out
on the grass slope. I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary,
just saw men, women, and children.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any estimate as to the distance which the
President's automobile traveled during the shooting?

Governor CONNALLY. No; I hadn't thought about it, but I would suppose
in 10 to 12 seconds, I suppose you travel a couple of hundred feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullet or fragments of bullet strike
the windshield?

Governor CONNALLY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullet or fragments of bullet strike
the metal chrome?

Governor CONNALLY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you experience any sensation of being struck any place
other than that which you have described on your chest?

Governor CONNALLY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. What other wounds, if any, did you sustain?

Governor CONNALLY. A fractured wrist and a wound in the thigh, just
above the knee.

Mr. SPECTER. What thigh?

Governor CONNALLY. Left thigh; just above the knee.

Mr. SPECTER. Where on the wrist were you injured, sir?

Governor CONNALLY. I don't know how you describe it.

Mr. SPECTER. About how many inches up from the wrist joint?

Governor CONNALLY. I would say an inch above the wrist bone, but on
the inner bone of the wrist where the bullet went in here and came out
almost in the center of the wrist on the underside.

Mr. SPECTER. About an inch from the base of the palm?

Governor CONNALLY. About an inch from the base of the palm, a little
less than an inch, three-quarters of an inch.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you conscious of receiving that wound on the wrist at
the time you sustained it?

Governor CONNALLY. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first know you were wounded in the right
wrist?

Governor CONNALLY. When I came to in the hospital on Saturday, the next
morning, and I looked up and my arm was tied up in a hospital bed, and
I said, "What is wrong with my arm?" And they told me then that I had a
shattered wrist, and that is when I also found out I had a wound in the
thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the nature of the wound in the thigh?

Governor CONNALLY. Well, just a raw, open wound, looked like a fairly
deep penetration.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 2 inches?

Governor CONNALLY. No; I would say about an inch, an inch and a quarter
long is all; fairly wide, I would say a quarter of an inch wide, maybe
more, a third of an inch wide, and about an inch and a quarter, an inch
and a half long.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you conscious that you had been wounded on the left
thigh at the time it occurred?

Governor CONNALLY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you first notice that in the hospital on the following
day also?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. In your view, which bullet caused the injury to your
chest, Governor Connally?

Governor CONNALLY. The second one.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your reason for that conclusion, sir?

Governor CONNALLY. Well, in my judgment, it just couldn't conceivably
have been the first one because I heard the sound of the shot. In
the first place, I don't know anything about the velocity of this
particular bullet, but any rifle has a velocity that exceeds the speed
of sound, and when I heard the sound of that first shot, that bullet
had already reached where I was, or it had reached that far, and after
I heard that shot. I had the time to turn to my right, and start to
turn to my left before I felt anything.

It is not conceivable to me that I could have been hit by the first
bullet, and then I felt the blow from something which was obviously
a bullet, which I assumed was a bullet, and I never heard the second
shot, didn't hear it. I didn't hear but two shots. I think I heard the
first shot and the third shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any idea as to why you did not hear the second
shot?

Governor CONNALLY. Well, first, again I assume the bullet was traveling
faster than the sound. I was hit by the bullet prior to the time the
sound reached me, and I was in either a state of shock or the impact
was such that the sound didn't even register on me, but I was never
conscious of hearing the second shot at all.

Obviously, at least the major wound that I took in the shoulder through
the chest couldn't have been anything but the second shot. Obviously,
it couldn't have been the third, because when the third shot was fired
I was in a reclining position, and heard it, saw it and the effects of
it, rather--I didn't see it, I saw the effects of it--so it obviously
could not have been the third, and couldn't have been the first, in my
judgment.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the nature of the exit wound on the front side of
your chest, Governor?

Governor CONNALLY. I would say, if the Committee would be interested, I
would just as soon you look at it. Is there any objection to any of you
looking at it?

The CHAIRMAN. No.

Governor CONNALLY. You can tell yourself.

I would say, to describe it for the record, however, that it, the
bullet, went in my back just below the right shoulder blade, at just
about the point that the right arm joins the shoulder, right in that
groove, and exited about 2 inches toward the center of the body from
the right nipple of my chest. I can identify these for you.

The bullet went in here--see if I properly describe that--about the
juncture of the right arm and the shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that the Governor has removed his
shirt and we can view the wound on the back which he is pointing toward.

Governor CONNALLY. The other two are tubes that were inserted in my
back by the doctors.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw is present and he can, perhaps, describe with
identifiable precision where the wounds are.

Dr. SHAW. There is the wound of the drain that has been specifically
described. It was not as large as the scar indicated because in
cleaning up the ragged edges of the wound, some of the skin was excised
in order to make a cleaner incision. This scar----

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the location, Doctor, of that wound on
the Governor's back?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. It is on the right shoulder, I will feel it, just
lateral to the shoulder blade, the edge of which is about 2 centimeters
from the wound, and just above and slightly medial to the crease formed
by the axilla or the armpit, the arm against the chest wall.

Mr. SPECTER. What other scars are shown there on the Governor's back?

Dr. SHAW. The other scars are surgically induced. This is the incision
that was made to drain the depth of the subscapular space.

Mr. SPECTER. And there you are indicating an incision at what location,
please?

Dr. SHAW. Just at the angle of the shoulder blade. Here is the angle of
the shoulder blade.

These incisions were never closed by suture. These incisions were left
open and they healed by what we call secondary intention, because
in this case there was what we call a Penrose drain, which is a
soft-rubber drain going up into the depths of the shoulder to allow
any material to drain. This was to prevent infection. The other small
opening was the one in which the tube was placed through the eighth
interspace.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicate its location, please, Doctor, on his back.

Dr. SHAW. This is lower on the right back in what we refer to as the
posterior axillary line, roughly this line.

Mr. SPECTER. There you are drawing a vertical, virtually vertical line?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. It is on the right back, but getting close to the
lateral portion of the chest. This also was a stab wound which was
never sutured. There was a rubber drain through this that led to what
we call a water seal bottle to allow for drainage of the inside of the
chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating again the second medically inflicted wound.

Dr. SHAW. Yes; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you now, Doctor, describe the location of the wound
of exit on the Governor's chest, please?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. The wound of exit was beneath and medial to the nipple.
Here was this =V= that I was indicating. It is almost opposite that.
At the time of the wound there was a ragged oval hole here at least
5 centimeters in diameter, but the skin edges were excised, and here
again this scar does not look quite as nice as it does during the more
lateral portion of the surgically induced incision, because this skin
was brought together under a little tension, and there is a little
separation there.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the entire scar there, Doctor, for the
record, please?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. The entire surgical incision runs from the anterior
portion of the chest just lateral to the, we call it, the condral arch,
the =V= formed by the condral arch, and then extends laterally below
the nipple, running up, curving up, into the posterior axillary portion
or the posterior lateral wall of the chest.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the total length of the scar, Doctor?

Dr. SHAW. Twenty centimeters, about.

Mr. DULLES. Where was the center of the bullet wound itself in that
scar about?

Dr. SHAW. Here.

Mr. DULLES. There?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. All of the rest of this incision was necessary to gain
access to the depths of the wound for the debridement, for removing all
of the destroyed tissue because of the passage of the bullet.

Mr. DULLES. Would you give us in your hand the area of declination from
the entry to the----

Dr. SHAW. This way.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you estimate that angle for us, Doctor?

Dr. SHAW. We are talking about the angle now, of course, with the
horizontal, and I would say--you don't have a caliper there, do you?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes.

Dr. SHAW. I was going to guess somewhere between 25° and 30°.

Mr. DULLES. Sorry to ask these questions.

Governor CONNALLY. That is fine. I think it is an excellent question.

Dr. SHAW. Well, this puts it right at 25°.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the angle then of elevation as you are measuring
it?

Dr. SHAW. Measuring from back to front, it is the elevation of the
posterior wound over the anterior wound.

The CHAIRMAN. The course being downward back to front?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Governor CONNALLY. Back to front.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Dr. SHAW. At the time of the initial examination, as I described, this
portion of the Governor's chest was mobile, it was moving in and out
because of the softening of the chest, and that was the reason I didn't
want the skin incision to be directly over that, because to get better
healing it is better to have a firm pad of tissue rather than having
the incision directly over the softened area.

Mr. DULLES. Doctor, would the angle be the same if the Governor were
seated now the way he was in the chair?

Dr. SHAW. That is a good question. Of course, we don't know exactly
whether he was back or tipped forward. But I don't think there is
going to be much difference.

Mr. DULLES. Were you seated in about that way, Governor?

Governor CONNALLY. Mr. Dulles, I would say I was in about this position
when I was hit, with my face approximately looking toward you, 20° off
of center.

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I got 27°. That didn't make much difference.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that reading taken then while the Governor is in a
seated position, Doctor?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, seated; yes.

Representative BOGGS. May I ask a question? How would his hand have
been under those circumstances, Doctor, for the bullet to hit his wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. I think it fits very well, really, remembering at the
other end the trajectory is right here, and there would be no problem
to pose his hands in that fashion, and if you will note, you can see
it best from over here really, because you did see that the point
of entry, and you can visualize his thigh, there is no problem to
visualize the trajectory.

Mr. DULLES. Would you be naturally holding your hand in that position?

Dr. GREGORY. It could be any place.

Governor CONNALLY. It could be anywhere on that line, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. Chief Justice, you see this is the leg.

Dr. SHAW. Of course, the wound is much smaller than this.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show the Governor has displayed the left
thigh showing the scar caused by the entry of the missile in the left
thigh.

Dr. Gregory, will you describe the locale of that?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes. This scar, excisional scar, is a better term, if I
may just interject that----

Mr. SPECTER. Please do.

Dr. GREGORY. The excisional scar to the Governor's thigh is located at
a point approximately 10 or 12 centimeters above the adductor tubercule
of the femur, placing it at the juncture of the middle and distal third
of his thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. In lay language, Doctor, about how far is that up from the
knee area?

Dr. GREGORY. Five inches, 6 inches.

Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, can you recreate the position that you
were sitting in in the automobile, as best you can recollect, at the
time you think you were struck?

Governor CONNALLY. I think, having turned to look over my right
shoulder, then revolving to look over my left shoulder, I threw my
right wrist over on my left leg.

Mr. SPECTER. And in the position you are seated now, with your right
wrist on your left leg, with your little finger being an inch or two
from your knee?

Governor CONNALLY. From the knee.

Mr. SPECTER. And, Dr. Gregory, would that be in approximate alignment
which has been characterized on Commission Exhibit----

Dr. GREGORY. I think it fits reasonably well; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. In a moment here I can get that exhibit.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question in the meantime?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You turned to the right, as I recall your testimony,
because you heard the sound coming from the right?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. How did you happen to turn then to the left, do you
remember why that was?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; I know exactly. I turned to the right both
to see, because it was an instinctive movement, because that is where
the sound came from, but even more important, I immediately thought it
was a rifleshot, I immediately thought of an assassination attempt,
and I turned to see if I could see the President, to see if he was all
right. Failing to see him over my right shoulder, I turned to look over
my left shoulder.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Governor CONNALLY. Into the back seat, and I never completed that turn.
I got no more than substantially looking forward, a little bit to the
left of forward, when I got hit.

Representative BOGGS. May I ask one of the doctors a question? What is
the incidence of recovery from a wound of this type?

Dr. GREGORY. I will defer the answer to Dr. Shaw. From the wrist,
excellent so far as recovery is concerned. Functionally, recovery is
going to be good, too, and Dr. Shaw can take on the other one.

Dr. SHAW. We never had any doubt about the Governor's recovery. We knew
what we had to do and we felt he could recover. I think I indicated
that to Mrs. Connally.

Governor CONNALLY. As soon as you got into the chest and found out what
it was.

Representative BOGGS. But, there was a very serious wound, was there
not, Doctor?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. It was both a shocking and painful wound, and the
effects of the wound, the immediate effects of the wound, were very
dangerous as far as Governor Connally was concerned, because he had
what we call a sucking wound of the chest. This would not allow him to
breathe. I think instinctively what happened, while he was riding in
the car on the way to the hospital, he probably had his arm across, and
he may have instinctively closed that sucking area to some extent. But
they had to immediately put an occlusive dressing on it as soon as he
got inside to keep him from sucking air in and out of the right chest.

Representative BOGGS. Had hospitalization been delayed for about
another half hour or so----

Dr. SHAW. That is speculation, but I don't think he could have
maintained breathing, sufficient breathing, for a half hour with that
type of wound. It is a little speculation. It would depend on how
well he could protect himself. We have had instances where by putting
their jackets around them like this, they could occlude this, and go
for a considerable period of time. Airmen during the war instinctively
protected themselves in this way.

Representative BOGGS. You have no doubt about his physical ability to
serve as Governor?

Dr. SHAW. None whatever. [Laughter.]

Senator COOPER. I am just trying to remember whether we asked you,
Doctor, if you probed the wound in the thigh to see how deep it was.

Dr. GREGORY. I did not, Senator. Dr. Tom Shires at our institution
attended that wound, and I have his description to go on, what he
found, what he had written, and his description is that it did not
penetrate the thigh very deeply, just to the muscle, but not beyond
that.

Representative BOGGS. Just one other question of the Doctor. Having
looked at the wound, there is no doubt in either of your minds that
that bullet came from the rear, is there?

Dr. GREGORY. There has never been any doubt in my mind about the origin
of the missile; no.

Representative BOGGS. And in yours?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, this is the exhibit which I was
referring to, being 689. Was that your approximate position
except--that is the alinement with your right hand being on your left
leg as you have just described?

Governor CONNALLY. No; it looks like my right hand is up on my chest.
But I don't know. I can't say with any degree of certainty where my
right hand was, frankly.

Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally----

Governor CONNALLY. It could have been up on my chest, it could have
been suspended in the air, it could have been down on my leg, it could
have been anywhere. I just don't remember.

I obviously, I suppose, like anyone else, wound up the next day
realizing I was hit in three places, and I was not conscious of having
been hit but by one bullet, so I tried to reconstruct how I could have
been hit in three places by the same bullet, and I merely, I know it
penetrated from the back through the chest first.

I assumed that I had turned as I described a moment ago, placing my
right hand on my left leg, that it hit my wrist, went out the center of
the wrist, the underside, and then into my leg, but it might not have
happened that way at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Were your knees higher on the jump seat than they would be
on a normal chair such as you are sitting on?

Governor CONNALLY. I would say it was not unlike this, with the
exception the knees might be slightly higher, perhaps a half an inch to
an inch higher.

Mr. DULLES. In this photograph you happen to have your right arm on
the side of the car. I don't know whether you recall that. That is
Commission Exhibit 698. That just happened to be one pose at one
particular time?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I don't think there is any question, Mr.
Dulles, at various times we were turned in every direction. We had arms