tell how many of those he filled on the 22d.

Representative FORD. Have you ever gone back through your orders for
the 22d?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Just to take a survey?

Mr. TRULY. We have thousands and thousands of accounts, and they run
from A to Z alphabetically in our files. We would have to take--we
would have to go through every invoice in each file, from A to Z, in
order to find any orders he might have filled on that day. And it would
be hard to prove that he filled them on that date because, unless we
found one that had his number on it and was dated November 22d--because
we know he wasn't there after that--but if it was dated November 21st,
he could easily have filled a good number of those orders that morning
of the 22d. But we could not tell whether he filled them the 21st or
the 22d.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, in line with Congressman Ford's questions, was
there ever a clipboard found in your building at all?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. Sometime later there was a clipboard found that
had two or three orders on it.

Mr. BELIN. What were those orders dated?

Mr. TRULY. I don't remember, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where the clipboard was found?

Mr. TRULY. I later learned it was found up on the sixth floor, near the
stairway, behind some cartons. I do not remember just exactly how many
orders were on it, but I think it was only two or three.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who found it?

Mr. TRULY. A boy by the name of Frankie Kaiser.

Mr. BELIN. Is he still one of your employees?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether this was ever identified as having ever
belonged to any particular employee of yours?

Mr. TRULY. Well, he brought the clipboard to Bill Shelley and told him
about it, and he said, "This is an old clipboard I used to use. This is
the one that Oswald was using." It was a kind of homemade affair.

Mr. BELIN. When you say he brought it to Bill Shelley, who are you
referring to?

Mr. TRULY. I am referring to Frankie Kaiser who brought the clipboard
with the orders downstairs and told Bill Shelley that he had found
Oswald's clipboard with some orders on it.

Mr. BELIN. Had those orders ever been filled or not?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. You see, when they fill the orders, they take them
off the clipboard. They may have 25 on the clipboard, and after a while
they will have 15 or 10 or something.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not those orders were ever eventually
filled that were found on the clipboard?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; they were filled.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with the clipboard and the order blanks that
were on there?

Mr. TRULY. I think someone else filled the order blanks and the
clipboard lay around there for a while until it was mentioned. I don't
recall what happened to it. At the time nobody considered it of too
much significance, I suppose--that the boy was just filling orders up
there and he had just thrown his clipboard over. I believe that someone
from a government agency either got the clipboard or looked at it. I
have this thing all mixed up. It hasn't been very long ago, you know,
about the clipboard. I don't know the solution of it. They were trying
to identify this clipboard just a short while ago for someone--the FBI
or the Secret Service, or it could be you, could it?

Mr. BELIN. No, sir.

Mr. TRULY. Just shortly before you.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this question?

Are there any ways in which your orders are posted that show anything
along the lines that Congressman Ford suggested as to who might fill an
order or when an order would be posted? In other words, if you come to
an order and you see that the order is dated maybe November 21st, but
you do not know whether it was filled on November 21st or November 22d,
would your posting system of entries on your ledger or journal in any
way show when it was filled?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. The date that we go by is the date the checker
checks the order, and then he puts the date stamp on it. He puts it
over on the table in a little conveyor belt, and the boys wrap it.
When he separates the packing list and the invoice itself--he puts the
packing list and the label with the order. Then he dates the invoice as
of that date, and it goes upstairs to be matched with the other copies,
and then charged to the customer.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you mentioned earlier that periodically your checkers
get a check to ascertain how many orders were filled by the various
employees. Do you know of any such check made on the morning of
November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I do not recall having made a check in several days
before that. We would usually run a check of errors for a week, and
then we would run a check occasionally of orders filled. And checking
on the errors the various boys made--maybe we have an unusual number
for us of teachers writing in saying that they got the wrong book. So
we try to check and see which one of these boys possibly was making
these errors.

Mr. BELIN. Is it your testimony that you do not recall any check being
made on November 22d, or you are sure there was no check on November
22d?

Mr. TRULY. There was no check that I recall. And I am sure there wasn't.

(At this point, the Chairman left the hearing room.)

Representative FORD. Could you tell us the approximate date that this
individual found the clipboard and brought it to your attention?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Was it a few days after the assassination, or
several weeks?

Mr. TRULY. I think it was just a few days afterward because--now,
we would have to check upstairs. If these orders are not filled and
processed and gone upstairs and matched with the copies in several days
there, then we go looking for the order like the boys missed them.
We have copies in the office, and if they do not come through in a
reasonable time, we think that someone has lost some orders, and we
get to checking them. If we cannot find them, we have to duplicate the
orders.

Representative FORD. In other words, if 2 weeks had passed without the
order being filled according to your records, you would have instituted
a more thorough search to find out where the unfilled order blank was.

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir--less than that, I would say, because we do
not--our customers would probably write to us before then, if they did
not receive it. But the girls on it--usually 3 or 4 days, if those
orders have not cleared, they come to check about them, to see if we
are holding one back because we do not have the stock, or if we have
lost it, the boys have lost it.

(At this point, the Chairman entered the hearing room.)

Representative FORD. Who is the man who brought the clipboard to you?

Mr. TRULY. Bill Shelley called my attention to it. At that time I do
not recall anything being done except maybe one of the boys filling the
orders and just forgetting about that part of it.

Representative FORD. To your best recollection, who gave the clipboard
to Bill Shelley?

Mr. TRULY. Frankie Kaiser.

Representative FORD. Was he an employee of the Texas School Book
Depository?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Do you know generally where Kaiser found the
clipboard?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Can you point it out to us on one of the exhibits?

Mr. BELIN. The diagram of the sixth floor has been marked as Exhibit
No. 483. Perhaps you can mark on Exhibit No. 483 with the letter "C"
where you think the clipboard was found.

I might at this point on the record say for the Commission that
Exhibit 506 purports to be the position of the clipboard when it was
discovered--the clipboard is circled, and the number on the picture,
on Exhibit 506, is numbered 36, and on the Exhibit 483 appears at the
end of the arrow with the number 36 on it, which is near where Mr.
Truly put his "C". And the number 35 on that same exhibit--the number
35 will be shown tomorrow to be the position of the rifle when it was
discovered.

Representative FORD. And 36 is the position of the clipboard?

Mr. BALL. I don't think you can take that as evidence.

Mr. BELIN. This is not evidence. This is just background.

Mr. BALL. This is really an offer of proof on our part. That is the
most you can consider it--because we intend to take the deposition of
Kaiser who found the clipboard.

Representative FORD. Is there someone here, the staff or Mr. Truly, who
knows approximately when the clipboard was found?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. I can give you that date in about one minute.
According to our records, Frankie Kaiser, when interviewed on December
2d, said that on the morning of December 2d he found a clipboard which
he had made and which he had turned over to Lee Harvey Oswald with
orders. And we have a list of the orders also in one of the Commission
documents. It is Document 7, page 381.

But we are going to have to actually take the deposition of Mr. Kaiser,
which we will do when we go to Dallas next week or the week after, or
whenever we get to him.

Representative FORD. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Representative FORD. Back on the record.

Mr. BELIN. Three more pictures, Mr. Truly.

I hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit 505.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 505 for
identification.)

I ask you to state if this appears to be the stairway leading from the
second to the third floor, or can't you tell?

Mr. TRULY. I believe so; yes.

Mr. BELIN. And that is the stairway that you went up two or three steps
before you came down to get Officer Baker?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I note with regard to the floor plan on the second
floor that when you want to get to the lunchroom from the elevator, if
you want to get to the lunchroom from the west elevator you have to
walk in the area through that door marked number 23. Is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. If you want to get there from the east elevator, what do you
do?

Mr. TRULY. Well, there is a side door, a north door, coming into the
lunchroom that they can come through.

Mr. BELIN. Does that north door appear on Exhibit 501?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That appears to be located east of the Coca Cola machine, is
that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, if someone wanted to take an elevator and get off on
the second floor, and go through the back door to get to the lunchroom,
would there be any way for that elevator to leave the second floor
other than for someone to get back on that east elevator and personally
operate it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, the east elevator you have to actually have
an operator on it and it cannot be moved by just pushing a button?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. One other question. Just what are Rolling Readers? Is
Rolling a company or what is it?

Mr. TRULY. Well, if you would look at it you wouldn't know what it
was after you opened the box. But it is a new concept in material for
reading for children in the first grade, kindergarten and so forth.
They are little blocks with words on them that roll out, and then you
turn them over. It is something like--I know way back in my childhood
they would use number blocks and things like that. But it has words and
sentences and things they can put together.

Mr. DULLES. A square like dice?

Mr. TRULY. That's right. It looks like dice, only they are bigger. They
have the theory that these can interest a lot of children because of
the noise they put out here, and they pick them up when they hit the
floor and put them together into sentences and things. Something to
stimulate the interest of children who are not quite as advanced in
their reading.

Mr. BELIN. Are they relatively heavy or light cartons?

Mr. TRULY. They are very light.

Mr. BELIN. The cartons themselves. About how much would a carton of 10
Rolling Readers weigh?

Mr. TRULY. I don't think they would weigh over between five and ten
pounds.

Mr. BELIN. And by 10 Rolling Readers you mean there were 10 sets of the
Rolling Readers in each of these cartons shown on Exhibit 504?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. At this time we offer in evidence exhibits 490 through 506
inclusive.

Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 490 through
506, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Truly, I think I heard you say when you were describing
the first contact that you had with Oswald that you said, "That is the
last time I saw him until November 16th."

Did I hear you say that?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not. If I did, it was a mistake. I saw him on
October 16th, the morning he came to work.

Mr. McCLOY. I put down here that was the last time you had seen him
until November 16th.

Mr. TRULY. For the record, if I said that, that is wrong. I meant
October 16th.

The CHAIRMAN. Which was the next morning?

Mr. TRULY. That was the next morning after he was told to come to work.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall, Mr. Truly, whether you hired any personnel
for work in this particular building, in the School Depository, after
the 15th of October and before the 22d of November?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall hiring anyone else other than Oswald
for that building the same day that I hired Oswald. I believe, if I am
not mistaken, I hired another boy for a temporary job, and put him in
the other warehouse at 1917 North Houston.

Mr. DULLES. At a different warehouse?

Mr. TRULY. At a different warehouse. He was laid off November 15th, I
believe--November 15th, or something like that.

Mr. DULLES. What I was getting at is whether an accomplice could have
gotten in in that way. That is why I was asking the question.

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall. Actually, the end of our fall
rush--if it hadn't existed a week or 2 weeks longer, or if we had not
been using some of our regular boys putting down this plywood, we would
not have had any need for Lee Oswald at that time, which is a tragic
thing for me to think about.

Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Truly, while Oswald was in your employ, did you have
any inquiries made of you by any of the United States agencies, such as
FBI, regarding him?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; nothing ever.

Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald mention to you anything about his trip to Russia
and return from Russia?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; he did not. He just told me that he just recently
was discharged from the Marines with an honorable discharge. And I
suppose that if he had had some background of a few jobs, skipping here
and there, I might have investigated those jobs thoroughly.

Mr. DULLES. He did not tell you about those short-time jobs he had?

Mr. TRULY. No. The thing is I thought he was just discharged from the
service, and we have worked with boys in the past, and they have gone
on and got on their feet and got a better job. And I did not give it a
thought that he was really just not discharged from the Marines.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, you mentioned the fact that you thought Jack
Dougherty was the one operating that west elevator. Is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us a little bit about Jack Dougherty?

Mr. TRULY. Jack Dougherty has been working for us 12 or 14 years.
Until we moved into this building, he has been mostly in our State
Department, the building at 1917 North Houston. He would fill orders
for--that called for many cartons of books on a three-textbook-order
basis to the various schools in Texas. And he seemed to be intelligent
and smart and a hard worker. The main thing is he just worked all the
time.

I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few
times he would get a little bit--maybe do a little something wrong,
and I would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces--not
anything--but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not
be right. [Deletion.] He is a great big husky fellow. I think he is 39
years old. He has never been married. He has no interest in women. He
gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. He has never had any
trouble. He is a good, loyal, hard working employee. He always has been.

Mr. BELIN. Would you consider him of average intelligence?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. I think what is wrong with him mostly is his
emotional makeup. I would say that for the work he is doing, he is of
average intelligence.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to the fifth floor, as I understand it, the
west elevator was not there, but when you started up from the first
floor, you thought it was on the fifth floor.

Mr. TRULY. No. When I came down from the second floor--from the seventh
floor with the officer, I thought I saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth
floor, which he would have had plenty of time to move the elevator down
and up and get some stock and come back.

Mr. BELIN. But when you got to the fifth floor that west elevator was
not there?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was it on any floor below the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. I didn't look.

Mr. BELIN. As you were climbing up the floors, you did not see it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And if it wasn't on the fifth floor when you got there, it
could have been on the sixth or seventh, I assume.

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe so, because I think I would have
heard or seen it coming downstairs when I got on the fifth floor
elevator, on the east side.

Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose it was just stopped on the sixth floor when
you got on the fifth floor elevator. Would you have seen it then?

Mr. TRULY. I think so, yes, sir. As we started up from the fifth floor,
you could see the top of it at an angle.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking in that direction as you rode up on the
fifth floor, or were you facing the east?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I don't know which way I was looking. I was only
intent on getting to the seventh floor.

Mr. BELIN. So you cannot say when you passed the sixth floor whether or
not an elevator was there?

Mr. TRULY. I cannot.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to the seventh floor, you got out of the east
elevator. Was the west elevator on the seventh floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Are you sure it was not on the seventh floor?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the west elevator running at any time when you
were riding the elevator from the fifth to the seventh?

Mr. TRULY. I was not aware of it.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions?

Representative FORD. How many employees do you have in the building on
the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. TRULY. I cannot tell you the figures, the total number of the
office and all employees. We had about 15, I think. We had 19-warehouse
and order-filler boys in both warehouses, and there are only four or
five down at the other place. I think we had 15 men working in our
warehouse at Houston and Elm on that day.

Representative FORD. On November 22d.

Mr. DULLES. Would all of them normally have had access to the sixth
floor, or might have gone to the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. Possibly any--possibly so. We have one man that checks. He
hardly fills any orders. And we have one or two that write up freight.
But any of the order-fillers there might be a possibility--there might
be a possibility they might need something off the sixth floor.

Representative FORD. When you noticed the police assembling the
employees after the assassination, what prompted you to think that
Oswald was not among them?

Mr. TRULY. I have asked myself that many times. I cannot give an
answer. Unless it was the fact that I knew he was on the second floor,
I had seen him 10 or 15 minutes, or whatever it was, before that. That
might have brought that boy's name to my mind--because I was looking
over there and he was the only one I missed at that time that I could
think of. Subconsciously it might have been because I saw him on the
second floor and I knew he was in the building.

Representative FORD. Had there been any traits that you had noticed
from the time of his employment that might have made you think then
that there was a connection between the shooting and Oswald?

Mr. TRULY. Not at all. In fact, I was fooled so completely by the sound
of--the direction of the shot, that I did not believe--still did not
believe--maybe I could not force myself to believe, that the shots
came from that building until I learned that they found the gun and
the shells there. So I had no feeling whatever that they did come from
there. I am sure that did not bring Oswald in my mind. But it was just
the fact that they were trying to get people's names.

Mr. DULLES. When you reported that Oswald was missing, do you recall
whether you told the police that he had been on the second floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. You did not?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I just said, "I have a man that is missing. I don't
know whether it means anything, but this is the name."

Representative FORD. Do you know about what time that was that you told
the police?

Mr. TRULY. I could be wrong, but I think it was around 15--between 15
minutes or 20 minutes after the shots, or something. I could be as far
off as 5 minutes or so. I don't know. I did not seem to think it was
very long. We might have spent more time up on the roof and coming
down, and then I might have walked out in the shipping department.
Everybody was running up asking questions. Time could fool me. But I
did not think it was but about 15 or 20 minutes later.

Representative FORD. In your description of Oswald to Captain Fritz,
did you describe the kind of clothes that Oswald had on that day?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. No, sir; I just told him his name and
where he lived and his telephone number and his age, as 23, and I said
5 feet, 9, about 150 pounds, light brown hair--whatever I picked up off
the description there. I did not try to depend on my memory to describe
him. I just put down what was on this application blank. That's the
reason I called Mr. Aiken, because I did not want to mislead anybody
as to a description. I might call a man brown-haired, and he might be
blonde.

Mr. DULLES. When you and the officer saw Oswald in the luncheon room,
did any words pass between you?

Mr. TRULY. No. The officer said something to the boy.

Mr. DULLES. I mean between you and Oswald.

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. Oswald never said a word. Not to me.

Mr. DULLES. What was he doing?

Mr. TRULY. He was just standing there.

Mr. DULLES. Did he have a coke?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. No drink?

Mr. TRULY. No drink at all. Just standing there.

Mr. DULLES. Anything about his appearance that was startling or unusual?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. No, sir; I didn't see him panting like he had been
running or anything.

Mr. DULLES. Didn't appear to be doing anything special, moving in any
direction?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. He was standing still facing the doorway to the
lunchroom. The officer was there with a gun pointed at him, around
towards his middle, almost touching.

Mr. DULLES. How long before the President's actual visit on the 22d of
November did you know of the visit and of the route that he was going
to take.

Mr. TRULY. Well, I think they said it was announced 72 hours before the
assassination that he would take that route.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any discussion, as far as you know, among your
employees, of the fact that the procession would go near the School
Depository?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; not that I know of.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever have any reason to suspect any other
member--any other of your boys of being in any way connected with this
affair?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I never have found anything or any actions to make
me feel that they might be connected with it.

Mr. McCLOY. You never observed Oswald conversing with any strange or
unidentified characters during his employment with you?

Mr. TRULY. Never.

Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald have any visitors as far as you know?

Mr. TRULY. Never knew of a one; no, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did he have the use of a telephone when he was in the
building?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. We have a telephone on the first floor that he was
free to use during his lunch hour for a minute. He was supposed to ask
permission to use the phone. But he could have used the phone.

Mr. DULLES. Pay telephone or office telephone?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; it is a regular office telephone. It is a
pushbutton type.

Mr. McCLOY. Did he strike you as being a frequent user of that
telephone?

Mr. TRULY. I never remember ever seeing him on the telephone.

Mr. DULLES. Would you have any record or be able to find out now
whether he had ever used it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. You did not see him on November 22d with any package or any
bundle?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when we were there on March 20th, did you take
a walk down from the southeast corner window on the sixth floor with
Officer Baker and a Secret Service Agent Howlett--we walked along from
that window at the southeast corner of the sixth floor, walked along
the east wall to the northeast corner of the building, and then across
there around the elevators, and Secret Service Agent Howlett simulated
putting a rifle at the spot where the rifle was found; and then we
took the stairs down to the second floor lunchroom where Officer Baker
encountered Lee Harvey Oswald? You remember us doing that?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How fast were we going--running, trotting, walking or what?

Mr. TRULY. Walking at a brisk walk, and then a little bit faster, I
would say.

Mr. BELIN. You remember what time that was? How long did it take?

Mr. TRULY. It seemed to me like it was a minute and 18 seconds, and a
minute and 15 seconds. We tried it twice. I believe that is about as
near as I remember.

Mr. BELIN. If a person were in that southeast corner window, just
knowing the way the books were laid up there, would that have been the
most practicable route to use to get out of there, to get down the
stairs?

Mr. TRULY. I believe so. I believe it to be.

Mr. McCLOY. In your judgment, you think that is the route that Oswald
took?

Mr. TRULY. I think--he had two possible routes there. One of them, he
could come half way down the east wall and down this way, but he would
have to make one more turn. But if he came all the way down the east
wall to where the rows of books stop, he had a straight run toward the
sixth floor stairs.

Mr. DULLES. You do not think he used any of the elevators at any time
to get from the sixth to the second floor?

Mr. TRULY. You mean after the shooting? No, sir; he just could not,
because those elevators, I saw myself, were both on the fifth floor,
they were both even. And I tried to get one of them, and then when we
ran up to the second floor--it would have been impossible for him to
have come down either one of those elevators after the assassination.
He had to use the stairway as his only way of getting down--since we
did see the elevators in those positions.

Mr. DULLES. He could not have taken it down and then have somebody else
go up to that floor and leave it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe he would have had time for that.

Representative FORD. He couldn't have taken an elevator down and then
sent it up to a higher floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. Yes; he could. I suppose he could put his hand
through the slotted bars and touched one of the upper floors.

Mr. BELIN. On both elevators?

Mr. TRULY. That is just the west one only.

Representative FORD. That was feasible, even though it might be a
little difficult?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. There was no button on the outside that permitted
him to send an elevator up to a higher floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. It would take him quite a little job to get his
hand all through there and press one.

Mr. DULLES. Would he have to break any glass to do it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. The car gate--and then there was an outside gate
slatted--slats about this far apart.

Mr. McCLOY. When you entered the building with the officer behind you,
when you were presumably trying to get to the roof, there had been no
cordon at that time thrown around the building?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. So that Oswald could have slipped out without an officer
having been at the doorway at that point?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think so. There were many officers running down
west of the building. It appears many people thought the shots came
from there because of the echo or what.

Mr. DULLES. Is it your view he went out the front door rather than one
of the back doors?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; it is. From the nature--from the direction he was
walking through the office, and the front stairway, to reach the second
floor--it is my view that he walked down the front stairs and just out
through the crowd there, probably a minute or two before the police had
everything stopped.

Mr. McCLOY. From what you know of these young men who testified before
you today, are they trustworthy?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think they are. They are good men. They have
been with me, most of them, for some time. I have no reason to doubt
their word. I do know that they have been rather, as the expression
goes, shook up about this thing, especially this tall one, Bonnie
Williams. He is pretty superstitious, I would say. For 2 or 3 weeks the
work was not normal, or a month. The boys did not put out their normal
amount of work. Their hearts were not in it. But after that, they have
picked up very well. They are doing their work well.

Mr. BELIN. If we can go off the record for just a moment.

(Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. Back on the record.

Mr. TRULY. I thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, sir. You have helped us a good deal.

We will recess at this time until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 6 p.m. the President's Commission recessed.)

_Wednesday, March 25, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER, MRS. ROBERT A. REID, LUKE MOONEY, EUGENE
BOONE, AND M. N. McDONALD

The President's Commission met at 9:50 a.m. on March 25, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman
Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and
Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin,
assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray,
observer; and Waggoner Carr, attorney general of Texas.

TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER

The CHAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission
will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help
you God?

Mr. BAKER. I do, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. I will read a little short brief
statement to you, Mr. Baker, which will indicate the purpose of our
meeting today.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of M. L. Baker,
Mrs. R. A. Reid, Eugene Boone, Luke Mooney, and M. N. McDonald. Officer
Baker and Mrs. Reid were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book
Depository Building at the time of the assassination.

Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney assisted in the search of the sixth
floor of the Texas School Depository Building shortly after the
assassination and Officer McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at the
Texas theater.

I read this to you just so you will know the general nature of the
inquiry we are making today and we will make of you.

Mr. Belin will conduct the examination.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, would you state your legal name, please for
the Commission?

Mr. BAKER. Marrion L. Baker.

Mr. BELIN. You are known as M. L. Baker?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. BAKER. With Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. BAKER. Almost 10 years.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Officer Baker?

Mr. BAKER. Thirty-three.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?

Mr. BAKER. In a little town called Blum, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Blum, Tex.?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I think I went to about the sixth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go?

Mr. BAKER. We moved to Dallas and I continued schooling at the Roger Q.
Mills School, elementary, went to junior high school, I believe it was
called Storey, and then I finished high school in Adamson High School.

Mr. BELIN. In Dallas?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you graduated from high school?

Mr. BAKER. I think I got married.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, at this time I must go to the court, we have
a session of the court today hearing arguments and Mr. Dulles, you
are going to be here through the morning, so if you will conduct the
meeting from this time on.

Excuse me, gentlemen.

(At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. After you got married, sir, what did you do. I mean in the
way of vocation?

Mr. BAKER. I took up a job as a sheetmetal man at the Continental Tin
Co.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for Continental?

Mr. BAKER. Approximately 3 months.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I quit this job and went to the Ford Motor Co.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do at Ford?

Mr. BAKER. Well, at that time I stayed there approximately 11 months
and they laid me off and I went to the, I believe they call it Chance
Vought at that time, aircraft.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do at Ford, sir?

Mr. BAKER. I was a glass installer, I believe that is what you would
call it.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

When you went to this aircraft factory what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. I was a material clerk.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for them?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't understand?

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for the aircraft company?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed like somewhere around a year and a half.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. At that time it was uncertain out there whether you would
stay there or not, they were laying off a few of the men and I went
with the neighbor's trailer company which was located in Oak Cliff
there.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?

Mr. BAKER. I was, I guess you would call it a mechanic. I did a little
bit of everything there, I did all the road work, and did all the
delivering at that time.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay with them?

Mr. BAKER. A little over 3 years.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. Then I became, I went with the city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. With the police department?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take a course of instruction for the police
department?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I went to the Dallas Police Academy School out
there.

Mr. BELIN. How long was this schooling period, approximately?

Mr. BAKER. Four months.

Mr. BELIN. After you were graduated from the Dallas Police Academy,
did you right away become a motorcycle policeman or were you first a
patrolman or what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; at first I was a patrolman and I spent some 23
months in radio patrol division. And then I volunteered solo division.

Mr. BELIN. When you were in this radio car, was this a patrol car where
two men would be----

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And have you been a motorcycle policeman then, say, for the
last 7 or 8 years?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is pretty close to it.

(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. By the way, you use the word solo; generally do people in
police cars ride in pairs during the daytime or solos or what?

Mr. BAKER. If you are talking about the squad cars at the time that I
worked in the radio patrol division, most of them were two-men squads.

Mr. BELIN. Were there some one-man squads, too?

Mr. BAKER. Very few.

Mr. BELIN. What about today, do you know what the situation is?

Mr. BAKER. They still have, say, very few two-men squads and a lot of
one-man squads now.

Mr. BELIN. They have a lot of one-man squads now?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Is that because of a shortage of men for the jobs to cover?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Not because of the procedures?

Mr. BAKER. Now, at night they try to ride them two men.

Mr. BELIN. In the daytime what is the situation now?

Mr. BAKER. Usually the downtown squads which I work are two men, and
the outlying squads are one man.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Coming down to November 22, 1963, what was your occupation on that day?

Mr. BAKER. I was assigned to ride a motorcycle.

Mr. BELIN. And where were you assigned to ride the motorcycle?

Mr. BAKER. At this particular day in the office up there before we went
out, I was, my partner and I, we received instructions to ride right
beside the President's car.

Mr. BELIN. About when was this that you received these instructions?

Mr. BAKER. Let's see, I believe we went to work early that day,
somewhere around 8 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. And from whom did you receive your original instructions to
ride by the side of the President's car?

Mr. BAKER. Our sergeant is the one who gave us the instructions. This
is all made up in the captain's office, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. DULLES. Captain Curry?

Mr. BAKER. Chief Curry; our captain is Captain Lawrence.

Mr. BELIN. Were these instructions ever changed?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. When we got to the airport, our sergeant
instructed me that there wouldn't be anybody riding beside the
President's car.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you why or why not?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. We had several occasions where we were assigned
there and we were moved by request.

Mr. BELIN. On that day, you mean?

Mr. BAKER. Well, that day and several other occasions when I have
escorted them.

Mr. BELIN. On that day when did you ride or where were you supposed to
ride after this assignment was changed?

Mr. BAKER. They just--the sergeant told us just to fall in beyond it, I
believe he called it the press, behind the car.

Mr. BELIN. Beyond the press?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you this after the President's plane arrived at
the airport or was it before?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed like it was after he arrived out there.

Mr. BELIN. Had you already seen him get out of the plane?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was it before the motorcade left that you
were advised of this, was it just before or 5 or 10 minutes before, or
what?

Mr. BAKER. It was 5 or 10 minutes before.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then the motorcade left and you rode along on a motorcycle in the
motorcade?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was it a two-wheeler or a three-wheeler?

Mr. BAKER. It was a two-wheeler.

Mr. BELIN. You rode with the motorcade as it traveled through downtown
Dallas?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And eventually what is the fact as to whether or not the
motorcade got to Main Street?

Mr. BAKER. You say how fast?

Mr. BELIN. No; did the motorcade get to Main Street in Dallas, was it
going down Main Street at anytime?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I wonder if you would pick up your actions with the motorcade as it
went down Main Street commencing at, say, Main and Record Streets.

Mr. BAKER. Well, it was the usual escort. We were traveling about
somewhere around 5 to 10 miles an hour.

Mr. DULLES. There is a map right behind you.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Back on the record again.

Mr. DULLES. Would you state exactly where you were riding? We know a
good deal about this, the cars the way they were paced. There was a
car right behind the President's car that followed it, I think 6 or 7
feet right behind the President's car.

Mr. BAKER. That was the Secret Service car.

Mr. DULLES. That is right. Were you in that gap between the two cars or
what?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I was, it seemed to me like, there was this car.

Mr. DULLES. When you say "this car" what do you mean?

Mr. BAKER. That Secret Service car.

Mr. DULLES. The Secret Service car right behind the President?

Mr. BAKER. And there was one more car in there.

Mr. DULLES. Behind that?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. That was the Vice President's car, wasn't it?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And then?

Mr. BAKER. There were four press cars carrying the press and I was
right at the side of that last one.

Representative BOGGS. The last press car?

Mr. DULLES. The last press car?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. So you were roughly how far behind the President's car at
this stage?

Mr. BAKER. Sometimes we got, at this stage we were possibly a half
block.

Mr. DULLES. A half block?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; as I say as I turned the corner the front of it
was turning the corner at Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. You mean as you were turning right from Main on to Houston
Street heading north onto Houston, the President's car had already
turned to the left off Houston heading down that entrance to the
expressway, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I believe--pardon me, Mr. Dulles, does that answer your question?

Mr. DULLES. That answers my question. I wanted to see where he was.

Mr. BELIN. You said you were going down Main Street at around Record at
from 5 to 10 miles an hour?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Will you take up your trip from there, please?

Mr. BAKER. As we approached the corner there of Main and Houston we
were making a right turn, and as I came out behind that building there,
which is the county courthouse, the sheriff building, well, there was a
strong wind hit me and I almost lost my balance.

Mr. BELIN. How fast would you estimate the speed of your motorcycle as
you turned the corner, if you know?

Mr. BAKER. I would say--it wasn't very fast. I almost lost balance, we
were just creeping along real slowly.

Mr. DULLES. That is turning from Main into Houston?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You turned--do you have any actual speed estimate as you
turned that corner at all or just you would say very slow?

Mr. BAKER. I would say from around 5 to 6 or 7 miles an hour, because
you can't hardly travel under that and you know keep your balance.

Mr. BELIN. From what direction was the wind coming when it hit you?

Mr. BAKER. Due north.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, tell us what happened after you turned on to Houston Street?

Mr. BAKER. As I got myself straightened up there, I guess it took me
some 20, 30 feet, something like that, and it was about that time that
I heard these shots come out.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Could you just tell us what you heard and what you saw and what you
did?

Mr. BAKER. As I got, like I say as I got straightened up there, I was,
I don't know when these shots started coming off, I just--it seemed
to me like they were high, and I just happened to look right straight
up----

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you would just tell us on that chart and I will
try to follow with the record where you were at this time, you were
coming down Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, if you can--I plan to get that actual chart in a
minute. If we could----

Mr. DULLES. I want to see where he was vis-a-vis the building on the
chart there.

Mr. BAKER. This is Main Street and this is Houston. This is the corner
that I am speaking of; I made the right turn here. The motorcade and
all, as I was here turning the front car was turning up here, and as I
got somewhere about right here----

Mr. DULLES. That is halfway down the first block.

Mr. BELIN. No, sir; can I interrupt you for a minute?

Mr. DULLES. Certainly.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when we were in Dallas on March 20, Friday,
you walked over with me and showed me about the point you thought your
motorcycle was when you heard the first shot, do you remember doing
that?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then we paced this off measuring it from a distance
which could be described as the north curbline of Main Street as
extended?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that would be this one right across here.

Mr. BELIN. And we paced it off as to where you thought your motorcycle
was when you heard the first shot and do you remember offhand about
where you said this was as to what distance it was, north of the north
curbline of Main Street?

Mr. BAKER. We approximated it was 60 to 80 feet there, north of the
north curbline of Main on Houston.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. BELIN. Does that answer your question?

Mr. DULLES. That answers my question entirely.

Mr. BELIN. In any event you heard the first shot, or when you heard
this noise did you believe it was a shot or did you believe it was
something else?

Mr. BAKER. It hit me all at once that it was a rifle shot because I had
just got back from deer hunting and I had heard them pop over there for
about a week.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of a weapon did it sound like it was coming from?

Mr. BAKER. It sounded to me like it was a high-powered rifle.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise,
what did you do and what did you see?

Mr. BAKER. Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of
looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either
right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it.

Mr. BELIN. What would the building right in front of you be?

Mr. BAKER. It would be this Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the building located on what corner of Houston
and Elm?

Mr. BAKER. That would be the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And you thought it was either from that building
or the building located where?

Mr. BAKER. On the northeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you
heard the first noise?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to
fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and
start flying around.

Mr. BELIN. From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons
came from?

Mr. BAKER. I wasn't sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the
building right on the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see or do?

Mr. BAKER. Well, I immediately revved that motorcycle up and was going
up there to see if I could help anybody or see what was going on
because I couldn't see around this bend.

Mr. BELIN. Well, between the time you revved up the motorcycle had you
heard any more shots?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I heard--now before I revved up this motorcycle, I
heard the, you know, the two extra shots, the three shots.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any time estimate as to the spacing of any of
these shots?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed to me like they just went bang, bang, bang; they
were pretty well even to me.

Mr. BELIN. They were pretty well even.

Anything else between the time of the first shot and the time of the
last shot that you did up to the time or saw----

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; except I was looking up and I could tell it was
high and I was looking up there and I saw those pigeons flying around
there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything in either of those two buildings
either on the northeast or northwest corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking at any of those windows?

Mr. BAKER. I kind of glanced over them, but I couldn't see anything.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. BAKER. Three.

Mr. BELIN. All right. After the third shot, then, what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. Well, I revved that motorcycle up and I went down to the
corner which would be approximately 180 to 200 feet from the point
where we had first stated, you know, that we heard the shots.

Mr. BELIN. What distance did you state? What we did on Friday
afternoon, we paced off from the point you thought you heard the first
shot to the point at which you parked the motorcycle, and this paced
off to how much?

Mr. BAKER. From 180 to 200 feet.

Mr. BELIN. That is where you parked the motorcycle?

Mr. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I wonder if we could go on this plat, Officer Baker, and first if you
could put on here with this pen, and I have turned it upside down.

With Exhibit 361, show us the spot at which you stopped your motorcycle
approximately and put a "B" on it, if you would.

Mr. BAKER. Somewhere at this position here, which is approximately 10
feet from this signal light here on the northwest corner of Elm and
Houston.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You have put a dot on Exhibit 361 with the line going to "B" and the
dot represents that signal light, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You, on Friday, March 20, parked your motorcycle where you
thought it was parked on November 22 and then we paced off the distance
from the nearest point of the motorcycle to the stop light and it was
10 feet, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, I show you Exhibit 478 and ask you if you will, on this exhibit
put an arrow with the letter "B" to this stoplight.

Mr. BAKER. Talking about this one here?

Mr. BELIN. The stoplight from which we measured the distance to the
motorcycle. The arrow with the letter "B" points to the stoplight, is
that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And you stopped your motorcycle 10 feet to the east of that
stoplight, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. We then paced off the distance as to approximately how far
it was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway of the
School Book Depository Building, do you remember doing that, on March
20?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And it appears on Exhibit 477 that that doorway is recessed,
is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how far that was from the place your
motorcycle was parked to the doorway?

Mr. BAKER. Approximately 45 feet.

Mr. BELIN. This same stoplight appears as you look at Exhibit 477 to
the left of the entranceway to the building, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. After you parked your motorcycle, did you notice anything
that was going on in the area?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. As I parked here----

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing on Exhibit 361 to the place that you have
marked with "B."

Mr. BAKER. And I was looking westward which would be in this direction.

Mr. BELIN. By that, you are pointing down the entrance to the freeway
and kind of what I will call the peninsula of the park there?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Toward the triple underpass.

Representative BOGGS. Where is the underpass?

Mr. BAKER. The underpass is down here. This is really Elm Street, and
this would be Main and Commerce and they all come together here, and
there is a triple overpass.

Representative BOGGS. Right.

Mr. BAKER. At this point, I looked down here as I was parking my
motorcycle and these people on this ground here, on the sidewalk, there
were several of them falling, and they were rolling around down there,
and all these people were rushing back, a lot of them were grabbing
their children, and I noticed one, I didn't know who he was, but there
was a man ran out into the crowd and back.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything else?

Mr. BAKER. Except there was a woman standing--well, all these people
were running, and there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that
man, they have shot that man."

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, you are on Exhibit 361, and you are pointing to people along the
area or bordering the entrance to that expressway and that bit of land
lying to the west and north, as to where you describe these people, is
that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Would you mark where the overpass would be, right at the
end of those lines, just so we get oriented on it.

Mr. BELIN. I am trying to see down here.

Mr. DULLES. I just wanted to get a general idea.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 361, sir, it wouldn't show but it basically would
be off in this direction coming down this way. The entrance to the
freeway would go down here and the overpass would roughly be down here.

Mr. DULLES. As far as that?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir; I think Mr. Redlich is going to get a picture that
will better describe it.

Mr. DULLES. All right.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Is there anything else you saw there, Officer Baker, before you ran to
the building?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not at that time.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do after surveying the situation?

Mr. BAKER. I had it in mind that the shots came from the top of this
building here.

Mr. BELIN. By this building, you are referring to what?

Mr. BAKER. The Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. Go on.

Representative BOGGS. You were parked right in front of the Building?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; ran right straight to it.

Representative BOGGS. Right.

Let me ask you a question. How far away, approximately, were these
people who were running and falling and so forth from the entrance to
the Building?

Mr. BAKER. Well, now, let me say this. From this position here.

Mr. BELIN. That is position "B" on Exhibit 361?

Mr. BAKER. There were people running all over this here.

Mr. BELIN. And you are pointing to the street and the parkway all in
front of the School Building?

Mr. BAKER. You see, it looked to me like there were maybe 500 or 600
people in this area here.

Representative BOGGS. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. As those shots rang out, why they started running, you know,
every direction, just trying to get back out of the way.

Mr. DULLES. For the record, by this area right here, you have that
little peninsula between the Elm Street extension and the Building?

Mr. BAKER. That is right. This little street runs down in front of the
building down here to the property of the railroad tracks and this is
all a parkway.

Mr. DULLES. Yes. I just wanted to get it for the record.

Mr. BELIN. You then ran into the Building, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the
Building?

Mr. BAKER. As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like
there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And then there are some inner doors and another door you
have to go through, a swinging door type.

As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I
asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and
this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I
am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we
immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into
the swinging door.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, during the course of running into the swinging door, did you bump
into the back of Mr. Truly?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. BAKER. We finally backed up and got through that little swinging
door there and we kind of all ran, not real fast but, you know, a good
trot, to the back of the Building, I was following him.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. We went to the northwest corner, we was kind of on the, I
would say, the southeast corner of the Building there where we entered
it, and we went across it to the northwest corner which is in the rear,
back there.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And he was trying to get that service elevator down there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you see Mr. Truly do?

Mr. BAKER. He ran over there and pushed the button to get it down.

Mr. BELIN. Did the elevator come down after he pushed the button?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; it didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did he do?

Mr. BAKER. He hollered for it, said, "Bring that elevator down here."

Mr. BELIN. How many times did he holler, to the best of your
recollection?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed like he did it twice.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did he do?

Mr. BAKER. I said let's take the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. He said, "Okay" and so he immediately turned around, which
the stairs is just to the, would be to the, well, the west of this
elevator.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And we went up them.

Mr. BELIN. You went up the stairs then?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you started up the stairs what was your intention at
that time?

Mr. BAKER. My intention was to go all the way to the top where I
thought the shots had come from, to see if I could find something
there, you know, to indicate that.

Mr. BELIN. And did you go all the way up to the top of the stairs right
away?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; we didn't.

Mr. BELIN. What happened?

Mr. BAKER. As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead
of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms,
and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened
to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I
saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.

Mr. DULLES. Where was he coming from, do you know?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from
me.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. BAKER. I ran on over there----

Representative BOGGS. You mean where he was?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to
me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another
door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there
and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I
could see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in
the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. BAKER. I hollered at him at that time and said, "Come here." He
turned and walked right straight back to me.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you at the time you hollered?

Mr. BAKER. I was standing in the hallway between this door and the
second door, right at the edge of the second door.

Mr. BELIN. He walked back toward you then?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 497
which appears to be a diagram of the second floor of the School Book
Depository, and you will notice on this diagram there are circles with
arrows. I want you to state, if you will, what number or the arrow
approximates the point at which you were standing when you told him to
"Come here". Is there a number on there at all or not?

Mr. BAKER. This 24 would be the position where I was standing.

Mr. BELIN. The arrow which is represented by No. 24, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497. When you first saw him in which direction
was he walking?

Mr. BAKER. He was walking east.

Mr. BELIN. Was--his back was away from you, or not, as you first saw
him?

Mr. BAKER. As I first caught that glimpse of him, or as I saw him,
really saw him?

Mr. BELIN. As you really saw him.

Mr. BAKER. He was walking away from me with his back toward me.

Mr. DULLES. Can I suggest if you will do this, put on there where the
officer was and where Lee Oswald was, or the man who turned out to be
Lee Oswald, and which direction he was walking in. I think that is
quite important.

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. We are going to get to that with one more
question, if I can, sir. When you saw him, he then turned around, is
that correct, and then walked back toward you?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was he carrying anything in his hands?

Mr. BAKER. He had nothing at that time.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Were you carrying anything in either of your
hands?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BELIN. What were you carrying?

Mr. BAKER. I had my revolver out.

Mr. BELIN. When did you take your revolver out?

Mr. BAKER. As I was starting up the stairway.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, turning to Exhibit 497, if you would
approximate on Exhibit 497 with a pen the point at which you saw this
man in the lunch room when you told him to turn around.

Mr. DULLES. Could we get first where he first saw him.

Representative BOGGS. You have that already.

Mr. DULLES. I don't think you have it on the chart where he was.

Mr. BELIN. This is when he first saw him after he got in the room, sir.
If I can go off the record.

Mr. DULLES. What I wanted to get is where he first saw him as he was
standing down here, as he was going up the stairs and stopped and then
in what direction he was--he seemed to be moving at that time before he
saw.

Mr. BELIN. Just answer the question, if you will. Where were you when
you first caught a glimpse of this man?

Mr. BAKER. I was just coming up these stairs just around this corner
right here.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You were coming up the stairs at the point on
Exhibit 497 where there are the letters "DN" marking down.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And you saw something move through a door which is marked as
what number on Exhibit 497?

Mr. DULLES. Where was he when you first saw him?

Mr. BAKER. At this doorway right here, this 23.

Mr. BELIN. At 23.

Representative BOGGS. May I ask a couple of questions because I have to
go?

Mr. BELIN. Surely.

Representative BOGGS. Were you suspicious of this man?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I wasn't.

Representative BOGGS. And he came up to you, did he say anything to you?

Mr. BAKER. Let me start over. I assumed that I was suspicious of
everybody because I had my pistol out.

Representative BOGGS. Right.

Mr. BAKER. And as soon as I saw him, I caught a glimpse of him and I
ran over there and opened that door and hollered at him.

Representative BOGGS. Right.

Mr. DULLES. He had not seen you up to that point probably?

Mr. BAKER. I don't know whether he had or not.

Representative BOGGS. He came up to you?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; and when I hollered at him he turned around and
walked back to me.

Representative BOGGS. Right close to you?

Mr. BAKER. And we were right here at this position 24, right here in
this doorway.

Representative BOGGS. Right. What did you say to him?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't get anything out of him. Mr. Truly had come up to
my side here, and I turned to Mr. Truly and I says, "Do you know this
man, does he work here?" And he said yes, and I turned immediately and
went on out up the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. Then you continued up the stairway?

Representative BOGGS. Let me ask one other question. You later, when
you recognized this man as Lee Oswald, is that right, saw pictures of
him?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. I had occasion to see him in the homicide office
later that evening after we got through with Parkland Hospital and then
Love Field and we went back to the City Hall and I went up there and
made this affidavit.

Representative BOGGS. After he had been arrested?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Could you tell us anything more about his appearance, what
he was doing, get an impression of the man at all? Did he seem to be
hurrying, anything of that kind?

Mr. BAKER. Evidently he was hurrying because at this point here, I was
running, and I ran on over here to this door.

Mr. BELIN. What door number on that?

Mr. BAKER. This would be 23.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And at that position there he was already down here some 20
feet away from me.

Representative BOGGS. When you saw him, was he out of breath, did he
appear to have been running or what?

Mr. BAKER. It didn't appear that to me. He appeared normal you know.

Representative BOGGS. Was he calm and collected?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. He never did say a word or nothing. In fact, he
didn't change his expression one bit.

Mr. BELIN. Did he flinch in anyway when you put the gun up in his face?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. There is no testimony that he put the gun up in his face.

Mr. BAKER. I had my gun talking to him like this.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How close was your gun to him if it wasn't the face whatever
part of the body it was?

Mr. BAKER. About as far from me to you.

Mr. BELIN. That would be about how far?

Mr. BAKER. Approximately 3 feet.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice, did he say anything or was there any
expression after Mr. Truly said he worked here?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I never did look back toward him. After he
says, "Yes, he works here," I turned immediately and run on up, I
halfway turned then when I was talking to Mr. Truly.

Representative BOGGS. That question about time I would like to
establish.

How long would you say it was from the time that you first heard the
shots until that episode occurred?

Mr. BAKER. We went back and made two trial runs on that, and----

Mr. BELIN. Was that on Friday, March 20?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And the first run we made it was a minute and 30 seconds,
and----

Mr. DULLES. Will you say from what time to what time, from the last
shot?

Mr. BAKER. From the last shot.

Mr. BELIN. The first shot.

Mr. DULLES. The first shot?

Mr. BAKER. The first shot.

We simulated the shots and by the time we got there, we did everything
that I did that day, and this would be the minimum, because I am sure
that I, you know, it took me a little longer.

Mr. DULLES. I want to get clear in my mind and for the record, it
started at the first shot and when did it terminate, when you saw
Oswald?

Mr. BAKER. When we saw Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. When you saw Oswald?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And that time is how much?

Mr. BAKER. The first run would be a minute and 30 seconds, and then we
did it over, and we did it in a minute and 15 seconds.

(At this point, Representative Boggs left the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. Were we walking or running when we did this?

Mr. BAKER. The first time we did it a little bit slower, and the second
time we hurried it up a little bit.

Mr. BELIN. Were we running or walking, when we moved, did we run or
walk?

Mr. BAKER. From the time I got off the motorcycle we walked the first
time and then we kind of run the second time from the motorcycle on
into the building.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When we got inside the building did we run or
trot or walk?

Mr. BAKER. Well, we did it at kind of a trot, I would say, it wasn't a
real fast run, an open run. It was more of a trot, kind of.

Mr. BELIN. You mentioned the relationship between what we did on March
20 and what actually occurred on November 22. Would you estimate that
what we did on March 20 was the maximum or the minimum as for the time
you took?

Mr. BAKER. I would say it would be the minimum.

Mr. BELIN. For instance, on March 20 did we do anything about trying to
get through any people on the front steps of the building at all? Did
we slow down at all for that?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did we slow down at all on March 20 for the time it took you
to look over the scene as to what was happening in the area down Elm
Street and the Parkway?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Later did we go to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. BELIN. With the stopwatch?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did we make any or do any stopwatch tests about any route
from the southeast corner of the sixth floor down to the lunchroom?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we made two test runs.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you remember what the route was?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we started on the sixth floor on the east side of
the building.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. We walked down the east wall.

Mr. BELIN. We started at that particular corner?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we started in the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. All right. We walked down the east wall, you say?

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then where did we go?

Mr. BAKER. To the north wall and then we walked down the north wall to
the west side of where the stairs was.

Mr. BELIN. All right, we walked from the southeast corner to the
northeast corner?

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Then along the northeast corner, around the elevators, do
you remember who was with us when we did this?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. There was, it seems to me like his name was
John--anyway, he was a Secret Service man.

Mr. BELIN. John Howlett.

Mr. BAKER. John Howlett. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did Mr. Howlett simulate anyone putting a gun in any
particular place?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did we do when we got to the--where did he do
that, do you remember?

Mr. BAKER. That would be as we approached the stairway, there were some
cases of books on the left-hand side there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And Secret Service Agent Howlett went over to
these books and leaned over as if he were putting a rifle there?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did he do?

Mr. BAKER. Then we continued on down the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. To the lunchroom?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long that took?

Mr. BAKER. The first run with normal walking took us a minute and 18
seconds.

Mr. BELIN. What about the second time?

Mr. BAKER. And the second time we did it at a fast walk which took us a
minute and 14 seconds.

Mr. BELIN. You saw the stopwatch on all of these timing occasions when
it was started and when it was stopped, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I want to go back to the sixth floor a minute with Mr.
Dulles' questions.

Mr. DULLES. Can we go off the record here one moment?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. On the record.

Officer Baker, when you related your story earlier you said that as you
ran back on the first floor you first ran to the elevator shaft, is
that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And you stopped at the east or the west elevator door?

Mr. BAKER. That would be the west.

Mr. BELIN. All right. This was on the first floor, and did you look up
the elevator shaft at that time?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; at that time I did.

Mr. BELIN. This was while Mr. Truly was calling for the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any kind of a gate between you and the elevator
shaft?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. BELIN. Wood or metal, do you remember?

Mr. BAKER. It is wood.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see when you looked up the elevator shaft?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I thought there was just one elevator there,
you know, one big freight elevator, and to me they looked like they
were up there, I didn't know how many floors in that building but you
could see them up there, it looked like just at that time, I thought it
was just one, when I looked up there, and it looked to me anywhere from
three to four floors up.

Mr. BELIN. Was either elevator moving at the time or--pardon me, was
there any elevator moving at the time you saw and looked up the shaft?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any elevator moving?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly pushed the button, I believe you said.

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When he pushed the button did any elevator start moving?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you looked up the elevator shaft did it appear as if
there was one elevator covering the complete shaft or did it appear
there was one elevator that you saw covering half of the shaft?

Mr. BAKER. Like I say, I thought it was one elevator there and it was
covering the whole deal up there so to me it appeared to be one.

Mr. BELIN. It didn't appear to be two elevators on different floors?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you got up to floor number two at the time
and you did that with the stairs.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you got up there was there any elevator on floor
number two that you can remember, if you can remember? Maybe you cannot
remember, I don't know.

Mr. BAKER. Evidently--now, I didn't look, evidently it wasn't because
it seemed to me like the next floor up Mr. Truly said let's take the
elevator.

Mr. BELIN. At some higher floor after that?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, if we can go off the record for a moment here.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, first of all, handing you what the court
reporter has marked as Exhibit 498, I would like you to state if you
know whether or not this appears to be the door leading from the second
floor hallway into the vestibule going into the lunchroom.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. BELIN. Is this the door through which you glanced as you came
around the stairs coming up from the first floor?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see that caused you to turn away from going up
to the third floor?

Mr. BAKER. As I came out of that stairway running, Mr. Truly had
already gone on around, see, and I don't know, as I come around----

Mr. DULLES. Gone on around and up?

Mr. BAKER. He had already started around the bend to come to the next
elevation going up, I was coming out this one on the second floor, and
I don't know, I was kind of sweeping this area as I come up, I was
looking from right to left and as I got to this door here I caught a
glimpse of this man, just, you know, a sudden glimpse, that is all it
was now, and it looked to me like he was going away from me.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. I ran on up here and opened this door and when I got this
door opened I could see him walking on down.

Mr. DULLES. Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?

Mr. BAKER. I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not.
All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door
might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing by "this door" to the door on Exhibit 498?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You mean you might have seen him as he was opening and
going through the door almost?

Mr. BAKER. Well, to me it was the back of it. Now, through this window
you can't see too much but I just caught a glimpse of him through this
window going away from me and as I ran to this door and opened it, and
looked on down in the lunchroom he was on down there about 20 feet so
he was moving about as fast as I was.

Mr. DULLES. How far were you as you left the stairwell, the stairway----

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. From that door through which you eventually went through
and then saw Oswald?

Mr. BAKER. I would say that was approximately 15, 20 feet, something
like that.

Mr. BELIN. All right. On Exhibit 499 is this a picture of the lunchroom?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what direction the camera is pointing to take
this picture?

Mr. BAKER. It would be pointed eastward.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I see a coke machine off on the left. When you
saw Oswald after you got to this doorway inside the lunchroom, had he
gone as far as the coke machine?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the
room there. All I was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be
approximately 20 feet down there from me.

Mr. BELIN. As you got to the doorway which on Exhibit 497 is marked as
number, what number is that, you are referring to this number 24 here?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, with relation to Exhibit 497 perhaps you can try to
trace your route as you came out from the stairway, as to the route you
took and the point you were when you first caught a glimpse of some
movement through that window or door?

Mr. BAKER. At the upper portion of this stairway leading to the second
floor, I was just stepping out on to the second floor when I caught
this glimpse of this man through this doorway.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to put a spot there, with the letter "B" at the
point you believe you were when you were looking through that door? You
put the letter "B" on Exhibit 497 when you first saw the movement.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then you, from that point, could you kind of trace your
route to the----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question before you ask this question, and
this is a bit of a leading question, and think carefully.

If Oswald had been coming down the stairs and going into the lunchroom
would he have been following the course insofar as you saw a course,
that he--that you saw him follow?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. The reason I say that, this hallway to the
right----

Mr. BELIN. By the right you mean the hallway that goes to the--this
is----

Mr. BAKER. This is a hallway right here.

Mr. BELIN. It is a hallway that has the number 27 on it?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; from what I understand these are offices in there.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And he had no business in there and the lunchroom would be
the only place that he would be going, and there is a door out here
that you can get out and to the other part of the building.

Mr. BELIN. I think Mr. Dulles' question relates to whether or not any
person would have taken a stairway or elevator to have gotten to that
point, is that correct?

Mr. DULLES. Yes; that is correct. I am clear as you come up the stairs
you take a certain course you would go into the lunchroom.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I am not quite clear as to where you would end up on the
second floor as you come down the stairs, is it the same point?

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, if you will look on Exhibit 497, the stairway
appears to be the same stairway. You see the letter, the arrow, 21,
points to the stairway going up to the third floor which, of course,
would be the same stairway going down from the third floor and on the
building.

Mr. DULLES. You would cross if you were going up and down, you would
cross right there at the same point?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And if a man were going up the stairs and then going to the
lunchroom and then coming down the stairs and going to the lunchroom,
he would be approximately following the same course from the time
he got off the stairs and went into that room before you get to the
lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, you had just marked on Exhibit 497 point
"B" where you thought you were at about the time you caught a glimpse
of something, either through a door or through the window in the door
marked 23, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Could you trace your route from point "B" to the doorway 23,
if you would, sir.

Mr. BAKER. I ran right straight across here and through this doorway
and this is approximately where, I would say 23 here, is approximately
where I looked through this lunchroom and saw a man on down here.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I am going to put an arrow at that point on
Exhibit 497, and this arrow in pen, I am going to put a "B-1" and at
that arrow which is just to the left of the circle with the number 24
in it you say you then looked through the doorway and saw a man in the
lunchroom, right?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; walking away from me.

Mr. BELIN. Walking away from you. And then where did you move from
point "B-1"?

Mr. BAKER. I moved on to this position 24 right here in this doorway.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I am going to put--you have put an "X" there,
and I am going to put that on Exhibit 497 as an arrow pointing to it,
with "B-2". Is this where you stood when you called to the man to come
back to you?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you move from that time until the man came up to you?

Mr. BAKER. As I called, I remember moving forward a little bit and
meeting him right here in this doorway.

Mr. BELIN. As you called you say you remembered moving forward and
meeting him right in the doorway which would be marked with the arrow
with number 24 on it on Exhibit 497, is that right?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. After you got there, did you move until the man came up to
you?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came
up to you?

Mr. BAKER. At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it
seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of
white-looking shirt.

Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in
there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 150,
would this appear to be anything that you have ever seen before?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I believe that is the shirt that he had on when he
came--I wouldn't be sure of that. It seemed to me like that other shirt
was a little bit darker than that whenever I saw him in the homicide
office there.

Mr. BELIN. What about when you saw him in the School Book Depository
Building, does this look familiar as anything he was wearing, if you
know?

Mr. BAKER. I couldn't say whether that was--it seemed to me it was a
light-colored brown but I couldn't say it was that or not.

Mr. DULLES. Lighter brown did you say, I am just asking what you said.
I couldn't quite hear.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it
it was a light brown jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Are you referring to this Exhibit 150 as being similar to
the jacket or similar to the shirt that you saw or, if not, similar to
either one?

Mr. BAKER. Well, it would be similar in color to it--I assume it was a
jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face and I wasn't
really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I
didn't pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went on.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that
correct?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the
police station?

Mr. BAKER. He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out.

Mr. BELIN. Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen
when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. BAKER. I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my
recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say.

Mr. DULLES. You saw Oswald later in the lineup or later----

Mr. BAKER. I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw
him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him
down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into the
building and on up what we are discussing now.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker----

Mr. DULLES. I didn't get clearly in mind, I am trying to check up, as
to whether you saw Oswald maybe in the same costume later in the day.
Did you see Oswald later in the day of November 22d?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. DULLES. Under what circumstances? Don't go into detail, I just want
to tie up these two situations.

Mr. BAKER. As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving
this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices
back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there
and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were
questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.

Mr. DULLES. You saw him for a moment at that time?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, you then left the second floor lunchroom with
Mr. Truly, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in the lunchroom after Truly
identified this person as being an employee?

Mr. BAKER. Just momentarily. As he said, "Yes, he works here," I turned
and went on up the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you have any time estimate as to the period
of time that elapsed between the time that you first got to the head
of the stairs and saw some movement through that first doorway and the
time you left to go back up to the flight of stairs going to the third
floor?

Mr. BAKER. I would say approximately maybe 30 seconds, something like
that. It was a real quick interview, you know, and then I left.

Mr. BELIN. All right. As you left, did you notice whether or not the
man in the lunchroom did anything or started moving anywhere?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. As I left he was still in the position that he was
whenever I was facing him.

Mr. BELIN. You then went where?

Mr. BAKER. I immediately turned and went on, started on, up the
stairways.

Mr. BELIN. All right. After going up the stairways, do you know what
numbered floor it was--I will ask you this, did you take the stairway
all the way to the top?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; we caught that elevator, it seemed like we went up
either one or two floors, and Mr. Truly said "Let's take the elevator,
here it is."

Mr. BELIN. Did you take an east or west elevator?

Mr. BAKER. We took the east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Now, the nearest elevator to you when you got off a flight
of stairs would have been the east or the west?

Mr. BAKER. The west.

Mr. BELIN. When you got off the flight of stairs Mr. Truly said, "Here
is an elevator," did the west elevator appear to be there?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice. I was looking around over the building at
the time he said, "Let's take the elevator" and I just followed him on
around.

Mr. BELIN. You went to an east elevator?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did it appear you rode up the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. It was a short ride. We just, either went one or two floors.
I couldn't remember. I was still looking at the floors, you know, as we
went up.

Mr. BELIN. As you rode up on the elevator, did you notice whether or
not you passed the elevator on the west side?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't notice.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice or hear anything to indicate that the
elevator on the west side might have been moving?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take the east elevator as far as it would go?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. We had to walk up another flight of stairs to get up to the
top floor.

Mr. BELIN. To get up to the roof?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you got off on the seventh floor or the top floor----

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not the other elevator was there?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice. You got off the east elevator and then
what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. We walked up the flight of stairs to the top.

Mr. BELIN. To the top. What did you do when you got to the top?

Mr. BAKER. We went out on the roof.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do on the roof?

Mr. BAKER. I immediately went around all the sides of the ledges up
there, and after I got on top I found out that a person couldn't shoot
off that roof because when you stand up you have to put your hands like
this, at the top of that ledge and if you wanted to see over you would
have to tiptoe to see over it.

Mr. DULLES. If you look right behind you, Officer, you will see a
picture and you might point out what the top wall that is shown on that
photograph of the building is how high?

Mr. BAKER. Well, it is about 5 feet. I know I had to put my hand on top
of it and tiptoe to see over it.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Mr. Dulles is referring to the picture of the
School Book Depository building on Exhibit 362 and in demonstrating
before the Commission as to where your hands were about how high are
they in relation to your shoulders or mouth or chin or what-have-you?

Mr. BAKER. Approximately 5 feet.

Mr. BELIN. Your hands are 5 feet high? Did you go over just to one roof
side or to all sides of the roof?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; we came out at this northwest corner back behind
this sign here.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And then I ran, kind of running walk, went all the way
around. First I glanced over this side here, because the last thing I
heard here on the radio was the chief saying, "Get some men up on that
railroad track."

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear that on your police radio?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that was the last thing I heard.

Mr. BELIN. As you were getting off your motorcycle?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Senator COOPER. I didn't hear what he said he heard on the radio?

Mr. BAKER. I heard Chief Curry, the chief of the police over there,
say, "Get some men over on the railroad track." I think everyone at
that time thought these shots came from the railroad track.

Mr. BELIN. By "everyone" do you include you, too?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. I had it--I was in a better position due to the
wind and you know under it, that I knew it was directly ahead, and up,
and it either had to be this building here or this one over here.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to either the first building, you are
pointing to the School Book Depository Building, and the second one
you are pointing to is the one across the street. When you heard
this announcement on your radio was it while you were parking your
motorcycle?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead, if you would, please. You are on the roof now.

Mr. BAKER. Well, as I looked over here, all these people, there were
people all over this railroad track.

Mr. BELIN. You are saying as you are looking over the south and over
the west?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. Then after I looked to see what was going on down there, and
then I figured out that he wouldn't have shot from that ledge he would
have shot from this sign or this old room, building back here on the
back side.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you are pointing to Exhibit 362 to the sign
on the top of the School Book Depository Building, the Hertz sign, and
some kind of a structure on the northeast corner of the building, is
that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when you talk, I wonder if you would look at
me, we might be able to hear a little bit better. Would you tell us
what else you did?

Mr. BAKER. As I finished going all around this building here and then I
came to this sign and I looked up there to see if I could find anybody
hiding up there and I started up these steps, it is a ladder there on
that sign, and I got on, say, 10 feet up there and I came back down, I
seen that nobody would shoot from up there. He wouldn't have no place
to hold on.

Mr. BELIN. By that you are referring to climbing the ladder to climb up
the sign, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; this large Hertz sign here.

Mr. BELIN. On the top of the School Book Depository Building on Exhibit
362.

All right. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. Then I came back down and I went and checked this building
right here. It is an old deserted room there of some type.

Mr. BELIN. Some kind of a shack on the northeast corner of the building?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Out there. What did you see when you saw that shack?

Mr. BAKER. As I approached it, and looked under it, there wasn't
anything under it, and you could tell that pigeons had been roosting
there for sometime.

Mr. BELIN. All right. There were indications that pigeons had been
roosting there?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. No indications that anyone would be around there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any pigeons there as you approached it?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. They had all--at the time I kind of glanced and
they were still flying around in the sky up there.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Senator COOPER. You referred to pigeons, did you see some pigeon
droppings?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Had they been disturbed in any way?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I went on back. Mr. Truly was standing over
here on this northwest corner and we descended on the stairs there.

Mr. BELIN. You went from the stairs to the roof to where, to the top
floor of the building?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the top floor of the
building?

Mr. BAKER. We walked on down one more flight of stairs and then we
caught the same elevator back down.

Mr. DULLES. The top floor was the seventh floor, is it not?

Mr. BAKER. Well, you have one flight of stairs going from the top floor
on up.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And then we caught the elevator back down, the same elevator
that we took up.

Mr. BELIN. When you referred to one flight of stairs, are you referring
to the flight of stairs from the roof to the top floor that you took or
the flight of stairs from the top floor to the next to the top floor?

Mr. BAKER. Well, there are two flights of stairs there. The one from
the roof down to the top floor and then there is another one there.

Mr. BELIN. When you took the elevator back did you take it from the top
floor down or from the next to the top floor down?

Mr. BAKER. That elevator to me, it didn't go to the top floor, it goes
to the next to the top.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take it as far as it went?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When--did you take an elevator down or did you take the
stairs down?

Mr. BAKER. We took the elevator down.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take the same elevator down you took up or did you
take a different elevator down?

Mr. BAKER. We took the same one.

Mr. BELIN. When you went to take that elevator going back down did you
notice whether or not the other elevator was there?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice. It would be to my back and I was looking
out forward.

Mr. BELIN. It would be to your back from where you came off the stairs
going to the roof?

Mr. BAKER. Are you talking about when we got on the elevator?

Mr. BELIN. When you got on the elevator to make the return trip?

Mr. BAKER. There wasn't one there whenever we come around out of the
stairway, you know, to get on, you know we had to get on the east side
instead of just stepping over on the west elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I am going to hand you what the court
reporter, what the Commission reporter, has marked as Exhibit 507 which
purports to be a diagram of the seventh floor of the Texas School Book
Depository Building and on that diagram you will see at the top the
marks of two elevators and then, what looks to be the south, a stairway
marked "Ladder to the roof."

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not this stairway marked
"Ladder to the roof" is the stairway that you took to go to the roof?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it would be.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, when you got off the elevator which you took up to the top floor,
which you said was the east elevator----

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west
elevator was on this top floor?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't notice it.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice whether it was or whether it was not?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir?

Mr. BELIN. When you got back down from the roof to this top floor, did
you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west elevator was on
that top floor or not?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I still didn't look at the elevator. I was
following Mr. Truly and every time I had a chance I would look around
over the building.

Mr. BELIN. You would look over the floor itself rather than the other
elevator?

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. You then got on the elevator to go on back down?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. And I believe you said it was the east elevator, is that
correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you take the east elevator down?

Mr. BAKER. As we descended, somewhere around--we were still talking and
I was still looking over the building.

Mr. BELIN. As the elevator was moving?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; downward.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. The next thing that I noticed was Inspector Sawyer, he was
on one of those floors there, he is a police inspector.

Mr. DULLES. City of Dallas Police?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. And he was on, I really didn't notice which floor
he was on, but that is the first thing I saw as we descended how this
freight elevator, you know, it has got these picket boards in front of
it and it has got it open so far, and it seemed to me like we stopped
for a moment and I spoke to him and I told him that I had been to the
roof, and there wasn't anything on the roof that would indicate anybody
being up there, and then we started on down.

Mr. BELIN. Did you stay on the elevator while you spoke to him?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what floor it was that you spoke to him on
or how many floors down that you went from the top before you saw him?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not at that time. It seemed to me like it was on
either the third or the fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about how long you stayed on the roof?

Mr. BAKER. It was a little over 5 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. When you continued moving on the elevator after you talked
to Inspector Sawyer how far did you go on the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. We went to the, I believe it would be the first floor there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You got off the elevator then?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you leave Mr. Truly or did you stay with him?

Mr. BAKER. I left Mr. Truly there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. I immediately went on out. I was with this motorcade and I
went right on straight through the front door and got on my motorcycle
and tried to find out what happened to the motorcade.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when you left the building had the building
been sealed off or not?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; there was an officer at the front door.

Mr. BELIN. The officer at the front door, was he stopping people from
coming in and out or what?

Mr. BAKER. I assumed that he was but I, you know, just went on out.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

When you got to the first floor on the east elevator did you notice
whether the west elevator was there?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that you observed in or about the
Texas School Book Depository Building at that day that you haven't told
us about that you can think of right now?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I can't think of anything else.

Mr. BELIN. From the time you went into the building how long did it
take you to go up and make your searches and come on down until the
time you left, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. BAKER. I would say that I was in there approximately 15 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. And you left there right at the time that you left Mr. Truly
on the first floor?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. In this time sequence you mentioned you were on the roof
more than 5 minutes, that could be 25 or 30 or 10 or 15 or what?

Mr. BAKER. This, to my recollection, it seemed like I shouldn't have
stayed up there over 10 minutes anyway, if that long.

Mr. BELIN. So you would say somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes?

Mr. BAKER. I just ran around up there looking for something; I didn't
find it and then we came on down.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, are there any questions that you have?

Mr. DULLES. I have no more questions. Have you any questions?

Mr. BELIN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I believe you testified that you later saw
Lee Harvey Oswald at the police station of the homicide office, is that
correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was this later on that same day?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, it was.

Mr. BELIN. Would you state whether or not the man who was shown to you
in the police station as Lee Harvey Oswald was or was not the same man
that you saw and encountered on the second floor lunchroom of the Texas
School Book Depository Building on that day?

Mr. BAKER. He was the same man.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about his clothes that you can
remember or his dress that you haven't talked about here?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I can't.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether or not he was wearing the same
clothes, did he appear to you the same when you saw him in the police
station as when you saw him in the lunchroom?

Mr. BAKER. Actually just looking at him, he looked like he didn't have
the same thing on.

Mr. BELIN. He looked as though he did not have the same thing on?

Mr. BAKER. He looked like he did not have the same on.

Senator COOPER. Did you say when you first saw this man walking away
from you in the lunchroom, walking away in the opposite direction, that
you said for him to come toward you.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did he turn around?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. DULLES. The officer testified he had a pistol in his hand at that
time, Officer Baker?

Senator COOPER. He did have a pistol in his hand?

Mr. BAKER. I had the pistol.

Mr. DULLES. Officer Baker had a pistol in his hand.

Senator COOPER. I see. Did he move toward you?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did.

Senator COOPER. Was there anything about his appearance that was
unusual?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. Whenever I called to him, well he turned around and
I had my gun in my hand, you know, and he started walking back towards
me and I walked to meet him, and I met him at that doorway over there
and about that time Mr. Truly who had started on up the stairs and then
he came back, he found that I wasn't with him, came back, and walked up
there aside of him and just about the time we met all three of us got
there together and I turned to Mr. Truly and I asked him, and I said,
"Do you know this man? Does he work here?"

And he said, "Yes," and that is whenever I turned and went on up
the stairs. At that time he didn't say a word, he didn't change the
expression or nothing on him.

Mr. DULLES. You testified, I believe, that he did not seem to be out of
breath?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Senator COOPER. He did not show any evidence of any emotion?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone else while you were in the building,
other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?

Mr. BAKER. On the first floor there were two men. As we came through
the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the
elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another
one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.

Mr. DULLES. Were they white men?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, we have an exhibit here 362 showing the first
floor of the School Book Depository Building, and the top part of the
exhibit is south. It is a little bit upside down from the usual top
being north.

You will notice here the stairway in the front of the building.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then there is a glass swinging door which I believe is
shown there.

Could you mark the point at which you believe you were when you called
out for someone to tell you where the stairway or elevator was?

Mr. BAKER. Is that the steps on the outside and this is the----

Mr. BELIN. These are the steps on the outside, this is the door, the
first door and this is kind of the main lobby here, below the words
"Main Entrance."

Mr. BAKER. Well, as you come up the steps, there is a glass door here
in front of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, this will be the recessed glass door right here
swinging?

Mr. BAKER. All of this is the lobby.

Mr. BELIN. Yes, that is all the lobby.

Mr. BAKER. OK. This is the first door that you open to get in.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And this is the lobby.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And then you have another set of glass doors.

Mr. BELIN. There is another door right here, yes.

Mr. BAKER. And on through this one you have a swinging door, a little
old counter-type door that swings----

Mr. BELIN. This would be the swinging door which would be to the west
of the room marked "Mr. Truly's office" on Exhibit 362?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where would you have been when you were yelling would
someone tell you about the stairs or the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. At this point approximately where the "T" is here.

Mr. BELIN. You would be where the "T" is?

Mr. BAKER. I was standing inside the front doors and I wasn't too far
from this door here.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the, what I call the, middle set of doors as
you come in, between the front set of doors and the doors by the side
of Mr. Truly's office, that little half door there.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And you were at the point as marked on Exhibit 362
approximately where the word "T" is.

Mr. BAKER. This lobby, to the best of my recollection, it seemed to me
like, would--I would say, about 15 feet wide or something like that.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And I had come in there, oh, say, 4 or 5 feet whenever I
said, "Where is the stairway or the elevator?"

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could show us on Exhibit 362 the route that
you took from the first floor to the time you went to the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. I came through the first set of doors, the second set and
this second little old counter-type here, and kind of ran through that,
from the southwest corner here through this swinging door.

Mr. BELIN. That is by Mr. Truly's office?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; to the northwest corner here.

Mr. BELIN. By the west elevator.

Mr. BAKER. West elevator, that is right.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be roughly along the pen line already in there,
would you estimate?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is pretty close to it.

Mr. BELIN. You then went to the east elevator where Mr. Truly first
pushed the button for the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Any further questions? Mr. Attorney General, do you have
any questions?

Mr. CARR. There is just one. There were many people around there at
that time, and the rest of the day----

Mr. DULLES. You are talking now about the Depository Building?

Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; at the time he has been testifying about. Did you
have occasion during the rest of the day either in passing visits or
idle conversation or anything of that type with any of the people that
were there at the time who might have seen something or told you some
theory they had about what might have happened?

Mr. BAKER. Not until last Friday morning. Chief Lunday, which is my
chief in traffic, called me and asked me to go down to this Texas
Depository Building, and I had--I have worked traffic outside several
times but I never did go inside or talk to any of the employees.

Mr. CARR. I am referring to the people who were out there at the time
of the shooting. Did you have a chance during that day to talk with any
of them or did you overhear any conversations that might be material to
the investigation here?

Mr. BAKER. The only ones that I talked to would be the solo officers
who were around him.

Mr. DULLES. Around whom?

Mr. BAKER. Around the President's car at that time.

Mr. DULLES. What was the nature of those conversations?

Mr. BAKER. Well, we just were discussing, each one of us had a theory,
you know where, how it happened, and really none of us knew how it
happened, it just happened, and where they was at in place, you know,
in reference to the car, would be about the only thing they could say,
and at the time the first shot they didn't know where the shot came
from.

The second shot they still didn't know, and then the third shot some
of them over to the left-hand side, the blood and everything hit their
helmets and their windshields and then they knew it had to come from
behind.

Mr. BELIN. Say this again, Officer Baker. When you say some were on the
left-hand side?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, I believe Officer B. J. Martin----

Mr. BELIN. Is he a motorcycle policeman?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he is.

Mr. BELIN. On a one- or two-wheeler or three-wheeler?

Mr. BAKER. He is a solo motorcycle, two-wheeler.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he riding at this time?

Mr. BAKER. He was on the left front.

Mr. BELIN. Of what?

Mr. BAKER. There were five motorcycle officers in front. There were
four, two on each right side behind.

Mr. BELIN. When you say in front and behind of what vehicle?

Mr. BAKER. We are referring to the President's car.

Mr. BELIN. All right. He was on the front and to the left of the
President's car.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you about blood or something?

Mr. BAKER. Like I say, we were talking about where the shot came from,
and he said the first shot he couldn't figure it out where it came
from. He turned his head backward, reflex, you know, and then he turned
back and the second shot came off, and then the third shot is when the
blood and everything hit his helmet and his windshield.

Mr. BELIN. Did it hit the inside or the outside of his windshield, did
he say?

Mr. BAKER. It hit all this inside. Now, as far as the inside or outside
of the windshield. I don't know about that. But it was all on the
right-hand side of his helmet.

Mr. BELIN. Of his helmet?

Mr. BAKER. On his uniform also.

Mr. BELIN. On his uniform.

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And he was riding to the left of the President and you say
ahead of the President?

Mr. BAKER. On the left-hand side.

Mr. DULLES. But a little ahead of him?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. They were immediately in front of the car.

Mr. DULLES. Any other conversations--pardon me, does that answer your
question?

Mr. CARR. I was more interested, sir, in that, of course, but with the
laymen around there. There was a lot of talk and theorizing at the
time and I was just wondering what he might have heard from any of the
laymen, or just ordinary onlookers of the parade, did you get a chance
to talk to any of them?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I didn't get a chance to talk to any of those.
At that time I immediately got on my motorcycle and went on down to
the Trade Mart down there where he was set up for the luncheon and at
the time I got on there I didn't stop until here come a sergeant and a
medical examiner and they wanted me to take them code 3 to Parkland, at
the time I got there we stood around the President's car there and kept
the crowd back, and that is where I stayed until, I think we left after
they loaded the body, we went to Love Field and stayed there for, say,
30 minutes or something like that.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to--pardon me, sir, does that take care of your
questions?

Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; thank you very much.

Mr. DULLES. Any further questions?

Mr. CARR. No; thank you, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any of the other officers who were in or
about the President's vehicle at the time of the shooting?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I talked to several of them and all of them had
kind of had the same story, you know. It had to come from above and
behind.

Mr. BELIN. When did you talk to these officers, like Officer Martin?

Mr. BAKER. That was--I didn't talk to him until we got back to the city
hall, which we got off, we were supposed to get off at 3 o'clock that
day, we got off around 4 the same time, they called us all in together.

Mr. BELIN. What other officers did you talk to and what did they say
that you remember?

Mr. BAKER. I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the
two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he?

Mr. BAKER. He was on the right rear of the car or to the side, and then
at that time the chief of police, he didn't know anything about this,
and he moved up and told him, and then that was during the time that
the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car, and at the time,
after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car
stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped.

Mr. BELIN. The President's car?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Now, I have heard several of them say that, Mr.
Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said
it stopped completely.

Mr. DULLES. You saw it stop, did you?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't see it stop.

Mr. DULLES. You just heard from others that it had stopped?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that it had completely stopped, and then for a
moment there, and then they rushed on out to Parkland.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, did this Officer Chaney say anything else
about, for instance, where he thought the source of the shots was?

Mr. BAKER. Not--he knew they came from behind him but he didn't know
where. He said from down there they was kind of going down that hill
and said that shot, the sound of it, you couldn't tell just exactly
where it came from.

Mr. BELIN. How did he know it came from behind then?

Mr. BAKER. Because he was riding from behind, and whenever it hit the
President, he said he would see him fall.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you are giving a motion now, did he see him fall
backwards first or forwards or when you say fall what do you mean by
that?

Mr. BAKER. Well, he just said, when they hit he kind of fell, so I
assumed he went to the left of him.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Did any other officer say anything to you about what he saw or thought
what happened?

Mr. BAKER. I talked to several of them but I can't remember exactly,
you know, just what their story was.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anyone you talked to who thought the shots came
from the front?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not except that the chief of police that is the
only one.

Now, that, like I say, that is the last thing I heard over that radio
is "Get some men up on that railroad." Now, that could mean they either
came from the side, which is due north, or right across in front of
him. You know----

Mr. BELIN. Well, apart from the statement you testified to that the
chief of police made over the radio about the underpass, was there
any policeman or patrolman who was in the motorcade who in any way
indicated to you that the shots came from the front?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. I would like to ask a couple of questions.

I think you said when you went inside the depository you saw no one
except the man you later identified as Oswald, and Mr. Truly. There
were two people sitting down on the first floor.

Mr. BAKER. As I entered that depository building, I was--people were
running toward you, I don't know whether they worked there or whether
they were just trying to get out of the way.

Mr. DULLES. From inside the building?

Mr. BAKER. No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside
and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to
my front.

Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in
and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever
I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming
in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also
around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door
deal.

Senator COOPER. As you went up on the elevator could you see out of the
elevator onto floors?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. The best that I could, that is the reason I wasn't
paying too much attention to the elevator I was looking around all
those floors.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone?

Mr. BELIN. When you say up on the elevator, he didn't get on the
elevator until he had got up on the stairs.

Senator COOPER. I am aware of that.

Mr. BAKER. I was still looking.

Senator COOPER. You went up on the second floor by stairs?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Then you got on the elevator.

Mr. BELIN. No, sir; he didn't get on the elevator until the fifth floor.

Senator COOPER. Anyway, as you walked up the stairs could you see into
each floor space as you passed from floor to floor?

Mr. BAKER. Partly. Now, this building has got pillars in it, you know,
and then it has got books, cases of books stacked all in it. And the
best that I could, you know, I would look through there and see if I
could see anybody.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. When you looked?

Mr. BAKER. Not from the second floor on up.

Senator COOPER. As you approached the building by motorcycle, did you
notice whether anyone was looking out of the windows of the Texas
School Book Depository?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Those windows, I would say a number of them were
open and I tell you, to the best of my recollection, I scanned those
windows, but I can't recall anybody looking out of them, you know. I
looked at all them buildings so much and there were people looking out
of every one of them, every doorway and every window, and I really was
looking high more at the roof of it than I was anything, and I really
didn't see nothing in the windows.

Senator COOPER. I may be repeating because I missed the first part of
his testimony.

Mr. DULLES. Go ahead.

Senator COOPER. But when you heard the shot, you said later you saw
some pigeons fly up.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. What was the sequence of time between the time you saw
the flight of the pigeons and you heard the shot?

Mr. BAKER. As I got that motorcycle straightened up, and I hadn't gone
just a very few feet there, it didn't seem like, you know, I went very
far, but it is possible I went, we figured maybe 80, 60 to 80 feet
there, and I looked up, as the shots started, I immediately looked
up, you know. I was already facing ahead and I just kind of raised, I
sighted up, and while I was looking up, those other two shots came off,
and as I come up, I noticed those pigeons start to fly up there, but I
really didn't see which, there were so many of them I couldn't tell
which building they were coming from but I know they were all over.

Say you were facing north like Houston they were in the sky facing
north in the street.

Senator COOPER. Which way were the pigeons going?

Mr. BAKER. They were just coming up, you know.

Senator COOPER. I assume you are a hunter, aren't you, from what you
said?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I try to be.

Senator COOPER. Have you seen birds in flight when they are suddenly
startled?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Well, was this the character of the flight of pigeons
you saw?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is the way it seemed to me, that these birds,
you know, just with a sudden uprush.

Senator COOPER. Did you have any notice of anyone saying there might
have been a shot from the railroad until you heard the statement over
the radio just before you entered the School Book Depository?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; that was the only words that I remember that was
said over the radio from the time the shots rang out until I started
parking that motorcycle, and when I came off of it I heard those words.

Senator COOPER. Could you see the railroad yards?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I could see it--this track ran under this triple
underpass to my left, all out behind this building.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anything there which attracted your
attention other than----

Mr. BAKER. Nothing except----

Senator COOPER. Crowd?

Mr. BAKER. There were people all over this track, over this triple
underpass, and people just standing all over this sloping bank there,
you know, going up.

Senator COOPER. Were there any officers that you saw near the School
Book Depository when you went in?

Mr. BAKER. There was an officer working traffic on that corner, and
Officer J. W. Williams was----

Mr. DULLES. By that corner you mean the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. J. W. Williams who is a motorcycle
officer, was, I thought, over on the left-hand side of me, and he was
right with me, but as I ran in this building, I found out that I was by
myself. I didn't know where anybody went.

Senator COOPER. Did you later see J. W. Williams, Officer Williams?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. He stated that when the motorcade left with the
President, and they immediately went code 3 to Parkland, why he was up
there with him and he went up there with him. And I later saw him out
there at Parkland.

Mr. DULLES. You testified, I believe, that you did not yourself see
the President's car stop. You just were told it was stopped by several
other officers?

Mr. BAKER. Let me say, as I parked that motorcycle, I looked down
there, well, the car had swerved to the left, and I saw this man run
out into this crowd and back. I don't know who he was but I saw that
and I saw these people following him, and all these pressmen jumping
out of their cars and running down the street toward him.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, do you know from where this man ran off into
the crowd at all or not?

Mr. BAKER. Apparently he came from one of the cars right there by
the President's car. He was, he came from the motorcade, inside the
motorcade out to the sidewalk and then back.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You mentioned the fact that you had gone or come back from deer hunting
just prior to November 22, 1963.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of a weapon did you have when you went deer
hunting?

Mr. BAKER. I had one of these .30-06, I believe the Springfield type.

Mr. BELIN. Is it a rifle?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Automatic or bolt action?

Mr. BAKER. Bolt action.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you owned a rifle, any rifle?

Mr. BAKER. This particular one I have had it approximately 7 years.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had much experience to go hunting?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Every year.

Mr. BELIN. Every year you go deer hunting?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You have had occasion to hear shots from your rifle?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. From other rifles?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did this in any way influence your decisions as to what you
did on November 22 as you heard the first sound?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. BELIN. In what way did it influence them?

Mr. BAKER. To me it was immediately a rifle shot. A lot of the solo
officers said they thought it was the backfire from a motorcycle
because you can make those motorcycles pop pretty loud. But that
instant it just, I don't know, it just hit me as a rifle shot.

Senator COOPER. How long have you been firing a rifle?

Mr. BAKER. Say, from the time I was about 17 years old.

Senator COOPER. Have you fired other types of rifles other than the one
you used?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; the first one I had was a 30-30 Marlin lever type.

Senator COOPER. Have you ever seen the rifle that is alleged to have
belonged to Lee Oswald?

Mr. BAKER. I saw it, a photograph of it, in the newspaper.

Senator COOPER. Do you know what kind of rifle it is?

Mr. BAKER. Not offhand. I heard it was some foreign make gun. Most of
the boys down there at the police department have had dealings with
foreign type guns, rifles, you know of this kind, and a lot of them
sell them, and a lot of them rework them, you know, make them into deer
rifles.

Senator COOPER. What were the characteristics of the report that you
heard, three reports, which made you believe that it was a shot from a
rifle?

Mr. BAKER. Well, they were too distinct, you know, to be--I have heard
that pop from that motorcycle and I have heard rifle shots, and to me
there was just a difference in them.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, did it appear to you that these sounds that
you heard were from the same rifle or from possibly more than one rifle?

Mr. BAKER. I would say they was from the same rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Did it appear that the sounds all came from the same source?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. With regard to the closeness of these sounds together, how
fast they came, did it appear that it came from or that it could have
come from a weapon that had to be operated by bolt action as opposed to
a semiautomatic or an automatic weapon?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed to me like you could either fire a semi or bolt
action in about the same time.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had occasion to use a bolt action rifle and fire
shots quickly one after the other?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. BELIN. Did it appear that, from what you heard, that from your
experience you could have operated your own bolt action rifle as
quickly as those shots came?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. If you made any judgment, what was the length of time
from the time you heard the first report until you heard the third?

Mr. BAKER. I would say just about as fast as you could bolt one of
those bolt action rifles which wouldn't be--I don't believe it would be
over 3 seconds apart.

Mr. DULLES. Over what?

Mr. BAKER. Three seconds apart.

Mr. BELIN. From each shot?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Three seconds from the first to the second and another 3
seconds from the second to the third?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You are saying not over 3 seconds?

Mr. BAKER. Not over 3 seconds.

Mr. DULLES. Any further questions?

Thank you very much, Officer Baker. Your testimony has been very
helpful. (At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)

TESTIMONY OF MRS. ROBERT A. REID

Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Reid, the Chief Justice had to leave a few moments and
he expressed his regret to you.

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. So I am presiding over the Commission at the present time.

As you possibly have been informed, the purpose of the testimony this
morning has been to hear the testimony of Officer Baker, yourself,
and certain others who were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book
Depository Building at the time of the assassination of the President,
and we will ask you give testimony in that connection and anything else
you may know.

Would you please rise, Mrs. Reid, and hold up your right hand.

Do you swear the testimony you will give before this Commission is the
truth, the whole truth, so help you God, and nothing but the truth?

Mrs. REID. I do.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin will carry forward the interrogation.

Mr. BELIN. We met in Dallas on Friday, March 20.

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, could you state your name for the Commission,
please?

Mrs. REID. Mrs. Robert A. Reid.

Mr. BELIN. That is R-e-i-d?

Mrs. REID. R-e-i-d, that is right.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Reid?

Mrs. REID. 1914 Elmwood Boulevard, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And are you originally from Dallas?

Mrs. REID. Well, I have been for quite a number of years. I was born
out in a little town out from Dallas, Cereal, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you go to school in Dallas? Did you go through
high school?

Mrs. REID. I completed high school there and I married and went to
Waxahachie and lived there about 15 years and moved back to Dallas then.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any family, Mrs. Reid?

Mrs. REID. You mean like sisters or my children?

Mr. BELIN. Well, children.

Mrs. REID. Both, I have six sisters and I have two children and a
grandchild.

Mr. BELIN. You have a grandchild?

Mrs. REID. And a husband, and a family.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mrs. Reid?

Mrs. REID. I am a clerical supervisor.

Mr. BELIN. For what company?

Mrs. REID. Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you worked for the Texas School Book
Depository?

Mrs. REID. I have been 7 years.

Mr. BELIN. Have you been a clerical supervisor all the time?

Mrs. REID. No; I started out in the department on what they call their
postage desk and I was appointed to a clerical supervisor.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, I am taking you to November 22, 1963.

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you on that day commencing with, say, around noon
or so?

Mrs. REID. Well, at 12 I went to lunch, and I had my lunch rather
hurriedly so that I might go downstairs and watch the parade.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, you say you ate your lunch?

Mrs. REID. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you eat your lunch?

Mrs. REID. In our lunchroom, in the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that?

Mrs. REID. Well----

Mr. BELIN. On what floor?

Mrs. REID. On two, the same floor as our office.

Mr. BELIN. That is on the second floor?

Mrs. REID. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you buy your lunch or bring your lunch?

Mrs. REID. No; I brought my lunch.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anyone in the lunchroom when you were eating lunch?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who was there?

Mrs. REID. Well, the girls that work under me, the young ladies,
goodness, it is all hard for me to remember how many there were, but
the general ones that usually eat there with me every day.

Mr. BELIN. On Commission Exhibit 497, is this room, this lunchroom, the
one that is marked "lunchroom" here with the numbers 25 and 26 in it?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And that is where you ate?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And on Commission Exhibit 497 do you work on the second
floor also?

Mrs. REID. I do.

Mr. BELIN. In the area marked with the room "office space," somewhere
in that room?

Mrs. REID. Over here.

Mr. BELIN. You say you work over near the dumbwaiter which is marked?

Mrs. REID. My desk----

Mr. BELIN. Your desk is near the dumbwaiter on Exhibit 497.

Mr. DULLES. That is the desk there, is it?

Mr. BELIN. That is the dumbwaiter.

Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Reid, you left lunch about what time?