Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean he was down past in the sense that he had
progressed ahead of the front of your truck?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; he was down.

Mr. HUBERT. The Commerce Street entrance was between your truck and him?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that drew your attention to him then?

Mr. RICHEY. No; not really.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he dressed in the same way?

Mr. RICHEY. At this time he was still dressed the same way. That was
the last time I saw him.

Mr. HUBERT. Those two occasions were roughly separated by about 2
hours, you think?

Mr. RICHEY. Somewhere around there; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know it was Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. No; I had no idea. I just thought he was a newsman, because
there were several out there walking around, and they moved the people
across the street, and he was one of the few that was left.

This person was one of the few that was left out there, and that is one
reason I thought he was a newsman, because they weren’t bothering the
newsmen.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him talk to any of the police that were
stationed along there?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I didn’t see him talk to anyone.

Mr. HUBERT. You said that the second time was about 10 o’clock?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there any way in which you fix that time?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; not really. Well, it was about the time that we
thought they were to bring Oswald out. I think they told us it would
be about 10 o’clock. It was in that time period that we were sort of
looking for them to bring him out.

Mr. HUBERT. Judging from the time that Oswald was actually shot or
measuring from that time backward, could you tell us how long it was
from the time Oswald was shot, backward until you saw Ruby; or to put
it another way, how much time elapsed from the last time you saw Ruby
until Oswald was shot?

Mr. RICHEY. It was an hour or better.

Mr. HUBERT. Now can you tell us when was the very first time you
associated that man that you have just described as having seen at 8
o’clock and again at 10, or a little better, with Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. It was that night when I saw the rerun of the tape that was
made. And when I saw him, it looked like the same man that was dressed
differently, to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did the reruns show his face?

Mr. RICHEY. Not too good.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see any mug shots?

Mr. RICHEY. I saw still shots.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you see those?

Mr. RICHEY. The next day, I believe; whenever the papers came out. It
was the pictures in the Dallas Herald, I believe, the big full-page
picture.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ira N. Walker?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he on duty on the same truck with you that day?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think Mr.----

Mr. RICHEY. Johnny Smith.

Mr. HUBERT. Johnny Smith was too?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall being in the company of them and seeing mug
shots relatively shortly after the shooting of Oswald on TV?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I didn’t see those. They were in the truck where
they could see the pictures, but I was out on top of the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware that they had seen the Ruby mug shots and
had associated them with the man that they had seen?

Mr. RICHEY. I don’t know. I don’t believe.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you saw the rerun, you independently
reached the opinion that it was Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not suggested to you by the fact that Walker and
Smith had seen mug shots right after the shooting?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know that they had seen the shots?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now have you seen Jack Ruby since?

Mr. RICHEY. Not in person; no, sir. I have seen pictures, newsreels,
but I haven’t seen him actually.

Mr. HUBERT. You have seen pictures of him in the newspapers?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Newsreel films?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion now as to whether or not the man that
you have described that you saw twice on November 24, at about 8 and
then again about 10 on Commerce Street is or is not the man that you
now know from having seen pictures and so forth, as Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. I still believe that it is the same man.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not asked by the State to testify in the case?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; they came and talked to Johnny and Walker and
myself but they never did call me.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion as to your identification of the man
on the street and Jack Ruby as being the same man relative to your
identification of him on the reruns as opposed to your identification
of him from the still photos and other pictures that you have seen of
him thereafter?

What I am trying to get at is, which one of the subsequent views you
had of Jack Ruby is stronger in your mind with reference to identifying
the man that you saw in the street?

Mr. RICHEY. The still pictures, except for the difference in clothes.
The clothes in the still pictures look different from the ones that
this person had on that I saw, but I would say the still pictures
looked more like him.

Mr. HUBERT. Nevertheless, it is a fact, that when you saw the reruns on
the night of the 24th, at that time you had an impression that it was
the same man?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that a spontaneous thing?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes; when I saw it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say anything to anybody?

Mr. RICHEY. My wife, I believe, because we were watching the news.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t report it?

Mr. RICHEY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Richey, I have in hand here a document which purports
to be a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Haley and Madland
on December 4, 1963, which I have marked for identification as follows:
“Fort Worth, Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5316, deposition of Warren
E. Richey,” and I have signed my name on it.

I would like you to read the statement first, sir.

Mr. RICHEY. [Reads statement.]

Mr. HUBERT. Now, sir, you have read this document that I have
identified as Exhibit 5316, and I will ask you if it substantially
represents the truth as to the interview between you and the Federal
agents, or if you have any deletions, corrections, or any amendments to
make about it?

Mr. RICHEY. I would say it was all approximately right.

Mr. HUBERT. I invite your attention to the fact that this Exhibit 5316,
states that the time----

Mr. RICHEY. The time is different on there, but I tell you there has
been a lot happened since then that I couldn’t be too exact on the
time, really, because this was just, I don’t know, wasn’t too long
after this all happened.

Mr. HUBERT. For example, this statement mentions that you saw him about
9 o’clock and apparently doesn’t cover what you testified to. That is
to say, that you really saw him twice?

Mr. RICHEY. Well, I actually didn’t see him twice. This was a period of
time really from approximately 8 or somewhere in there up until about
10 o’clock. He wasn’t there early. That wasn’t what I meant.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s get that straight. You saw him only once; is that
correct? Or twice?

Mr. RICHEY. Well, I saw him--I don’t know how to put it. It was a
period of time I saw him, between this time, probably several times
walked down the sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. He walked actually between the truck and the sidewalk side
of the building?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then at one time you have a mental impression of having
seen him beyond the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; from the corner. I don’t even remember what
street. It runs in front of the court building back of the truck.
But he was within that area from that street up beyond the ramp. But
this last time I saw him was at the ramp. But he was in between there
several times that morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Between 8?

Mr. RICHEY. And 10 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. But you think that the very last time that you saw him----

Mr. RICHEY. Was around 10 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. What fixes 10 in your mind?

Mr. RICHEY. Like I say, it was about the time they were expecting them
to bring Oswald down in the building. That was when the chief of police
told us they would be bringing him out, and we were looking for him,
because I was up there on a camera, with a camera on the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you gotten any kind of alert standby?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir. There was no alert of any kind. It was just the
time that they had given us the night before, actually.

Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, you say that your recollection is that the last
time you saw him, which was when you saw him beyond the Commerce Street
ramp, was approximately an hour or a little better from the actual
shooting?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the last time you remember seeing him?

Mr. RICHEY. That was the end of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem at that time to be walking away from your truck?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; he was standing.

Mr. HUBERT. He was just standing?

Mr. RICHEY. He was standing.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any police near him?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; not near him. They had one policeman out on the
ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. But when you saw him, it was after all the crowd had been
moved over?

Mr. RICHEY. They were across the street.

Mr. HUBERT. From the side of the street where your truck was, to the
opposite side of Commerce Street?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there many other people like this man walking around
in that area?

Mr. RICHEY. There was just occasionally newsmen, because they were
congregating in the basement and they would come by.

Mr. HUBERT. But this man whom you have identified as Jack Ruby; did he
have any kind of paper or press badge which you observed in the nature
of a press badge?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; not that I saw, because there was a lot of newsmen
that didn’t have passes. Some of our crew didn’t even have passes, WBAP.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when the armored truck pulled in there?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that before or after the last time you saw the man you
have identified as Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. I believe that was the--I believe the armored truck pulled
in after I saw him the last time, because there was one pulled in and
backed in, and the other one parked on the street.

Mr. HUBERT. You think that the last time you saw Ruby was before?

Mr. RICHEY. Before any of that happened?

Mr. HUBERT. Before any of that happened.

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; Mr. Richey, have you been interviewed by any
member of the President’s Commission prior to this occasion?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to say in any way?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I don’t know of anything.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that you really didn’t hear Ruby say
anything?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that this statement which has been identified as
5316--let me ask you: You were interviewed by the FBI?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; that was 2 or 3 days, I believe, after.

Mr. HUBERT. You were interviewed at the same time as Mr. Walker and Mr.
Smith?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes; and there were some others.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that an individual interview?

Mr. RICHEY. Not in our case. We were all together in the studio of WBAP.

Mr. HUBERT. You weren’t taken aside separately and individually?

Mr. RICHEY. Not when the FBI talked to us.

Mr. HUBERT. Each of you gave your story and the FBI agents made notes?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever ask you to check the notes or any draft?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I have never heard or seen them since.

Mr. HUBERT. You were on duty with the truck during the day of Saturday,
November 23?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it be possible that the man you saw and identified as
Jack Ruby would have been seen by you on the 23d rather than the 24th?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I don’t recall seeing anyone that even looked like
him on the 23d. That one morning is the only morning that I recall
seeing anyone that even looked like him.

Mr. HUBERT. On the 24th, I think you testified the crowd had been moved
over on the other side of the street?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had that been done on the 23d?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; no one bothered. There weren’t too many around
on the 23d. Mostly newsmen was all that was around on the 23d. There
wasn’t any crowd, really, but they started congregating on Sunday
morning on both sides of the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. It was after they had begun to congregate that you saw this
man you have identified as Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; and then they moved the other people across, and
I still saw him after they moved the other people across the street.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF MALCOLM R. SLAUGHTER

The testimony of Malcolm R. Slaughter was taken at 7:30 p.m., on April
16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Slaughter, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the
advisory staff of the General Counsel of President Johnson’s Commission
on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of
Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of
Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission
in accordance with the Executive order and the joint resolution of
Congress, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Slaughter, the nature
of the inquiry tonight is to determine what facts you know about the
death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the
general inquiry, and particularly what you may know about Jack Ruby and
his whereabouts and movements on Sunday, November 24.

Mr. Slaughter, normally the witnesses are required to come before the
Commission by a written letter or notice in writing sent to them by a
member of the Commission or the general counsel, Mr. J. Lee Rankin. I
have such a letter in my possession, but we have been unable to get it
to you on account of your work.

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I have the letter.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get it over 3 days ago?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I got it; I got it last Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, that’s fine. Then, it is over 3 days ago. Now,
would you stand and take the oath, please? Do you solemnly swear the
testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Malcolm R. Slaughter.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Forty-four.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. 5638 Ridgeway Drive, Houston, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, Mr. Slaughter?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Line driver.

Mr. HUBERT. For what company?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. For Red Ball Motor Freight.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Eight years.

Mr. HUBERT. You are a family man?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So you have a wife and children?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that tonight you are en route from one point
to another?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that during last fall you and at least one other
of your friends or fellow drivers of trucks rented an apartment as a
stopoff or sleeping place here in Dallas; is that correct?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. We were domiciled in Dallas at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. You were?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us where this apartment was located?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. In the Oak Cliff section of Dallas--223 South Ewing.

Mr. HUBERT. What apartment did you have?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Apartment 204.

Mr. HUBERT. Who else shared that apartment with you?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Jack Scritchfield [spelling] S-c-r-i-t-c-h-f-i-e-l-d,
and Sidney Evans.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t have that apartment any more, I take it?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir; I vacated March 1.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first occupy the apartment?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. October 30, 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. And how often were you there between that date and November
24, 1963?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. You say--how often?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir--I mean--did you live there or were you on the
road a great deal of the time?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. We maintained our homes in Houston but due to the fact
we drove out of Dallas, Tex., off of the pool board in Dallas, we had
to maintain a residence in Dallas. That’s why the three of us split
costs and rented this apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. What I wanted to get at--we are talking about a period of
approximately 24 or 25 days, from October 31, I think you said, until
November 24, and I was just wondering how many of those nights or days
you were on the road and didn’t occupy the apartment?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Well, I have logs to substantiate it--I can’t give you
the exact figure.

Mr. HUBERT. No, sir--just approximately.

Mr. SLAUGHTER. In and out--every time I was in Dallas I stayed there.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be how often, roughly?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. It could be every night--every third night, and most
generally always on weekends.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you did stay in that apartment it would be during
the daytime, sometimes?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes, sir--mostly in the daytime.

Mr. HUBERT. And mostly on Sundays and Saturdays?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. On weekends.

Mr. HUBERT. On weekends?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever get to meet a man by the name of Jack Ruby who
occupied an apartment in that same building?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Not personally.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him prior to November 24, 1963?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I would say possibly two or three times in passing, only.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever converse with him?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir; only to say “hello” or some such greeting as
that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know his name at that time?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir--not at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to November 24 you did not know his name?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know George Senator, who lived with him?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him as well as you knew Jack Ruby, say, but of
course--you didn’t know him at all?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I don’t know George Senator to this moment.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man, even if you did not know his name, who
shared an apartment with Jack Ruby?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, coming precisely to November 24, 1963, do you remember
whether you were at the apartment that you have described on that date?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you saw Jack Ruby on that date? At
or about or near the apartment?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. On November 24?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. At approximately what time did you see him, sir?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Approximately 10:05 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are fixing that time very accurately, and I want
to ask you how you do so?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Mr. Evans had just returned from a Catholic church
in Oak Cliff, stating that he thought there was a 10 o’clock mass;
however, there was none, so he returned to our apartment approximately
at 10 o’clock a.m. I had just gotten up when he came in the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s Evans you are talking about?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. When Evans came in the apartment, I spoke to him and
asked him what happened. He replied there was no mass at 10 a.m.
He had decided to go to 11 o’clock mass. I went out in the kitchen
and put on the coffee pot. Then I asked Evans how was the weather?
He said, “Rather windy.” So, as was my custom, I walked out on the
balcony just for my own information to see what the weather was like.
It is approximately 50 feet to the railing where I would look down the
freeway, and as I walked out the door toward this railing, I met Jack
Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that in the hallway of the place?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. On a balcony, sir. He was coming the opposite way. I
said, “Good morning,” and he acknowledged the greeting, not with the
words “Good morning,” or “Howdy,” or any such statement, but he did
acknowledge the greeting.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, he made no sound but he made a nod, I
suppose; is that what you mean?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. “Hmmm”; something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. You passed right by him, then?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Within a matter of a foot or two?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed at that time?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. In my terms, I would say very casual, such as a pair
of khakis and a light jacket. I, myself, wear khakis and T-shirt as
lounging clothes, we’ll use that term. I would say that Jack Ruby was
dressed similarly.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a coat on, and I don’t mean an overcoat, but a
coat to a suit?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a shirt or tie on?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I don’t think he did. As I said, he did have a light
jacket on and it appeared to be as my dress or a T-shirt, or some
nature as that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he appear to be shaved?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I didn’t observe that closely.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe whether his hair was disheveled?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. His hair was combed and I’ll say he was more or less
looking down as if in deep thought. That’s my impression.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat on?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. From what direction was he coming?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Direction-wise he was coming from the end of the stairs
which would let him walk in front of our apartment on down to his. As
for direction, that would be----

Mr. HUBERT. He was going toward his apartment?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. If he continued in that direction, he, of course, could get
to his apartment, but could he get to the lower floor at all?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Not without back tracking or passing his apartment.
There is a stairway on either end of the balcony.

Mr. HUBERT. And you met him about the middle of it or something like
that?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Toward our end.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe whether he went into his apartment or not?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he carrying anything?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he parked his car?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Only hearsay. There was parking space provided for all
tenants at the rear of the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, considering where that parking space was, if he were
going from his car to his apartment, would he be taking the route you
saw him take, or would the other route have been better?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Well, as I say, I don’t know his car--I do not know
where he was parked. Presuming he would park where the rest of us did
and he was coming from his car?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Presumably, it would have been the other end of the
stairway that he would have used.

Mr. HUBERT. Rather than what he probably used--that’s the stairway that
was on the end toward which you were approaching, is that right?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s correct. My presumption there would be that he
had either been to the mailbox or to the manager’s apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. Could he have been to the basement where it was possible to
wash clothes?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s on the other end of the building.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that it would be improbable that he would be coming at
that time from the basement area?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. It would be improbable--yes.

Air. Hubert. When Mr. Evans came in, were you awake?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I know not whether I was awake or he awakened me upon
entering.

Mr. HUBERT. But you would judge that it would be about 10 minutes from
the time that you first spoke to Evans until you saw Jack Ruby, or
longer? Or shorter?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I would say approximately that length of time.

Mr. HUBERT. About 10 minutes?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. About 10 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, in order to get it exactly straight, you
would estimate that Evans came in about 5 minutes to 10, and that you
occupied yourself in speaking to him a bit, and putting on the coffee,
talking about the weather, and subsequently going out on the balcony
and at the point at which you saw Ruby 10 minutes had elapsed from the
time you first had spoken to Evans?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s approximately correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby any more that day?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there much space between your apartment and his
apartment?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Two apartments.

Mr. HUBERT. You couldn’t hear anything that might be going on in his
apartment?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anything from the direction of his apartment
which might have indicated someone was leaving?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear or see his automobile leave?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir; I haven’t seen him yet.

Mr. HUBERT. This third gentleman who shared the apartments with you, I
think you called him Mr. Scritchfield?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Jack Scritchfield.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there then?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he see Ruby to your knowledge?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Not on that day; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he sleeping?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. He had just gone to bed within 30 minutes of Evans’
arrival.

Mr. HUBERT. And you would judge that he was asleep or at least in bed
at the time Evans got back?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had he been up prior to that time and moving around?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. You are speaking of Jack?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SLAUGHTER. He had just come in off of a run.

Mr. HUBERT. He walked right into the house and undressed and went to
bed?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. In a very short matter of time--I don’t know exactly
what time Jack got to the apartment, but he had been on an overnight
run and he had just arrived and was due to sleep all day Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time that you saw Ruby, had Sidney Evans
mentioned anything to you about having seen him also?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Not until after the television program.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen Ruby in or about the apartments with any
feminine company?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him there walking in or about with any
man?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him with a dog?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Slaughter, have you ever been interviewed by any member
of the Commission prior to this occasion?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Not the Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, have you anything else that you can tell us
regarding the movements of Jack Ruby on this day or on any other day?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. We appreciate your cooperation.

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s all right--I hope this was some help.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you again.

TESTIMONY OF VERNON S. SMART

The testimony of Vernon S. Smart was taken at 12:15 p.m., on March 25,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Lieutenant Smart, my name is Burt Griffin, and I am one
of the attorneys on the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the
President’s Commission Investigating the Assassination of President
Kennedy. This Commission has been set up by virtue of an Executive
order issued by President Johnson and joint resolution of Congress.
The Executive order is No. 11130 and the congressional resolution
is No. 137. We have promulgated a set of rules of procedure, the
Commission has, and under these rules of procedure, I have been given
authority to take your sworn deposition. Part of our rules of standard
procedure is to explain to you in advance what the general nature of
the Commission’s inquiry is. I will state in a general fashion that we
are trying to ascertain and evaluate and report back to the President
on the facts, and all of the facts, that relate to the assassination of
President Kennedy and the murder of Lee Oswald. Our particular concern
in calling you has more to do with the assassination or murder of Lee
Oswald than it has to do with the assassination of the President;
however, we want to have all of the information that you have which
you think is pertinent to the matter that the Commission is involved
in. Now, we have addressed a letter, that is, the General Counsel
has addressed a letter, to Chief Curry requesting that you be made
available to appear here. Under the rules of the Commission, you are
entitled to a personal 3-day notice before you testify. You can waive
this notice. I will ask you right now if you want the 3-day notice or
whether you are willing to waive the notice?

Mr. SMART. No; I will waive it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Also, you are entitled to have an attorney here, and some
of the witnesses do have attorneys and others of them don’t, and I take
it that, by the fact that you are appearing here alone, that you do
not desire an attorney; however, if you do desire to have an attorney
present representing you, I wish you would say so at this time, and
don’t feel that it would be any embarrassment to any of us or we would
be concerned about it.

Mr. SMART. No; I don’t feel like I need one right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me tell you.

Mr. SMART. Not for this; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have no authority to prosecute anybody.

Mr. SMART. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a factfinding matter, and I think more than very
many people fully appreciate that this investigation is intimately
connected with the security of the country.

Mr. SMART. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, of course, most particularly the security of the
President, and it is terribly important from a standpoint of protection
and making sure that things don’t happen in the future----

Mr. SMART. I understand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That we get everything. We have collected a lot of
information in this area, and I can only tell you that what you think
might be unimportant or would be more interested in withholding for
fear of embarrassing somebody could be terribly important to us when
all of the pieces are put together.

Mr. SMART. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me ask you if you have any questions about what
we are doing here?

Mr. SMART. No; I think I understand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me swear you in, then. If you will, will you raise
your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about
to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. SMART. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Lieutenant Smart, when were you born?

Mr. SMART. July 10, 1912.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where do you live now?

Mr. SMART. Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your address?

Mr. SMART. 2120 Ballycastle Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And you are employed with the Dallas Police
Department?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are a lieutenant?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the police department?

Mr. SMART. Twenty-nine years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been interviewed by any member of this staff? I
am not talking about FBI agents, but any members of the President’s
Commission staff----

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than me?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And have I interviewed you before taking your deposition
here?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I am going to mark here for identification
purposes a copy of an interview that was held with you by Special
Agents Bookhout and Myers, [spelling] M-y-e-r-s, and that is Bookhout
[spelling], B-o-o-k-h-o-u-t, of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on
November 25, 1963. I am going to mark that, “Dallas, Texas, Lieutenant
Smart, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5021.” I am going to hand it to you and ask you
if you have had a chance to read that over?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are there any additions or corrections that you would
care to make in that?

Mr. SMART. No. I told it to them just as I saw and heard it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you file a report of your own activities with the
police department?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you would be good enough to provide us with a
copy of that. You think, after this interview is over, you could get a
copy of it and provide it to us?

Mr. SMART. Could I?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SMART. You say could I?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SMART. I think so. I don’t have it in my possession.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have asked everybody else, and there is no problem on
that.

Mr. SMART. Yes, I am sure they will.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Were you on duty on November 22?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you stationed?

Mr. SMART. Wait a minute. November 22?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The day that the President was shot.

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on duty on November 23?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you come to work that day?

Mr. SMART. 7 a.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are in charge of the auto theft division, is that
right?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any officer who is above you in the auto theft
division?

Mr. SMART. At that time?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SMART. No. You say are there or was there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there at that time?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was the relationship of Captain Nichols?

Mr. SMART. He was off duty that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. But he is also an officer in it?

Mr. SMART. He is in charge of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He is----

Mr. SMART. He is the captain.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He is in charge of the whole division?

Mr. SMART. The whole bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. SMART. In his absence, I am in charge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, what time did you leave on the 23d, leave work?

Mr. SMART. It was late in the afternoon. I don’t remember the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the 23d, did you give any assistance in connection with
the investigation of the murder of the President, did you lend any
assistance to that----

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To that investigation?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you lend any assistance in connection with preserving
security in the building or press relations or anything like that?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us--I am talking about the 23d.

Mr. SMART. Twenty-third?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what you did on the 23d in that regard?

Mr. SMART. I was told by Chief Stevenson to have all of the men in my
bureau to stand by to assist in the transfer of Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when were you told this by Chief Stevenson?

Mr. SMART. It must have been--I can’t say for sure--in the neighborhood
of 8 or 9 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Saturday morning?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the day before the transfer.

Mr. SMART. Said he didn’t know what time they were going to move him
but to have all of the men stand by available.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you then pass the word throughout your division?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you prepare any written memorandum of this?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would there be anything in writing to indicate what sort
of instructions were given or that there were instructions given?

Mr. SMART. All verbal.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember talking with any particular men about this
in your department?

Mr. SMART. I talked to each one of them, told them to stand by and I
would tell them when to report to the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, of course, nothing happened, he wasn’t moved
that day, Oswald was not moved on Saturday?

Mr. SMART. Wait a minute. I am all crossed up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought you were.

Mr. SMART. I am talking about the day he was moved.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. SMART. I am all crossed up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. That is why I asked you.

Mr. SMART. Sunday, wasn’t it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is why I asked you.

Mr. SMART. Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. SMART. I am speaking of Sunday, the day they moved him, now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. SMART. Saturday, I didn’t do anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before you came to work on Sunday, had you heard
anything, even by way of rumor, with respect to the fact that Oswald
might be moved that day?

Mr. SMART. That was when?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Came to work--before you arrived at work on Sunday morning.

Mr. SMART. No, sir; I didn’t hear anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, where was Stevenson when he talked to you
about having your men ready?

Mr. SMART. In his office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you personally there or did you receive this by
telephone?

Mr. SMART. I received it from him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have any discussion with him at that time----

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About the moving?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; he said have the men stand by and he would notify
me when to have them report to the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long was this before Oswald was actually moved,
would you estimate?

Mr. SMART. I couldn’t say for sure, but I think I must have talked to
him between--it must have been around 9 o’clock in the morning or maybe
earlier. I am not sure. I didn’t make a note of the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were there other department heads or bureau heads in
there at the time that you got this information?

Mr. SMART. In and out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information as to whether Stevenson made a
general request to all bureaus to have their men stand by or was this
just specifically directed toward you?

Mr. SMART. I think it was general.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is, do you have any confirmation of that, have you
talked to other bureau heads, for example, to find out?

Mr. SMART. Captain Jones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What bureau is he connected with?

Mr. SMART. Forgery.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about the other bureau heads there? Did you talk to
them?

Mr. SMART. Captain Martin, we discussed it among ourselves about having
our men stand by.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when did you discuss it with those gentlemen?

Mr. SMART. Shortly after I talked with Stevenson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. SMART. It was general knowledge around that all of the men were
supposed to stand by. You know how those things get out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. I see. Now, when was the next time that you got any
information about the movement of Lee Oswald?

Mr. SMART. In the neighborhood of 11 o’clock, it could have been before
or after a little bit, Chief Stevenson told me to have my men report to
the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you took your men down to the
basement?

Mr. SMART. I instructed the men to go down to the basement and I went
with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you personally place these men----

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In any positions?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if----

Mr. SMART. I turned them over to Captain Jones, he was handling that,
and I told him, if I could help him, to let me know, that I would be
down there, and he placed them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do at that point?

Mr. SMART. At that time, they were attempting to back this armored
truck in, and I walked up the ramp, and they were having difficulty
getting it in on account of the height of it and so forth, and Chief
Batchelor was present, if I am not mistaken, he went down with us or in
the group, and he and I decided with the driver that we couldn’t get
it all of the way down, and parked it about a third of the way down, I
guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a uniformed officer?

Mr. SMART. Beg your pardon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you wear a uniform?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to get here a diagram that we have been using. I
am going to ask you to mark on this diagram. This is a diagram of the
basement. Here is the jail office.

Mr. SMART. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The ramp up to Commerce Street, the ramp down from Main
Street, and the garage area. Now, can you mark on this map or chart----

Mr. SMART. This ramp goes on out like this, doesn’t it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SMART. This is really a solid wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me explain what this is here. This is the basement
wall, this far black line is the basement wall, which underneath the
ground goes all of the way out to the sidewalk, beyond the sidewalk.

Mr. SMART. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. However, at the street level----

Mr. SMART. This would all be sidewalk?

Mr. GRIFFIN. This would all be sidewalk.

Mr. SMART. I see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, will you show us on this diagram where you were
standing just before Lee Oswald was shot?

Mr. SMART. Well, I would say about here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark it with an “X” if you would?

Mr. SMART. All right. Roughly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you do something? Would you put your initials beside
it or something to indicate that that is you? Okay. Now, did you see
Sam Pierce’s car go out of the driveway?

Mr. SMART. No; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which direction or what were you doing at the time that
Pierce’s car would have gone out about a minute ago?

Mr. SMART. I don’t know when his car went out. I heard them talking
about it. It was supposed to have gone out this way, wasn’t it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; now, when you were standing by the armored car, were
you looking up to Commerce Street?

Mr. SMART. At the time of the shooting?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; not at the time of the shooting.

Mr. SMART. Well, I was looking every way that I could, this side of the
truck, this side of the truck, trying to see down here from time to
time, but I couldn’t see much for the television lights.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long----

Mr. SMART. I was mainly interested in the security angle from across
the street, so forth. That was my thought.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you remained--how long had you been here by
the side of this armored truck prior to the time that you heard any
shots in the basement?

Mr. SMART. Oh, long enough that, when the truck backed down, Batchelor
and I found some bottles in it, anything that might be used as a weapon
that was loose in the truck. I don’t know how long that would have
been, practically all of the time that I was in the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you standing beside the truck?

Mr. SMART. No; I was up here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to mark up there where the truck was? Why
don’t you mark a square where the truck was?

Mr. SMART. This is strictly guesswork because I didn’t measure in feet
or anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is all right. Just a rough idea. And you were
standing at the place where you were standing beside the truck?

Mr. SMART. I had been in the truck, around the truck, I had taken
some bottles over here and set them on a ledge out of the way and
I had walked back--of course, this doesn’t represent too many
feet--approximately halfway from the truck down to the end of the ramp,
and at the time that I heard the shot, I was looking out this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. What did you do at the time that you heard the shot?

Mr. SMART. What did I do at the time?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SMART. I immediately rushed down to where the scuffle was going on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you at any time go into the jail office?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand that you talked to “Blackie” Harrison right
after the scuffle.

Mr. SMART. Yes, uh-huh, as soon as I got to the scene.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Ruby still there?

Mr. SMART. Yes; I asked “Blackie” who he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with “Blackie” after that that day?

Mr. SMART. Later in the day?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SMART. I don’t recall it if I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Between the time that you talked with Harrison and the
time that you were informed that you should go to Ruby’s car and search
the car, what did you do?

Mr. SMART. I was told by Chief Stevenson to check all of--to put guards
on the elevators and on the doors on the first floor.

(Discussion off of the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you do that?

Mr. SMART. I did that, and I went back to my office, resumed my usual
routine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the third floor?

Mr. SMART. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain up there on the third floor before
you were asked to do something in connection with Ruby’s car?

Mr. SMART. I couldn’t say for sure. It was some time, though, elapsed,
quite some time elapsed, and Chief Stevenson would call me on the phone
and gave me the license number of his car and told me where it was
parked, asked me--told me there was a sum of money in it, to go over
and remove it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You got out there, and I take it from your statement that
you found that somebody else had already been to the car?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were the first one to the car?

Mr. SMART. I don’t think I said that anyone else had been to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will correct the record, because his statement doesn’t
reflect it, what I said. All right. When you got to the car, was the
car locked or unlocked?

Mr. SMART. The doors were unlocked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have a key to the car at that time?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you been told at that time whether or not there was a
key to the car----

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or whether you needed one?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; I hadn’t been told. I just assumed that the keys
were in the car, but nobody told me that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got there----

Mr. SMART. Being on a parking lot, you know, naturally, I didn’t think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a dog in that car?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the dog when you got to the car?

Mr. SMART. The dog had crawled under a newspaper in the front seat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do with the dog when you got in?

Mr. SMART. We had the squad come by and get it and take it to the
animal shelter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody else that accompanied you out to that
automobile?

Mr. SMART. Lieutenant Swain.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is all?

Mr. SMART. Well, we called the uniformed squad there a little bit later
and had the car put in the pound. It seems to me like there was one
more detective. I don’t remember. I believe it was Detective Watson. I
am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the first thing you searched?

Mr. SMART. The glove compartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I understand that you found his wallet in the glove
compartment?

Mr. SMART. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And a key to fit the trunk?

Mr. SMART. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ever find out whether Ruby had a wallet on
his person?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; I never did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever make any inquiry?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Ruby about any of the equipment
which you found in the automobile?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About the property which you found in the automobile?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Lieutenant Swain?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; not in my presence.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or that you know of?

Mr. SMART. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the normal procedure, who would be the person who would
question him about that property?

Mr. SMART. Well, I would think it would be Captain Fritz.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you examine this billfold?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what you recall being in that billfold?

Mr. SMART. His driver’s license and several cards of identification
like you would normally carry in a billfold, but I don’t remember each
one, what they were or anything. Different cards with his name on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Social security card?

Mr. SMART. I believe his social security card was there. I am not sure.
There was just stuff--cards and papers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Do you think you would be able to identify that
wallet and contents?

Mr. SMART. I think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything else in there besides
identification cards in the wallet?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any money in the wallet?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what else did you find in the glove compartment?

Mr. SMART. A key.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A single key?

Mr. SMART. A single key.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this--where was this?

Mr. SMART. Just laying in the floor of the glove compartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it under some papers or anything like that?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; wasn’t much stuff in the glove compartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything else in the glove compartment besides
the key and the wallet?

Mr. SMART. I remember looking, but I remember there was nothing of
importance that would have any bearing on anything. There was something
there, not much, though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the key on top and exposed?

Mr. SMART. No. The billfold was on top and the key was laying over on
the side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. SMART. Just a lone key, a General Motors key.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did it appear there had been any effort to conceal
it?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you searched the glove compartment, what did
you do? What did you search after the glove compartment?

Mr. SMART. Well, I sat down in the front seat to try this key, and
I put my hand down on these papers, and that is when I felt the
dog. The dog raised up. It didn’t fit the ignition keys, I mean the
ignition switch, so I knew it was a General Motors key, and I owned an
Oldsmobile, and it looked like it might be a trunk key, and I tried it,
and it worked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, up to this point, you hadn’t searched the interior of
the car, nothing but the glove compartment?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; nothing but just look over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you took this key, you were able to open the
trunk, weren’t you?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you see when you opened that trunk?

Mr. SMART. Well, some paper bags and some bank sacks, maybe one bank
sack, and just full of junk, almost full of junk, except there was a
set of keys laying right down in the open.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was this a set of keys?

Mr. SMART. Well, it was a bunch of keys.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they on a ring?

Mr. SMART. A ring or something to hold them together; I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many keys would you say were on this?

Mr. SMART. Oh, roughly four or five.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there any keys that looked like they might be
keys to a house or door?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many keys on there appeared that they would be
automobile keys?

Mr. SMART. I don’t remember now. I can tell that the other key, you
know, they were shaped a little different, one of them was the ignition
key, and I tried it, and it worked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if you were to see these keys, do you think that you
would recognize them?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir; I think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see the keys in the car, in the trunk of the
car?

Mr. SMART. Laying right in the floorboard of the trunk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Near the front?

Mr. SMART. Near the front.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Exposed to view?

Mr. SMART. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were they in relationship to the paper sacks and the
money bags?

Mr. SMART. To the right. The paper bags were more in the back. He had
two or three boxes of pictures of girls, and things like that, that we
just thumbed through, maybe stacks of them that high, a lot of cards
to his club. That was mostly what the stuff was in the trunk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if these keys were placed where you found them and
one had been driving that car, would the motion--were they placed in
such a way that the motion of the car or bumps and whatnot would move
these about?

Mr. SMART. I would think they would probably have scooted under papers
or something, would have been my guess, possibly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is there anything that you saw or that you have
learned that would indicate to you how long those keys might have been
in the back of that trunk prior to the time that you opened it?

Mr. SMART. You want my thought?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I do.

Mr. SMART. My thought, when I found things like they were, that Jack
Ruby had purposely put his billfold in the glove compartment and
purposely put his keys in the trunk compartment and locked it up and
purposely left his trunk key in the glove compartment so he could get
to it. That was my thought. I wondered why he left his billfold with
all of his identification in it in his glove compartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to have your opinion as a trained
investigator, anything else that led you to believe this or why, other
than simply the placement that we have just discussed, that would have
led you to think that he had done what you mentioned?

Mr. SMART. Because, when he left the car on the lot, there was no
attendant there, I guess was the main reason. He parked it in an odd
place and up on an incline deal on the lot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was it an odd place?

Mr. SMART. Well, the lot is kind of uneven, and it was pretty close out
to the center of the lot. It was where an old building had been torn
down and left some concrete in one place, you know, like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; would you--I am going to interrupt this just one
second here while I get this exhibit marked, and I am going to ask you,
while I mark this exhibit, would you draw on this piece of paper the
intersection there, the intersection of Commerce, Main and Pearl, and
then would you draw the parking lot where Ruby’s car was found?

Mr. SMART. These are two parking lots. They are all together but
separately operated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put the two streets in there so we would know
which is Main and which is Pearl? Now, which is Commerce?

Mr. SMART. This is south.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now. Let me ask you. Start over again here on
another sheet of paper. I want to get more detail on here.

Mr. SMART. Oh, I see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It would probably he easiest if you would draw the block,
Commerce, Harwood, Pearl and Main, and indicate the location of the
police department, the Western Union office and the parking lots on the
corner of Main and Pearl, and then show us which parking lot Jack’s car
was in.

Mr. SMART. I am not a very good artist, now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is okay. Is that the parking lot?

Mr. SMART. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. SMART. Roughly about there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, we will go on the record. Now, you have
drawn a diagram here, which I am going to mark, “Dallas, Texas,
Lieutenant Smart, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5023,” and that appears to be a
diagram of the intersection of Main and Pearl with the Western Union
marked and parking lot designated on the northwest corner of Main and
Pearl and an automobile marked out there. Is that pencil mark of an
automobile your best estimate of where you found Ruby’s car?

Mr. SMART. That is approximately about where the car was parked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other cars in the parking lot at that time?

Mr. SMART. At that time, the parking lot had opened officially; there
were a few more cars; I don’t recall where they were--and an attendant
there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were there any other cars parked next to Ruby’s car?

Mr. SMART. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than--did you mention the location of these keys and
the billfold to anybody?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you mention that to?

Mr. SMART. Homicide detectives.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any particular one?

Mr. SMART. There was two of them. I think it was Montgomery and his
partner. I am not sure. There is some new men in there that I don’t
know too well. We brought all of that stuff in there, showed Captain
Fritz what we had. He said, “Turn it over to them.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write any report in connection with this search to
the police department?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So there is no written report in the police department of
what you just told me?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be customary for anybody in the police department
to have written a report of what you told them?

Mr. SMART. It could be. I gave all of my information to the homicide
boys, because they were handling the case, turned the money over to
them, the keys, and turned everything over to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you do this favor to me? Inquire of Captain Fritz,
inquire and find out, if there is a report of what you told them, and,
if so, give us a copy of it so we could have it for our file?

Mr. SMART. Sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you also find in the automobile some radio
scripts or something that had to do--well, do you recall finding
anything that appeared to be radio scripts or political propaganda
materials?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; I tell you, Mr. Griffin. I was instructed to go
over there and get the money--it seemed like that is what he was
worried about, his money--and bring it over and put it in the property
room or have it put into the property room, and when I ran into the
billfold and the keys, I thought they should be over there, too, and
I told the homicide officers they should go back and make a thorough
check of the trunk and also that there might be some pertinent
information that they wanted, and I understood that they did. What they
found, now, I don’t know. I think that the FBI went, too, but I never
did go back and search anything else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you removed the billfold and the keys and the money?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir; and a sack of miscellaneous stuff and the papers
that were in the front seat pertaining to the assassination. I thought
that might have some bearing. He had about four or five current----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Newspapers?

Mr. SMART. With the spreads on the front, newspapers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they appear to be complete copies of a newspaper or
were articles cut out?

Mr. SMART. Complete copies----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember----

Mr. SMART. Which they were placed in the property room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see; now, did you file an inventory on that?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you turn that property over to?

Mr. SMART. To these two homicide officers. All I did was count the
money and initial it, so I would know myself, Swain and I did, so that
we would be protected on the amount of money. I understand that they
listed all of the stuff and inventoried it and so on and so forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you testify at the Ruby trial?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any personal knowledge that Captain Fritz
actually became aware of how you had found this billfold and the
location of the keys?

Mr. SMART. Do I know what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Captain Fritz ever actually became
aware of where you had actually found the keys and the billfold?

Mr. SMART. We carried the stuff to his office and Swain told him that
we had the money and his billfold and some things taken out of the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. SMART. I heard him tell Captain Fritz that; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is possible----

Mr. SMART. So he told these two fellows to take over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, if there were no actual written report of this ever
made----

Mr. SMART. If there is, I imagine Montgomery--I believe it is
Montgomery--I could be mistaken--but it is those two guys. I could find
out their names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, okay; all right; did you talk with Ruby at any time?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got back to the homicide office, saw Fritz,
had Fritz talked with Ruby by then?

Mr. SMART. I couldn’t tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back to the homicide office, had you been
told by anybody how Ruby got into the basement?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or did you hear any rumor about it?

Mr. SMART. Oh, I heard rumors; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you--when was the first time that you heard that Ruby
had told somebody how he got into the basement?

Mr. SMART. I am not sure where I heard it, but I heard it--some of the
boys talking, said that they heard that he said that he walked by some
officers down the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember which----

Mr. SMART. They were talking to Sam Pierce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; and do you remember which of the men you heard----

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Making this statement? How would they--would you have
heard this on the 24th, on the day that Ruby shot Oswald, or was it
sometime later?

Mr. SMART. I don’t remember, Mr. Griffin, now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You remember that there were a number of rumors that began
circulating right at the beginning, one that he came down the ramp, one
that he pushed a TV camera in, another one was that he used a press
pass, another one is that he got out of a police car?

Mr. SMART. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had you heard, are you able to remember whether you
have heard, any or all of these rumors on Sunday when you were there?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; I can’t. I just heard them somewhere around there,
heard somebody--they weren’t talking even to me, I don’t think. Just
discussing it or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me take this off of the record.

(Discussion off of the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s go on the record here. I am also going to mark
for identification as Exhibit 5024 a letter that you wrote to Chief
Curry on November 27 with respect to what you heard down there in the
basement.

Mr. SMART. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark it, “Dallas, Tex., Lieutenant Smart,
3-25-64, Exhibit 5024.” Now, I want you to look at Exhibit 5021 and
Exhibit 5024, and will you tell me if you have read those over?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir; I have read those.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have already stated, I believe, as to each one of
those that there is nothing that you would add or subtract from that or
correct?

Mr. SMART. No, sir. If I knew something that would help you, I would
tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you sign each of those in some place where it is
conspicuous and date it?

Mr. SMART. Just the front sheet?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right, just the place where I have got it marked.
Now, would you also look at Exhibit 5022? That is the diagram of the
basement. You put some markings on that. Would you sign that? Would you
also take this Exhibit 5023, which you prepared? It is a diagram of the
intersection of Main and Pearl Expressway. Okay. I am much obliged,
lieutenant.

Mr. SMART. Okay, Mr. Griffin. I wish I could help you.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN ALLISON SMITH

The testimony of John Allison Smith was taken at 2 p.m., on April 15,
1964, at the Post Office Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D.
Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff
of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of President Johnson’s Executive Order 11130,
dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and
the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with
that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Smith.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mr. Smith, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and
any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry,
and particularly as to whether or not an individual by the name of
Jack Ruby was seen by you on Commerce Street near the Dallas Police
Department Building on November 24, 1963.

Now, Mr. Smith, I think that you are appearing here today as a result
of a letter addressed to you from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, the General
Counsel for the Commission, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it true that that letter was received by you more than 3
days ago from today?

Mr. SMITH. It was received last Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. And today, of course, is Wednesday?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, do you mind taking the oath? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SMITH. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. State your name.

Mr. SMITH. John Allison Smith.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Smith?

Mr. SMITH. This being 1964, I am 42 at present.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?

Mr. SMITH. 22 Shadowbrook Lane in Hurst, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. H-u-r-s-t?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. SMITH. I am classified as a TV technician.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have the same occupation on November 22, 23, and
24, 1963?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, I did.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been employed by WBAP-TV?

Mr. SMITH. Since November the 22d, 1945.

Mr. HUBERT. Now were you on duty in your occupation in Dallas on
November 23 and November 24, 1963.

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you with the remote truck owned and operated by WBAP?

Mr. SMITH. I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Who else was with you in the operations during those days?

Mr. SMITH. Well, there was quite a large crew. The way we are situated,
there is a basic crew that stays in the truck. That is “in person,”
that has to do with the picture, and one has to do with the sound, and
that other person that is connected with the sound is Mr. Walker.

Mr. HUBERT. Ira Walker?

Mr. SMITH. Yes. In this particular case, ordinarily there is no
cameraman near the structure because they are usually in the premises,
but in this case we had a camera on top of the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was manning that camera on November 24?

Mr. SMITH. That was Mr. Richey.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Warren Richey?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now those two gentlemen came down here with you today and
are outside in the anteroom, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your duty during those days?

Mr. SMITH. Well, call it “riding gain on the video.” What it amounts to
is, to adjust the picture information, using an oscilloscope and that
sort of thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that require that you be inside of the truck?

Mr. SMITH. Generally. You make short trips outside the truck. The
one case that has to do with this particular thing, the man that is
responsible for the video has to deal with the telephone company as
to the class of picture that you are sending out and so on. It was
during one of these particular trips away from the truck to contact the
telephone company that I first saw this person that I believe to be the
same man as Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what time that was?

Mr. SMITH. Now here the times are going to have to be fairly accurate.
As far as minutes and seconds, we don’t watch things that closely,
but the first time I saw this person has to be somewhere in the
neighborhood of 8:15 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Now there must be some reason why you fix that time?

Mr. SMITH. We went to work at 7, and it takes approximately an hour to
turn everything on and get it all warmed up to proper operation. Then
we go through this thing of what we call “lineup procedure,” on all the
cameras, which we had done. So for that reason, I placed this time at
approximately an hour after 7 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. But when all that procedure is done, did you leave the
truck?

Mr. SMITH. Not yet.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.

Mr. SMITH. We had adjusted all these pictures, and in this particular
instance, there were only two. We called the telephone company and they
looked at our signal, and if they have any complaints or questions
about the quality of the picture, they would tell you what it was.
There was a complaint about the picture that I didn’t agree with, so
we generally get together and one of us looks at the other picture and
talk it over and see what the thing amounts to. So I had gone around to
the telephone company. It is a mobile home little trailer set up where
they put the microwave equipment. Now this was on the west side of the
city hall building there.

Mr. HUBERT. What street was it on?

Mr. SMITH. Well, what street?

Mr. HUBERT. Your truck was on Commerce Street, wasn’t it?

Mr. SMITH. Yes. We were facing east.

Mr. HUBERT. That is a one-way street going east, and you were facing
east? You were on the left-hand side of that street?

Mr. SMITH. Yes. And this trailer was around on the west side of this
building in the middle of the block.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was on the street which the back of your
trucked faced?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. To go from your truck to that little vehicle you are
talking about, you would have to turn left off of your truck, walk down
to the corner and then turn right toward Main Street?

Mr. SMITH. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Now let me suggest to you that that street is called
Harwood Street, and if you will keep that in mind, we can refer to it
as Harwood Street. I think it will make it simpler from now on. How far
on Harwood Street from the corner of Commerce was that little vehicle
of the telephone company parked?

Mr. SMITH. I would estimate it would be almost exactly halfway up the
block.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing an entrance to the building around
there?

Mr. SMITH. It is right in front of the main entrance, the west side.

Mr. HUBERT. The telephone company truck was right in front of the main
entrance?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it on the same side of the street as the main entrance
or the opposite side?

Mr. SMITH. Same side.

Mr. HUBERT. So you walked up to that truck?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you figure that because of all you have told us, that
considering the hour that it would have taken to warm up, considering
that you came and started off at approximately 7 and then you got the
complaints and you walked over, it must have been in the neighborhood
of 8:15?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see this man that we are talking about, or will in
a moment, on the way to the telephone vehicle, or on the way back?

Mr. SMITH. It was on the way back.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay at the telephone truck then?

Mr. SMITH. It was several minutes. We had to hook up a scope and he
made some adjustments there. I think I would say I was at the truck at
least 10 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you walked back?

Mr. SMITH. These are guesses.

Mr. HUBERT. You walked back to your truck?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first see this individual?

Mr. SMITH. When I got around the corner and almost back to our truck,
this person was standing there on the sidewalk almost parallel with our
truck. That is in the vicinity of the door of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. The door of the city hall, or of the police department
building?

Mr. SMITH. Building. I refer to it as the city hall. What is the name
of that officially?

Mr. HUBERT. There are two. Actually one is the city hall or the
police department opening which is on the Harwood Street side of the
automobile exit. The building on the other side of the Commerce Street
exit from where your truck was is the municipal building.

Mr. SMITH. It wasn’t the municipal building. We didn’t go there until
later.

Mr. HUBERT. So he was standing about at the staircase entrance to the
Dallas Police Department Building on the sidewalk between the building
and your truck, right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How close did you get to him?

Mr. SMITH. Probably 30 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, where was he standing, or what was he doing,
rather?

Mr. SMITH. He was standing there looking up at the windows where we had
some cables running through. You see, we had camera gear up on this
floor where all the interrogation was taking place and all, and this
person was just standing there looking at the cables and inquisitive,
maybe.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a crowd of people around there?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; not at this time of day.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed, do you know?

Mr. SMITH. Now here this probably conflicts with anything you heard,
but I am talking about a particular person, and one that I saw had on a
light grey topcoat and a light grey hat, shabby appearance, not neat,
you know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice whether he had a tie on?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir. I was looking at him from a quarter.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a full view of him?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; not at this time. It is the type of person that
we see often when we go out on an early morning remote. It is the
person that is walking the street with no place to go. That is what he
impressed me as being. And it kind of fit in that he was just standing
looking up at these cables and doing nothing more than that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe him do anything else?

Mr. SMITH. Not at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see that same person later?

Mr. SMITH. Yes. Now here this is probably a more inaccurate guess than
the other as to time, but it was later in the morning. At least an hour
or maybe an hour and a half later than that. We were at a break and I
was sitting in the back of the truck, and to the best of my knowledge,
Walker was in there, but it was during the time when you are not
rehearsing and you are not on a standby condition. You are relaxed and
you are not familiar with this old truck, but I will try to picture
to you that it is an enclosed thing. It is kept rather dark for the
picture’s sake, and it gets warm in there. And sometime I will open
these curtains or turn on the fan and get a little ventilation. This
happens even in the wintertime. And I lowered the curtain on my side
and there stood this same man there.

Mr. HUBERT. There can be no doubt in your mind that that was the same
man you had seen earlier?

Mr. SMITH. That’s right. Now this is the same particular person that
I am talking about. They are one and the same. Same coat and same hat
and same everything. And when I opened the curtain, this man is no
less than 2 feet from the truck here, and he is standing there very
nonchalantly, you know, and he says, “Have they brought Oswald down
yet?”

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a glass window between you and this man?

Mr. SMITH. It wasn’t pulled to. It was open.

Mr. HUBERT. It was open?

Mr. SMITH. It is a sliding, double-sliding window.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you had a full-face view of him?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you were not in excess of 3 feet from him?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Your face and his face were not separated by more than 3
feet at that point?

Mr. SMITH. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. You heard him say, “Have they brought down Oswald yet?”

Mr. SMITH. “Have they brought Oswald down?” Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone answer him?

Mr. SMITH. I did. I don’t know how to explain it. You see, my first
reaction was one of a joke, you know. Here we were all sitting around
here for days waiting for this news story to develop, and a man asks
you have they brought Oswald down yet, and to me I am thinking if they
had brought him down and taken him to the county building, why would we
be here? And I started my answer like, “What do you think?” And then
he repeated his question again, “Have they brought him down?” And he
didn’t call his name the second time, like it was understood.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he really asked twice? The first time he
used Oswald’s name and the second time he referred to him by the use
of the pronoun “him,” and the second time you told him, “No”?

Mr. SMITH. I said, “No, sir; they haven’t brought him down, or we
wouldn’t still be sitting here.” And he just turned and walked away.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him there after that day?

Mr. SMITH. Now I think I did, and I am not sure. But this is the same
man. The third time was in a crowd, and I could tell you pretty well
what time this was, because KRLD put a camera in front of our truck at
approximately 10 a.m. That is another guess. But they had time to turn
that camera on and get it warm before all the news broke, so it had to
be somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 or maybe before. But after that
camera was set up, KRLD had a couple of engineers out there lining up
the camera.

Mr. HUBERT. That was on Commerce Street with the camera facing down
into the Commerce Street ramp of the building, I take it?

Mr. SMITH. They had this thing facing--you see, our truck wasn’t up to
the ramp. There was room for a car almost between our truck and the
ramp. Now they had this camera in that space right directly in front of
our truck there, and they had a man standing on the sidewalk lining up
their camera.

And this TV camera, it always draws a crowd, and at this time there was
quite a few people just standing around. But this man that I am talking
about, I am almost certain, was standing on the other side of the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Of the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; on the sidewalk, in a group of people, just standing
there watching the proceedings.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the time at which the police moved all of the
people from the police department side of Commerce Street over to the
other side?

Mr. SMITH. No; I don’t. Someone asked me that before. I don’t remember
that taking place. You see, I was never told anything about the move. I
was inside the truck, so I didn’t have any connection with that.

Mr. HUBERT. Now when you saw this man, or think you did, possibly did,
the third time, had you come out of your truck?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; I had been down in the basement. We were running some
microphone cords, you see. I know this adds up to an awful long story
how we move around so much, and it doesn’t make sense to you, I am
sure, but sometime during the morning Chief of Police Curry had told
us that we would not be allowed to go through the double doors that
separate the underground parking area from the underground office area.
It is a double door there adjacent to the elevator opening, and he had
told us that we would not be allowed beyond that door for any reason,
but that he would give us a good place to put a camera and a microphone
if we wouldn’t interfere with his passageway from there on out to the
parking lot.

So we had gotten permission to set this camera up right next to that
door, and we were the first camera in line there, and we were going
to run two microphones in there. That was the plan at that time, in
case they should allow an interview. We had hoped that they might,
which later didn’t work, but in the running of this microphone, this
microphone went through the downstairs door into the office area.
They didn’t go down the ramp or anywhere near the parking area, but
in running the microphones and in helping the Walker crew check out
the mikes and all coming back to the truck is when I had seen this man
standing over there to the left.

Mr. HUBERT. It was to your left as you came out of the Commerce Street
ramp?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How close did you get to him then?

Mr. SMITH. It was even further than before. It was all the way; well,
the length of our truck is 20 some odd feet, and it was a couple of car
lengths more; so I was 40 or 50 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he was a couple of car lengths beyond the
entrance, the Commerce Street exit, rather?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps I misunderstood you. Did you see him immediately as
you came out of the Commerce Street ramp exit, or when you got back to
the truck?

Mr. SMITH. Now I didn’t come up the ramp. I came up the steps.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see. When you came up the steps, you went to the back
of the truck?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. So the distance between you and him was the length of the
truck plus the distance between the front of your truck to the ramp,
plus the width of the ramp and some distance beyond that?

Mr. SMITH. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Making a total of, you think, roughly 40 feet or so?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And there he was not alone, but with other people, you
thought?

Mr. SMITH. Standing in a crowd.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see that individual any more?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir. Now you see it is hard for me to say that I could
identify that man if he were to walk in this room right now, because,
as far as I am concerned, I have only seen that face live one time.
That is when he came to the window. And seeing somebody in films and
all, that is kind of hard to associate.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, did you know Jack Ruby at all?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you have come, of course, to know the face and the man
called Jack Ruby?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you see the face of Jack Ruby in person, live, face to
face as it were?

Mr. SMITH. Not since; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you associated the face that you have come to know as
Jack Ruby from photographs and pictures and so forth, with the man that
we have been talking about for the last few minutes?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how that came about, and when?

Mr. SMITH. The closest that I ever made the association was when
we were shown a mug shot, and when I saw that mug shot, it was a
straight-on photograph, and it struck me as being the same face as the
one in the window.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any spontaneous reaction in that regard?

Mr. SMITH. Well, I was convinced to myself that that was the same man.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any observations to anyone to that effect?

Mr. SMITH. No, but Walker did to me.

Mr. HUBERT. At that moment?

Mr. SMITH. A couple of seconds later; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he looking at the mug shot, too?

Mr. SMITH. We were looking at the mug shot on a monitor in the truck.
You see, they took the mug shot out of the file upstairs in the City of
Dallas Police Department, brought the mug shots out into the corridor
and told the TV people they could take stills of it for their own use,
and then they would take the mug shot right back to the file, that no
one could have it to copy or anything like that.

Mr. HUBERT. So, in other words, you simply had the people on the third
floor put your camera unit on the mug shot?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And then it came through to your monitor?

Mr. SMITH. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you at that moment associate the face that you saw on
the mug shots in the monitor with the man that you had seen earlier and
which you have described to us?

Mr. SMITH. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any suggestion to you by Walker, or did you reach
that opinion before he said anything?

Mr. SMITH. I had noticed a distinct similarity. Now there is a
difference in that, when I saw him, he had on a hat, and that was the
only reason that I would not say positively that that is the same
man. But there is the only reservation that I have. But I had noticed
on my own that there was a tremendous similarity right through here
[indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. When the witness said “through here,” he was placing one
hand at the level of his forehead and the other hand under his chin.

Mr. SMITH. And a few minutes later, after this, Walker commented to me
that the person on that mug shot looked to him like the same one that
had been up to the truck a couple of times.

Mr. HUBERT. Had he told you prior to that that he had noticed this man
come to the truck a couple of times?

Mr. SMITH. Not prior to that.

Mr. HUBERT. So that your observation of this man coming up to the truck
a couple of times was independent of that of Walker, and it had not
been communicated between you?

Mr. SMITH. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you communicate your association between the mug shot
of Jack Ruby and the man you had seen, to Mr. Warren Richey?

Mr. SMITH. Not at this time. Several days later we discussed it, and we
seemed to be of the same opinion at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never seen Ruby in person since?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir. Let me say this. The person that I am talking about
is, I hate to say, dirty, an unkempt person that possibly could have
slept with his clothes on, you see. He would be the opposite of what we
see in these photographs of a well-dressed, natty person with stylish
clothes. I am talking about the opposite type of person from that.

Mr. HUBERT. Now let me ask you this. Aside from your association of
the man on the street and the mug shot of Ruby, have you in your
mind compared your recollection of the man on the street with other
photographs that you have seen of Ruby?

Mr. SMITH. No. I have never seen a photograph of Ruby that gives me
that same picture; you know what I mean.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the answer is really that you have made the
comparison, but that you cannot feel as sure that the man on the street
was the Jack Ruby that you saw in subsequent pictures?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. At least as much as you feel that the man on the street was
the Jack Ruby you saw in the mug shot?

Mr. SMITH. Right. Now I am drawing a comparison between the man in the
window and the mug shot. Those two struck me as being the same. The
pictures that I saw in film are not as familiar to me, you know. That
is hard to explain. I don’t guess it makes sense, does it?

Mr. HUBERT. Would you venture to say that the man on the street whose
face came within 3 feet of yours and the man in the mug shot were,
beyond any reasonable doubt, the same person?

Mr. SMITH. The only reason that I would have any doubt was this thing
of the hat. Now I couldn’t see his hairline and I couldn’t see the
complete face. With that thing in mind, I would not say that positively
is the same man; I can’t say that.

Mr. HUBERT. But you did see the complete face when you were within 3
feet of him?

Mr. SMITH. Yes. He had the hat on.

Mr. HUBERT. And the mug shot did not, I take it?

Mr. SMITH. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. With that reservation, you would have no doubt it is the
same person?

Mr. SMITH. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Smith, I have in my hand a copy of a report of an
interview of you dated December 4, 1963, made by FBI Agents Haley and
Madland which I have marked for identification as follows: “Fort Worth,
Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5317, deposition of John A. Smith,” and
I signed my name below it. I would like you to read this, and after, I
will ask you some questions about it.

(Mr. Smith reads report.)

Mr. SMITH. This thing doesn’t refer to him asking the question twice,
which I believe I mentioned before, but essentially that is true.

Mr. HUBERT. At the time that you were interviewed by Mr. Haley and Mr.
Madland, were there other people present?

Mr. SMITH. Let’s see; Mr. Haley, I believe, was the one that came over
by himself. Then another--you see, I have been contacted three or four
times, and I am not the best on names. We were contacted by two people
at one time, and I believe they were from the city police department. I
am not sure. I can’t even remember when I met Mr. Davis. He was on one
of those.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall an interview that was had by FBI agents in
the studio at which Richey and Walker were present?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, addressing yourself to that interview, was it
conducted individually or as a group?

Mr. SMITH. When I first got there, he was talking to one of the others.

Mr. HUBERT. He, or were there two people?

Mr. SMITH. Just one. There was one person conducting the interview,
and he was talking to--I am not sure--he was, I believe, talking to
Jimmy Turner, and I stayed there for several minutes. And this other
interview was concluded. Then I was interviewed separately, alone. Then
Walker, I believe, came in, and he talked to both of us for several
minutes. Then we went out to the garage where the truck is parked and
he looked at the physical layout of the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you ever have an individual interview with Haley
and Madland, the FBI men?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; I had an interview with one FBI man, individually.

Mr. HUBERT. On the same day as the general?

Mr. SMITH. No. This was prior to this day I am talking about, and I
believe that first man was Mr. Haley. I believe he was the first one
there, and I am not sure about the name. But the first FBI man that
contacted me--us, talked to us individually. At least he talked to me
individually.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been interviewed by any member of the
President’s Commission staff prior to this time?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else you want to add?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; except to say that I hope that we make sense. When
all this happened, we weren’t paying any attention to time, faces, or
anything else. And I do hope that what we do kind of makes sense to
you. I am afraid it doesn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. It does to me. Thank you very much, indeed.

Mr. SMITH. This whole thing has been kind of a horrible experience,
hasn’t it?

Mr. HUBERT. Glad you came over.

Mr. SMITH. If we can help in any way, just call us.

TESTIMONY OF JESSE M. STRONG

The testimony of Jesse M. Strong was taken at 12:35 p.m., on March 31,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of J. M. Strong [spelling]
S-t-r-o-n-g.

Mr. Strong, my name is Leon Hubert. I’m a member of the advisory
staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the
provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint
Resolution of Congress No. 137, and rules of procedure adopted by
the Commission in conformance with that Executive order, I have been
authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you that the
general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate,
and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President
Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular to you, Mr. Strong, the nature of our inquiry is to
determine the facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other
pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, particularly
in the field of the Western Union telegram that is involved in this
matter. Now, Mr. Strong, I understand that you have appeared here today
by virtue of a request made by a letter addressed to you by J. Lee
Rankin, General Counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that letter was received by you more than 3 days
ago, is that correct?

Mr. STRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you stand so that you may take the oath.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. STRONG. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your name?

Mr. STRONG. Yes. Jesse M. Strong.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. STRONG. 62.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Mr. STRONG. 612 Edgewood Terrace, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. STRONG. Relief night manager at Western Union.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been connected with Western Union Co.
altogether?

Mr. STRONG. Since January 1923.

Mr. HUBERT. Near 40 years?

Mr. STRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Over 40.

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir; 41, to be exact.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty with the Western Union Co. in Fort Worth
on November 24, 1963?

Mr. STRONG. Yes; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. What office were you then located at?

Mr. STRONG. The Fort Worth office located at Main and Third, Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I invite your attention to a document which, for
purposes of identification, I am marking “Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964.
Exhibit 5121, Deposition of J. E. Strong----”

Mr. STRONG. J. M.

Mr. HUBERT. J. M. Strong [spelling] S-t-r-o-n-g.

Mr. STRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I am placing my name on that document also, and so that the
record may show that both of us are talking about the same document,
I will ask you to put your name below it. I am also marking another
document, “Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964. Exhibit 5120, Deposition of
J. M. Strong” placing my name on that document and I ask you to place
your name on it so that the record may show that we are both speaking
of the same document. Now, I hand you the document that has been
identified for the record as Exhibit 5121, and ask you to state what
that document is?

Mr. STRONG. It is a copy of the money order as received in Fort Worth
at 12:56 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. On what date?

Mr. STRONG. On November 24, 1963--1964.

Mr. HUBERT. 1964?

Mr. STRONG. I’m sorry. Yes, certainly, payable to Karen Bennett sent by
Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with that transaction?

Mr. STRONG. I actually paid the $25 to Karen Bennett when she came into
the office, approximately at 3:20 p.m., on the afternoon of November 24.

Mr. HUBERT. In what way do you identify this document? Is there
anything on it?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, I asked her for identification and she presented her
California driver’s license No. 768114, and description, black hair,
blue eyes, height 5 feet 2. Weight 105.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that those figures that you have just read off
appear on the face of that document, is that correct?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In whose handwriting are those figures written?

Mr. STRONG. Mine. I wrote it.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the significance of a time stamp, apparently,
reading as follows: “1963, November 24th, p.m. 12:54.”

Mr. STRONG. After Karen Bennett had signed the receipt for the money
and I handed her the $25, I put this under the time stamp and stamped
the time the transaction was completed.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think there you have reference to the other stamped
time as--reading as follows:

“1963, November 24th, p.m. 3:25”?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But, I----

Mr. STRONG. I’m sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. I asked you about the 12:54.

Mr. STRONG. I’m sorry, that is the time it was received in our traffic
department located on the third floor of the building at Third and Main.

Mr. HUBERT. How is that time stamped?

Mr. STRONG. By a time stamp the same as we have in all the offices.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that one of those timeclocks that the Western Union----

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. HUBERT. To your knowledge, is that synchronized to national time?

Mr. STRONG. I am not too certain of that, because they can be set
rather easily with a key, and they have--it is, I believe, an
independent unit. Now, it might be synchronized as a group, but I don’t
believe with a master clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you sure of that?

Mr. STRONG. No, sir; I am not--I am not too positive of it, yet, it
could be--very well be tied into the master circuit and synchronized
the same as the clocks are.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any clocks that are used in the Fort Worth
office that are not synchronized into the national circuit?

Mr. STRONG. You are speaking of time stamps? No, no; they are all on
the same circuit.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it be your opinion that all the time stamps on this
Exhibit 5121 were stamped by machines that are synchronized to the
national circuit?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir; I believe that is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have already testified that the other time
stamp on here, to wit: “3:25 p.m., November 24th,” indicates the time
that the money was actually delivered, is that correct?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, as soon as I had paid her the money I turned that
immediately and stamped that on the clock.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the time of delivery of the money and time of
stamping are almost identical?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, but a few seconds intervening.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have an independent recollection of this
transaction, Mr. Strong?

Mr. STRONG. Nothing that was outstanding, sir, because as a party
comes in inquiring for money and they have the money order, there is
a routine form, almost has become routine, that we use to satisfy
ourselves that the right party is receiving the money.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether the person made inquiry about this
money at any time prior to the time that the money was actually----

Mr. STRONG. That is apparently true although I did not talk with her
myself, but in the lower right-hand corner you will find the letters,
“WC”, which indicates will-call. That was placed there by one of our
telephone operators who had answered her inquiry and gone to the file
and searched this out and told her that it was there and that she had
informed her that she would call at the office for the money.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get this information from that telephone operator?

Mr. STRONG. No; but it was on--it was given directly to me and I just
recorded it on the form.

Mr. HUBERT. So that when this document came into your possession you
knew from the numerals, or letters, “WC”, that there would be a call?

Mr. STRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is this?

Mr. STRONG. That is the initial JMS, and California driver’s
license--California--Calif--driver’s license, BR, abbreviations.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that the identification on the driver’s license?

Mr. STRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I show you on Exhibit 5121, stamped on an angle right below
the word “Union,” in large letters what appears to be another stamp of
time which is not quite clear to me. It seems to say, 1963, November
24th, and then something in parentheses, and 60 something. Can you tell
us what that means?

Mr. STRONG. Yes; the 26 in parentheses is the digit time that the
operator completed the transmission of the message in Dallas one
day---the filing time on the application will show 12:26, that the time
the operator completed sending it. This 1:04 p.m. is the time that the
money order actually reached the main floor after the operator on the
third floor released it. We stamp it again when it comes down again
from the operating room--the money order department, and that was what
the 1:04 p.m. means, actually received the money.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the parentheses?

Mr. STRONG. I say, the digit number when the operator in Dallas
completed sending it. In other words, here the message was filed at
11:17 a.m., sent back to the traffic department and the operator put
her stamp on it, and when it is completed then she puts the 2:06 in
digits indicating that the transaction was completed now, which would
have been 11:26 I assume.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that is when the telegram got back to Dallas?

Mr. STRONG. That is when it left Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it would not have left Dallas on November 26.

Mr. STRONG. No; this is the digited time.

In other words, either 11:26 a.m., or 12:26 p.m. indicating that the
operator had completed the transaction at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I show you another document which has been
identified as Exhibit 5120, and ask you what this document represents?

Mr. STRONG. On certain money orders when the party is coming into the
office to receive payment we make up what we call a receipt form. That,
you will notice, is a money order receipt form with my initials, J. M.
S., and D. L. L., and No. 4, the wire number out of Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Does this conform with the number on Exhibit No. 5121?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, the same number.

Mr. HUBERT. I see.

Mr. STRONG. And then, of course, the dates and the sender’s name, the
office from which the money order came. The date, the amount and the
payee’s name.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, who typed that out?

Mr. STRONG. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. On Exhibit 5120?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, I typed all of this.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I see a signature there which purports to be that of
Karen Bennett. Who signed----

Mr. STRONG. Karen Bennett supposedly is the one who came in and
presented the California driver’s license.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are referring to the figures on Exhibit No. 5120,
is that right?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she sign that in your presence?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think you have already testified that from the time
stamp on Document 5121, she would have signed that at approximately
3:25 p.m., on November 24, 1963, is that correct?

Mr. STRONG. That’s correct, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. There is nothing on Exhibit 5120, that indicates the time
of sending, is that right?

Mr. STRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you able to state, however, that the time stamped on
5121, indicates that the transaction was completed at 3:25 p.m., on
November 24, 1963?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, immediately after Karen Bennett signed this receipt I
stamped----

Mr. HUBERT. “This receipt,” to wit: Exhibit 5121?

Mr. STRONG. Then I stamped the Exhibit 5121, to show the time that
payment had been made.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s all you know about the matter?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember if Karen Bennett was alone or was there
someone with her?

Mr. STRONG. She was alone. There was no one with her that came into the
office.

Mr. HUBERT. Had she been waiting around?

Mr. STRONG. No, sir; no. She walked in and I immediately waited upon
her. Asked her if I might help her, and she told me she was expecting
a money order, and, of course, I went through the money order file and
paid her upon her identification.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you prepared the money order receipt, which is
identified as Exhibit 5120, prior to the time she came in?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, we do that as quickly as they come in, as we find the
time to do so.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, we have been speaking about Exhibit 5120, in a sense
that might indicate we were dealing with the original document. I asked
you if it is not true that the actual piece of paper that we have
identified as 5120, is a photostatic copy of it?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, it is. The original would be green in color.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. There are some initials on 5120 following the words,
“Issuing employee.” Whose initials are those?

Mr. STRONG. Those are my initials indicating that I paid the money
order.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Strong, have you had any interviews with any members of
the President’s Commission other than myself in regard to this matter?

Mr. STRONG. No, I have not.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there was an interview between you and me prior to the
commencement of this deposition earlier this morning?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In this deposition, have we covered everything that was
covered in the course of our interview?

Mr. STRONG. I think so. I don’t believe there is anything I can add
there.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any inconsistencies in our interview that
have not been developed in the course of this deposition?

Mr. STRONG. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. HUBERT. This Karen Bennett came in in a normal manner and left in a
normal manner and exhibited no emotion whatsoever?

Mr. STRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of the shooting of Oswald when she came in?

Mr. STRONG. No, sir; I did not. I have been on duty since 7 o’clock
that morning with no means of communication whatsoever. In fact, I did
not know it until after payment of this money order had been made. One
of the messengers mentioned the fact that Oswald had been killed, and
that a party by the name of Rubenstein had shot him, which couldn’t
register with me at all, because I did not connect the names.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Karen Bennett indicate in any way that she knew that
Ruby had shot Oswald?

Mr. STRONG. No, sir; there was no conversation between us at all other
than the conversation in respect to the money order.

Mr. HUBERT. And the identification?

Mr. STRONG. Pardon me?

Mr. HUBERT. And the identification?

Mr. STRONG. And the identification. After the transaction she left
the office and there was no occasion of that--there was no further
conversation.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir.

TESTIMONY OF IRA N. WALKER, JR.

The testimony of Ira N. Walker, Jr., was taken at 1 p.m., on April 15,
1964, at the Post Office Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D.
Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Ira N. Walker, Jr.

Mr. Walker, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy.

Under the provisions of President Johnson’s Executive Order 11130,
dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and
the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with
that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Walker.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Walker, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and
any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry,
and particularly about the whereabouts of Jack Ruby near the Police
Department Building in Dallas on November 24.

Now, Mr. Walker, I believe you appeared here today by virtue of a
request made in writing to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of
the President’s Commission. For the record, would you state whether you
received that letter?

Mr. WALKER. I did; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mr. WALKER. Must have been last Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. It was in excess of 3 days ago?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, so would you mind taking the oath?

Mr. WALKER. I will.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?

Mr. WALKER. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your name, please, sir.

Mr. WALKER. Ira N. Walker, Jr.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your age, sir?

Mr. WALKER. Thirty-five.

Mr. HUBERT. And your address?

Mr. WALKER. 6913 Hightower.

Mr. HUBERT. Fort Worth?

Mr. WALKER. Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. WALKER. Broadcast technician.

Mr. HUBERT. What station?

Mr. WALKER. WBAP-TV.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. WALKER. Since 1948.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty in Dallas in connection with the visit of
the President of the United States on November 22?

Mr. WALKER. I was on duty after the assassination of the President.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first go on duty?

Mr. WALKER. In Dallas, the afternoon of the shooting. We went to
Parkland Hospital.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say, “we,” who do you mean?

Mr. WALKER. Our remote crew truck and crew of about four of five of us,
the first day.

Mr. HUBERT. You say a remote truck? Is that one of those trucks like a
Greyhound bus that you haul the equipment?

Mr. WALKER. It is a little smaller than that, but it is the same.

Mr. HUBERT. What does your crew generally consist of? Or what did it
consist of during that period we are talking about?

Mr. WALKER. Well, the first day, that was a rush deal and there wasn’t
but four of us available, I think. And the second day, there was
probably about eight of us, I imagine.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the first day, you mean the first day after the
President’s assassination?

Mr. WALKER. Yes. Just after the assassination we took the truck with
the men available and went.

Mr. HUBERT. That was on the 22d?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So when you talk about the first day, you mean the day of
the assassination?

Mr. WALKER. The day of the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say you “took” and “went,” did you go from Fort
Worth?

Mr. WALKER. From Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. To Parkland Hospital?

Mr. WALKER. We had already been to the President’s breakfast here in
Fort Worth, and I covered that for radio here in Fort Worth. There was
a crew with the TV truck here in Fort Worth, and they had already gone
home at the time the President was assassinated, and I was still on
duty, and they were called back in.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, could you name for us the people who were on the
remote truck on the first day after the assassination of the President?
That is to say, November 22.

Mr. WALKER. Well, let’s see, Johnny Smith and Warren Richey.

Mr. HUBERT. And yourself?

Mr. WALKER. And myself, and Dan Smith went that first day, I think. I
don’t think he went any more.

Mr. HUBERT. Now each of you all had a definite function to perform, of
course?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that we get it for the record and need not repeat it
with the other witnesses, tell us the functions of each one of you on
the truck.

Mr. WALKER. I was to handle audio, Johnny Smith was the video engineer,
and the other two men were cameramen.

Mr. HUBERT. One of them drove the truck, I take it? Or did you have
another man to drive?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; Johnny Smith was driving the larger truck, and I was
in the little panel truck. And Supervisor Tom Bedford was driving the
panel truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that on the first day?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s pass to the second day. That is to say, Saturday
the 23d. And by way of orientation, let me state that by that time, of
course, the President was dead and Oswald had been charged both with
the assassination of Officer Tippit and President Kennedy, and was
in custody at the Dallas Police Department Building on Commerce, the
building bounded by Commerce and Main on two sides, and Harwood on the
front.

Now, on that second day, the 23d, did you have occasion to be on duty
with the remote truck that day?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. All day long?

Mr. WALKER. Well, we were called out of bed at 1 o’clock Saturday
morning. Let’s see, we burnt the engine up on the remote truck going to
Parkland Hospital the day before, and it had to be towed over there by
a wrecker, and I don’t know exactly what time we got to the Dallas City
Hall. It was probably something like 3 in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you park the truck, the remote truck?

Mr. WALKER. On the south side. That would be on Commerce Street, I
believe. Right in front of the entrance.

Mr. HUBERT. The Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How far away from the front, if you remember, roughly?

Mr. WALKER. Let’s see, there was, I believe, another remote truck
between our truck and the corner.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say the corner of Commerce and Harwood?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were closer to the Commerce Street entrance than that
truck was?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; we were directly in front of the Commerce Street
stairway.

Mr. HUBERT. The Commerce Street exit from the basement is just beyond
the Commerce Street stairway in the direction of Pearl Street, the
Pearl Expressway?

Mr. WALKER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. So I suppose it is fair to say that the front of your truck
was not far from the Commerce Street exit?

Mr. WALKER. Well, the front of our truck was--there was just room
enough for a motorcycle to park between the front of our truck and the
driveway going to the basement of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you had cameras on the inside, I take it?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And on the outside, too?

Mr. WALKER. And one on top of the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the truck stay there all that day?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; it stayed there all that day and that night.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the next day, the 24th?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; it was there all day the 24th up until, let’s see, I
won’t tell you--I want to tell you very much, but this is very hard.
That was a lost week for me. We slept very little, and most of the time
I couldn’t even tell you what day it was over there, so it is difficult
to say.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way. To your knowledge, the truck never
moved from its position as you have described it on Commerce Street
until after the assassination of Oswald?

Mr. WALKER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty continuously?

Mr. WALKER. The first day on Saturday, let’s see, we came in at--they
woke us up about a little after 1 in the morning, and I was there
until, I know, after 10 that night.

Mr. HUBERT. Saturday night?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir; I was going to bring that schedule with me and I
forgot. It was in last year’s book.

Mr. HUBERT. Then at what time did you go to work on Sunday morning?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t remember. It was early, but I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say it was daylight?

Mr. WALKER. It was right at daylight, I imagine. There was only one
day that we came in late, and I believe it was later on in the week.
We were over there early every morning except one, and we came in at
9 o’clock, that morning, but I believe it was later on on Monday or
Tuesday.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby or of his existence prior to, say,
the assassination of the President?

Mr. WALKER. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first see a man that you now know to be Jack
Ruby, if you did see such a man?

Mr. WALKER. I did see him, and I would say it was sometime after 10:30
in the morning that Oswald was shot.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, of the 24th?

Mr. WALKER. Let’s see; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you didn’t know him at the time you saw him?

Mr. WALKER. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record just how you came to see
this person?

Mr. WALKER. I was sitting in the truck at the audio board. We were
waiting for Oswald to be brought down. The press had been told he would
not be transferred until after 10:30 in the morning. That is the only
thing I can tie the time down to, because we were on a standby basis
waiting for Oswald to be moved, and Ruby came to the window of the
truck and asked, “Has he been brought down yet?” He was standing on the
sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know him to be Ruby at that time?

Mr. WALKER. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us how he was dressed?

Mr. WALKER. No; I can’t. All I could see was his face. It is a very
small window. We have curtains, and I think it was one corner unsnapped.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat on?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t know. He came to the window twice.

Mr. HUBERT. How far apart were the two times?

Mr. WALKER. I do not know. It was after 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think he could have come to the window earlier than
10:30?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t know. I don’t believe at the time I saw him at the
window, well, I am almost sure it was after 10:30, because I know I was
sitting there. We were on a standby basis and waiting, and he did not
mention Oswald’s name, that I can remember.

It was, he just said, “Has he been brought down yet?” And everybody
knew who he was talking about, or I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Now have you seen Ruby since?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How many times, do you suppose?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t know. It was over--I was a witness during the
trial. I saw him before I was a witness, and I saw them bring him into
the courtroom one morning.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, all the times you saw him were in
connection with your function as a TV man covering the trial?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; I was asked by the district attorney’s office to
go look at Jack Ruby through the door of the courtroom prior to being a
witness, to make sure that he was the same man that I saw come to the
truck. And then I saw him while I was a witness.

Mr. HUBERT. When you did look through the door at the district
attorney’s request and saw Jack Ruby, what opinion did you reach?

Mr. WALKER. I knew it was the same man.

Mr. HUBERT. And you subsequently saw him in the court when you
testified?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to say that the same man who was Jack Ruby
in the courtroom was the man whom you described as coming up to the
window?

Mr. WALKER. That was the same thing I told the Dallas district
attorney, that the only reason I remember Jack Ruby is because within
minutes after the shooting we had mug shots of Ruby on camera from the
third floor of the city hall. And if it hadn’t been for those mug shots
being in such a close time after he came to the window, I probably
would never have remembered seeing him.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us the mental process you went through in
relating the face at the window to the mug shots?

Mr. WALKER. Well, about four of us pointed at him at the same time in
the truck. I mean, we all recognized him at the same time.

Mr. HUBERT. As being the man?

Mr. WALKER. That had come to the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. It is your thought that that man who had peeked through the
window had done so only a matter of minutes before, or would it have
been an hour?

Mr. WALKER. I can’t say. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. But as you sit here now, your best impression is
that--better still, your opinion is that the man who did look through
that window and asked you, “Have they brought him down yet?” was Jack
Ruby?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, you have confirmed that a number of
times, to wit, almost immediately after when you saw the mug shots on
TV, and then at least on two other occasions when you looked in through
the window in the courtroom, and again when you were face to face with
him in the courtroom?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there any possibility that your seeing him as you have
described it through the window, could have been on the previous day?

Mr. WALKER. No. He may have been there, but I don’t remember him.

Mr. HUBERT. This event that you are talking about did not take place on
the previous day?

Mr. WALKER. No. I have heard people say that he was on, that they had
seen him on the sidewalk, but I did not, to my knowledge. There were so
many people; a lot of people asked questions, and most of the time I
say, “I don’t know,” hoping they will go on.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand, the thing that makes it certain in your
mind that he was Jack Ruby is because of the association of the face
that peered to you in the window and the mug shots that came through
the camera right after?

Mr. WALKER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. The two link together in your mind?

Mr. WALKER. That is the only thing. I would not have remembered him if
it had not been for the mug shots. There were so many people, there is
no way I believe that I could have remembered him. And if he hadn’t
come back to the window the second time, I might not have linked it
with the mug shots.

Mr. HUBERT. How much time was there, do you think, between the two
times?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t know. I really don’t. I wish I could help but
anything I’d say would be a wild guess.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Walker, I want to show you a report of an interview
that was had of you by FBI Agents Earle Haley and Robley D. Madland on
December 4, 1963, which I have marked for identification as Fort Worth,
Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5315, deposition of Ira Walker, under
which I have signed my name. I would like you to read it, sir, after
which I am going to ask you if there are any errors or any corrections
you want to make, anything that has been omitted, or modifications that
you believe to be necessary.

Mr. WALKER. [Reading report.]

No. I wasn’t the one that said, “I saw him between 7:30 and 8 a.m.”

Mr. HUBERT. That FBI report which has been identified as 5315, contains
the statement in the middle paragraph reading as follows, to wit:

“Walker said that on the morning of November 24, that the first time
he recalled seeing Jack Ruby was shortly before the mobile unit was
set up, which would have been between 7:30 and 8 a.m. Walker said that
he first saw Ruby shortly after the armored truck was backed into the
basement of the Police Department.” Now would you address your comments
to that statement, Mr. Walker?

Mr. WALKER. I believe one of the other boys said he saw him between
7:30 and 8, but it was not me because I don’t remember seeing him. But
as far as the association with the armored truck, now the armored truck
was not backed into there until around 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that when you saw Ruby the first time----

Mr. WALKER. Was after 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Was after the armored truck was backed in?

Mr. WALKER. It was after I was on a standby basis and sitting in my
seat in the truck just waiting for somebody to roll tape.

Mr. HUBERT. What does the standby basis mean in the TV industry?

Mr. WALKER. It means to stand by to go on the air any time on call at a
moment’s notice, because we had been told he would be moved after 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any distinct recollection that the first time
you saw him was after the armored truck was moved in?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t believe the armored truck was backed in until after
10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. So as I understand it then, with respect to the language in
Exhibit 5315, there are really two corrections that you wish to make.
One is concerning the time 7:30 to 8, and the other is concerning the
relation between your seeing Ruby and the truck backing into the ramp?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Your thought, then, as I understand, is that it was
considerably later than 7:30 or 8 o’clock, in fact, it was about 10:30?

Mr. WALKER. Or after.

Mr. HUBERT. Or after, but you think that it was before the armored
truck backed in?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. It could be either?

Mr. WALKER. It could be either; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You did see him twice, though?

Mr. WALKER. I did see him at the window twice.

Mr. HUBERT. It is possible that the first time you saw him, the armored
truck had not backed in and the second time it had?

Mr. WALKER. It is possible; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would your best guess be, considering--well, I don’t want
you to guess. Would your best impression or opinion now be that the
time that you first saw Ruby was less than an hour before the shooting
of Oswald took place?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that thereafter, the time that you saw him on the
second time would have been less than an hour, too?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You do not have any recollection now, as I understand, as
to the time interval between the two times you saw him?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have said that--perhaps we should repeat what
he told you on each occasion or what he said or asked?

Mr. WALKER. As near as I can remember, he just asked, “Has he been
brought down?” or “Have they brought him down yet?”

Mr. HUBERT. On both occasions?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; and I am not sure, I probably told him “I don’t know.”
It says here that I said, “No.” But I have no way of knowing yes or
no, really, which is true. We had cameras, and I could see what the
cameramen were doing, but I still really have no way of knowing.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you’d better describe for the record what you meant
by mug shots?

Mr. WALKER. Well, as I understand it, from listening on the intercom,
we were told we were going to get pictures of Jack Ruby and that we
would have to get them right away because our people did not have the
pictures and would not be allowed to have them, and I assumed that
someone from the police department would be holding those pictures,
because they--we were told to get the tapes to rolling, because we
wouldn’t get a second shot at him. And it would just be, get them or
miss them, and I presume that someone in the police department was
holding those pictures.

Mr. HUBERT. In front of a camera inside the jail?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It was that mug shot that you remembered talking about that
immediately brought to your mind “this is the man I saw just before the
shooting of Oswald, or sometime before the shooting”?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now have you been interviewed by any member of the
President’s Commission before this date, sir?

Mr. WALKER. No; only there were some FBI men came to the station, and I
believe they are the men you mentioned here.

Mr. HUBERT. I meant members of the President’s Commission?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. I have omitted to explore one area. You were called as a
witness in the trial of Ruby?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the general nature of your testimony then?

Mr. WALKER. To state the same thing that I have here, that Jack Ruby
came to the window of the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. You were called by the State?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. To the best of your recollection, has your testimony today
been any different from that which you gave at the trial of Ruby?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Has there been anything omitted here that was brought out
in the trial of Ruby when you were a witness?

Mr. WALKER. No; in fact, it has been covered much better. The State
didn’t bring out the fact that we saw mug shots, and the defense kind
of tore me up on that.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, when the defense tore you up, I suppose what they
were trying to do is say you simply couldn’t recall?

Mr. WALKER. They asked me how long I had known Ruby, which I did not
know him, and they were trying to----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you give the explanation as to the mug shots?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. But it is a fact that the mug shots, that your connection
between the mug shots did in fact take place?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir; that is the only real tie, is the fact that we
had the mug shots. I probably wouldn’t have remembered the man coming
to the window if it hadn’t been for the mug shots. I told District
Attorney Wade that before I went in as a witness, but he didn’t follow
it up.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, to wrap it up, you are saying under oath now that
the man at the window and the man in the mug shots and the man in the
courtroom identified as Jack Ruby were one and the same person?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You have already testified that you recall the interview of
you on December 4, by FBI Agents Earle Haley and Robley Madland. At the
time you were interviewed, were you interviewed by those agents alone?

Mr. WALKER. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How did the interview take place?

Mr. WALKER. The two agents, myself, Warren Richey, Johnny Smith, and
there might have been some others, Jimmy Turner was there part of the
time--of course, he introduced us to the FBI men, and I think he had
already talked to him previously.

Mr. HUBERT. All of you were interviewed as a group rather than
individually, is that right?

Mr. WALKER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you shown a copy of the notes relative to what your
statements were?

Mr. WALKER. No; I have seen no notes.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never seen any draft of the documents which have
been identified as Exhibit 5315?

Mr. WALKER. Today is the first time I have ever seen that.

Mr. HUBERT. During the interview, did the FBI agents ask each of you to
speak alone, or was it a composite sort of interview?

Mr. WALKER. It was composite. We spoke as we remembered the situation.
I mean, everybody described the whole thing as it progressed along as
best he could.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what the FBI did by way of segregating the
identification of each of you?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to say?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN L. DANIELS

The testimony of John L. Daniels was taken at 10 a.m., on April 1,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of John L. Daniels.

Mr. DANIELS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Daniels, I have to read some things to you. Mr.
Daniels, my name is Leon D. Hubert, and I am a member of the advisory
staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the
Provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963,
the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure
adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order
and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take the sworn
deposition of you. I state to you now that the general nature of the
Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the
facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you,
Mr. Daniels, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts
you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you
may know about the general inquiry including the parking of the car
that belonged to Mr. Ruby at the parking lot next to you, I think.

Now, Mr. Daniels, I understand that you received a letter from Mr. J.
Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission asking you to appear to