[01:04]  * m0nkey_ is about to live boot 15.10
[01:04] <m0nkey_> wish me luck
[01:04] <daftykins> ooh you devil
[01:05] <m0nkey_> Well, 14.04 and 15.04 caused my current computer to hang for about a minute after boot. Here's hoping 15.10 fixes that
[01:06] <m0nkey_> ooh, it did
[01:06] <daftykins> weird
[01:07] <m0nkey_> heh, been using freebsd too much
[01:07] <m0nkey_> i'm trying to get into ports
[01:07] <m0nkey_> lol
[01:07] <m0nkey_> portsnap don't work in ubuntu :)
[09:13] <knightwise> morning peeps
[09:14] <popey> Pip pip
[09:14] <knightwise> hey popey , how are you
[09:15] <popey> Tickety boo, you?
[09:17] <knightwise> doin ok . Self employment is a busy enterprise :)
[09:17] <knightwise> but not complaining. Hoping to find the time to record a new podcast episode today
[09:41] <diplo> Mornign all
[09:41] <diplo> morning*
[09:43] <knightwise> ey diplo
[09:46] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Monday, and happy OK Corral Day! 😃
[09:47] <bashrc> Is there a Not OK Corral?
[10:02] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[10:27] <diplo> Keyboard changed to US after upgrade to Wily :/
[10:28] <diplo> Set to English UK though
[10:28] <awilkins> I kept getting that for a while
[10:29] <awilkins> I usually try and combat it by removing the US layout from the list entirely
[10:29] <diplo> Ah clicked on language support in settings and it says it's not installed completely
[10:29] <diplo> yeah isn\t there in mine
[10:30] <diplo> looks like tbird and libre updates though got yhsay
[10:30] <diplo> that*
[10:30] <awilkins> It's going to be a bigbang reinstall for me :-(
[10:30] <awilkins> Running 14.04 with a slightly convoluted partition table
[10:30] <awilkins> Windows 7 dual boot
[10:31] <awilkins> Have a nice new 500GB SSD that I want to benefit from
[10:31] <diplo> Going for reinstall on 16.04
[10:31] <awilkins> So it's OS on the SSD + Intel RST caching for /home   and G:\GAMES
[10:31] <awilkins> on the 2TB of spinning rust
[10:32] <awilkins> (well, not Intel RST for the Linux, bcache or something)
[10:32] <diplo> Mines my work machine, want to run VM's on it...
[10:33] <awilkins> Will have to upgrade Windows 7 to WIndows 10 as well
[10:33] <awilkins> Well, don't *have* to
[10:33] <diplo> Not doing that
[10:33] <awilkins> But if I'm bleaching the whole thing clean I may as well
[10:33] <diplo> Everything is set to UK
[10:33]  * diplo = stumped atm
[10:33] <awilkins> diplo, Is there some implication of SSD caching / VM images?
[10:34] <awilkins> diplo, I had a thing where you had to flip the config to USA and back again, even if it was showing UK
[10:34] <diplo> ah right, don't have US on there, will add and change and back ta
[10:35] <diplo> awilkins: I use the machine as a desktop, running anymore than a few VM's kills it... trying to get a new machine and reinstall..
[10:35] <awilkins> Ah
[10:35] <Myrtti_> I was so baffled yesterday trying to figure out what the hell had happened to my vm
[10:35] <awilkins> I was going to get a new machine
[10:35] <diplo> Going to find whats best for running that many VM's, not sure how well SSD's take to being on a lot on a desktop machine
[10:35] <awilkins> THen I discovered that for gaming purposes my CPU is only 3-4% slower than the latest Intel Behemoth or whatever
[10:35] <awilkins> So I just shoved another 8GB of RAM and a 980Ti in it
[10:36] <awilkins> Now the only thing holding it's awesome monster-ness back is the slow IO on the spinning rust
[10:37] <awilkins> Running a Windows 7 VM with 2 cores and 4GB of RAM allocated, works like a charm
[10:38] <awilkins> You can get away with 256MB for most Linux server VMs that are just web toasters
[10:38] <awilkins> Hell, I think that's overkill for most of the tasks I have them running
[10:38] <awilkins> I'm running my Redmine instance on a RPi2
[10:39] <awilkins> And the database on my NAS box (although it worked fine using sqlite locally on the RPi)
[10:50] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[10:52] <popey> Yo!
[10:53] <bigcalm> popey: cheeky
[10:54] <popey> wat?
[10:54] <bigcalm> Facebook comment. I guess I should have responded there
[10:56] <JohnHunt> https://t.co/we2U0HpvhS
[10:56] <JohnHunt> sorry, that's a shortlink
[10:57] <JohnHunt> history of ubuntu to date
[10:57] <JohnHunt> I remember using the first version :)
[10:57] <JohnHunt> I lost all interest when it went over to the unity interface
[10:59] <zmoylan-pi> then try xubuntu, works great for me
[11:01] <MartijnVdS> I've been installing Debian lately
[11:01] <MartijnVdS> minimal + cinnamon
[11:14] <bigcalm> JohnHunt: try http://ubuntu-mate.org/ - Mate is the forked continuation of Gnome2
[11:40] <JohnHunt> cool
[11:42] <bigcalm> And pronounced Mar-tay, not mate
[11:42] <bigcalm> Which is an oddity
[11:43] <JohnHunt> lol
[11:43] <JohnHunt> my name is linus
[11:43] <zmoylan-pi> that'll help promote it... :-)
[11:43] <JohnHunt> and I pronounce linux linux
[11:48] <zmoylan-pi> and don't get me started on the eejit who pronounces gif as jif...
[11:48] <zmoylan-pi> i'll set a jorilla on his ass :-)
[11:55] <popey> haha, oddity that words from another language are pronounced differently
[12:00] <zmoylan-pi> https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/English_hard_2learn.html
[12:04] <popey> http://www.gearbest.com/cell-phones/pp_231265.html
[12:04] <popey> interesting device
[12:08] <zmoylan-pi> a lot of spec for not much money
[12:11] <MartijnVdS> With some free hidden apps, provided by the Chinese Government?
[12:12] <zmoylan-pi> the gchq/nsa ones will be installed when you connect to uk network
[12:21] <TwistedLucidity> popey: Very nice for the price, can't be any worse than HTC garbage
[12:25] <JohnHunt> looks good except the big promo thing says stuff such as "64BITS TURE OCTA CORE"
[12:25] <JohnHunt> Ture?
[12:26] <JohnHunt> does look good though
[12:30] <JohnHunt> apparently the battery isn't so good
[12:31] <zmoylan-pi> it's a smart phone, of course the battery is crap
[12:31] <TwistedLucidity> Shut it, Nokiaphile! :-)
[12:32]  * zmoylan-pi clubs TwistedLucidity with my nokia to silence his dissent... :-P
[12:47]  * awilkins notes that zmoylan-pi's Nokia still works after clubbing TwistedLucidity to death with it
[12:48] <zmoylan-pi> no problems with it what so ever.  i did see a broken nokia screen last week but it took an encounter with a skip to break it
[12:49] <zmoylan-pi> plus the nokia has a battery life that lasts more that a day no matter what i do with it
[13:04] <awilkins> Their candybar phones are basically the uberphone
[13:04] <awilkins> They are the best at being a phone
[13:05] <awilkins> It's everyone's insistence on carrying around a pocket computer with a phone function that's the problem for them...
[13:06] <zmoylan-pi> well i could use java ssh client on my nokia asha 302 to connect to rasp pi at home for full computer...
[13:09] <zmoylan-pi> like this... https://twitter.com/angryearthling/status/617691779622637568/photo/1
[13:12] <awilkins> I question the "dumbness" of a phone with a full alphanumeric keypad and a colour LCD display with that many pixels
[13:13] <awilkins> This is a proper dumbphone  http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/nokia-s-3310-the-greatest-phone-of-all-time-1287636
[13:13] <zmoylan-pi> it's a phone that can only run 1 app with a few exceptions, mp3 player, fm radio etc.
[13:13] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: https://www.tumblr.com/search/3310
[13:14] <Dave> the 3310 surely isn't that dumb, it has Snake
[13:14] <diplo> I still have my 3310 in my drawer
[13:14] <diplo> and a 6210
[13:14] <diplo> My kids powered it on the other week, it *still* had charge :D
[13:15] <zmoylan-pi> your snake high scores were intact...
[13:16] <diplo> hehe, not sure I ever played it
[13:16] <diplo> tbh, no games on my smartphone either
[13:17] <zmoylan-pi> i have a very nice java sudoku for my nokia...
[13:17] <zmoylan-pi> AND a c64 AND a zx spectrum java emulator...
[13:17] <MartijnVdS> A c64 java emulator?
[13:18] <zmoylan-pi> yup
[13:18] <MartijnVdS> So you can run slow Java programs even slower, and on a C64? :P
[13:18] <zmoylan-pi> if i want accss to real games :-)
[13:24] <diddledan> fun talk about timezones with a choice quote: "when I started in tech I didn't really have career goals. But if I did, one of them wouldn't have been increase political tension in a long-standing conflict in the middle east" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BdFg5JT9lg
[13:29] <MartijnVdS> ooh a new time zone video, not Tom Scott's :)
[13:35] <diddledan> I think I need to put socks on my feet - I'm cold
[13:35] <diddledan> yey for working from home :-p
[13:36] <zmoylan-pi> put on slippers and break out the cocoa. \o/
[13:40]  * zmoylan-pi breaks out winter duvet as cold last night was a little much...
[14:48] <diddledan> finally got around to purchasing an SPI-capable USB cable to attempt a bios/efi firmware recovery
[14:50] <diddledan> I wonder whether I'll be able to achieve it...
[14:50] <Myrtti_> BusPirate?
[14:50] <diddledan> worth a shot tho, 'cos it's a dead mobo otherwies
[14:51] <diddledan> Myrtti_, an FTDI C232HM-DDHSL
[14:51] <diddledan> http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/Cables/USBMPSSE.htm
[14:51] <diddledan> I didn't buy off that site tho - I found a second-hand on ebay for a fiver
[14:52] <Myrtti_> we got a BusPirate trying to get into an old laptop that had bios/efi password protected and the password forgotten
[14:52] <Myrtti_> didn't get anywhere :-|
[14:52] <diddledan> :-(
[14:53] <Myrtti_> BusPirate was nice tho, I used it as oscilloscope when I was doing my bouquet
[14:53] <zmoylan-pi> motherboard didn't have a reset jumper to flush?
[14:53] <diddledan> I don't expect laptops would have one of those
[14:54] <zmoylan-pi> they do but it's harder to get to
[14:55] <diddledan> the cable I just paid for is said to be compatible with http://www.flashrom.org/Flashrom which is why I went for it
[16:01] <daftykins> diddledan: what machine is it?
[16:01] <diddledan> daftykins, it's an MSI mobo
[16:02] <daftykins> o0
[16:02] <daftykins> bleh overclockers.co.uk redesigned their site and removed the 'show excluding VAT' option :P
[16:02] <daftykins> that is highly frustrating
[16:03] <diddledan> they're encouraging mental arithmetic
[16:03] <diddledan> it's all part of the UK's new programme to improve the maths skills of the elderly
[16:03] <daftykins> ;)
[16:03] <daftykins> or us sarnians
[16:05] <awilkins> baconsarnians?
[16:06] <diddledan> the internet is claiming that bacon gives you cancer
[16:07] <awilkins> the internet gives you anxiety induced disorders
[16:07] <awilkins> Is there anyone in here who would recommend PHP?
[16:07] <diddledan> I like PHP
[16:08] <diddledan> I get paid to do PHP :-p
[16:08] <awilkins> Currently I'm getting paid to do PHP
[16:08] <daftykins> that good, huh? :)
[16:08] <awilkins> It's my second day of PHP. I'd rather be getting paid to do Python
[16:08] <awilkins> Or Ruby
[16:08] <awilkins> I hate Ruby and think it's a horrible little script kiddie language
[16:09] <awilkins> Basically been told to patch a PHP ticket tracker until it meets the specs
[16:09] <diddledan> I looked at ruby and didn't understand it
[16:09] <awilkins> My contention is that I can put up a Ruby ticket tracker that covers the requirements quicker
[16:10] <awilkins> Since I can set up this one I had in mind in an afternoon from scratch, I'm already right
[16:10] <awilkins> Whereas currently I'm struggling to find the bit I need to patch in this one
[16:11] <awilkins> Oh holy mentalist it's 173,000 lines of PHP
[16:11] <diddledan> :-o
[16:11] <awilkins> Wow
[16:11] <awilkins> The other system wins so hard
[16:12] <diddledan> redmine is the other system? :-p
[16:12] <awilkins> The PHP one is JUST a customer support ticket system
[16:12] <awilkins> osticket
[16:12] <awilkins> Redmine is the other system
[16:12] <awilkins> 115,000 lines of ruby
[16:12] <diddledan> yeah, redmine is good
[16:12] <awilkins> Including all the unit tests
[16:13] <awilkins> The UI and workflow on osticket are good for customer support. So naturally management want to use it to do change tracking. *s8gh*
[16:13] <daftykins> that's quite the difference
[16:13] <daftykins> then it's your job to persuade them toward seeing sense :D
[16:13] <awilkins> Tried that
[16:14] <awilkins> "We're already using osTicket" was the answer
[16:14] <awilkins> For 60 whole tickets
[16:14] <awilkins> Basically one step up from a shared Excel spready
[16:15] <daftykins> :|
[16:15] <daftykins> i've been asked to attend a meeting soon for some folk that are about to purchase a CRM system
[16:15] <awilkins> Yeah, well, I've only administered / transmogrified 5 separate ticket systems with tens of thousands of tickets, and used many more, what the hell do I know...
[16:15] <daftykins> i'm predicting the current local IT firm are going to be pushing something nasty like an MS SQL server backed product
[16:16] <diddledan> \o/ MS SQL!
[16:16] <awilkins> Ugh MSSQL
[16:16] <diddledan> we recently had to implement Drupal backed by MSSQL - it still isn't working right
[16:16] <awilkins> No.1 PITA when dealing with expensive enterprisey software is getting people to pay for extra instances for dev....
[16:17] <awilkins> Even if it's just an MSDN license
[16:17] <awilkins> Then waiting for it to arrive
[16:17] <awilkins> And installing it
[16:17] <awilkins> When you can just sudo apt-get install <stuff>
[16:18] <awilkins> Even that Redmine instance completely ignoring the OS packages (because gem / bundler and Debian hate each other)
[16:18] <diddledan> we were told we MUST use MSSQL because they already had a cluster set up that they wanted to add our drupal install's DB into
[16:18] <daftykins> even if this competitor guy of mine says they'll be using SQL Express, that's jut not good in my mind
[16:19] <daftykins> *just
[16:19] <diddledan> I don't get SQL Express at all
[16:19] <awilkins> It's MSSQL only they set the "PRAGMA_CRIPPLE" flag when they compiled it
[16:19] <daftykins> i used it for the first time for some client that was contractually obligated to use some horrible facilities management product, i found it nasty - not that i knew what i was doing :D
[16:20] <awilkins> 10GB db limit
[16:20] <bashrc> guiding a user through installing things via the software centre, I've always wondered by the icon has an anarchy symbol on it
[16:20] <awilkins> 1 CPU / 4 core limit
[16:20] <awilkins> And the kicker, only allowed 1GB of RAM in process
[16:21] <daftykins> :D
[16:21] <daftykins> at least it doesn't require a windows server host, that would be cringeworthy
[16:21] <awilkins> Oh, and doesn't support compressed volumes
[16:22] <awilkins> Not that this matters when your data limit is 10GB
[16:22] <daftykins> i've not got a clue of any CRM products though so i don't know what to expect, this client just wants this other IT firm off this company because they are very expensive
[16:22] <awilkins> Consulting firms ALWAYS recommend expensive stuff
[16:22] <awilkins> I think it's to distract from their bill
[16:22] <awilkins> Or they get a kickback
[16:22] <daftykins> :D
[16:23] <awilkins> WE had one lot that came in recommending StarTeam
[16:23] <daftykins> their labour rate is £95/hr too
[16:23] <awilkins> £34,000 of licenses
[16:23] <daftykins> ouch!
[16:23] <awilkins> I said "No, I'll develop the prototype using the SVN server we have in house, ta."
[16:23] <awilkins> And then sacked off the SVN and used Bazaar instead
[16:23] <awilkins> Because the checkout time was 2 times faster
[16:24] <awilkins> Sorry, 6x - 24x faster (depending on version of Bazaar and whether your machine was a horrible corporate malware laden Windows box)
[16:24] <jpds> and considering git is 100x faster than bzr
[16:24] <daftykins> actual malware, or Windows hatred there? :)
[16:25] <awilkins> I'd use Git these days but the Windows port was too painful at the time
[16:25] <awilkins> daftykins, "Corporate malware" : software that makes the computer do the IT department's bidding instead of yours at the expense of your productivity
[16:26] <awilkins> In this case, the thing wot hashes every file you access was super fun and took a processing run in the software from about 90s to 14 minutes
[16:26] <daftykins> ah right
[16:26] <diddledan> what's the ubuntu project and/or canonical's stance on bazaar these days?
[16:26] <awilkins> Although the performance improvements I made over the original software were still not swallowed by that
[16:27] <daftykins> i just phoned overclockers.co.uk who confirmed they've regressed their site entirely to not handle VAT removal either in display or orders now ;)
[16:27] <awilkins> There's still some traffic on the bzr mailing list, and it still remains the official VCS of Launchpad and Ubuntu AFAIK
[16:27] <daftykins> nice work, there :>
[16:27] <diddledan> daftykins, that's sucky
[16:30] <diddledan> I saw a few months back that launchpad had experrymental git support
[16:31] <awilkins> HERESY!!!!!
[16:31] <awilkins> Nah, I liked Bazaar a lot but I wouldn't go back
[16:33] <diddledan> the problem I have with the various SCMs is that they're all equivalent to walled-gardens like the various mobile ecosystems are
[16:33] <awilkins> Bazaar tried to be all things (well, more things) and act as a git porcelain
[16:34] <awilkins> And the various fast-export things + reposurgeon are positive
[16:34] <awilkins> I do think the best route is to make Git easier and better at handling large files
[16:35] <popey> yeah, the git support should be fun in launchpad
[16:35] <diddledan> the accepted solution for large files in git seems to be to store them elsewhere
[16:35] <awilkins> Pretty much because it's diff handling doesn't do streams I think
[16:35] <awilkins> So it has to hold the whole file in RAM 2 or 3 times
[16:36] <awilkins> I still don't understand why e.g. Game Devs use Perforce and advocate so hard for it
[16:36] <diddledan> doesn't google use perforce?
[16:37] <awilkins> I remember seeing a blog post by the Star Citizen guys "Hey we turned on <topic branches>, aren't we all grown up"
[16:38] <awilkins> I just facepalmed.... you're supposed to be _pros_ why wasn't that feature on from day 1 and use of it enforced.....
[16:38] <awilkins> This was some time after a couple of alpha releases
[16:38] <awilkins> "Oh hey, we get regressions" OH I WONDER WHY
[16:39] <daftykins> :)
[17:15] <diddledan> http://www.cameronsworld.net/
[17:15] <diddledan> geocities isn't dead!
[17:16] <bashrc> groovy
[20:39] <foobarry> talktalk hack was allegedly a 15yr old boy
[20:40] <daftykins> heh
[20:40] <foobarry> from ulster
[20:43] <diddledan> I think it was the government and they're scapegoating a 15yr old boy :-p
[22:12] <daftykins> that there popey has an odd quit message
[22:33]  * arsenip pokes daftykins
[22:33] <daftykins> ow
[22:33] <daftykins> hi
[22:35] <diddledan> I really wonder what an arse nip feels like
[22:35] <diddledan> it sounds painful
[22:37] <daftykins> i could lend you my cat for an answer
[22:37] <diddledan> lol
[22:38] <daftykins> nah she's not done that, she's more the one for slowly creeping up to the top edge of the bed sheets... extending a paw as far as she can reach then poking my face
[22:39] <daftykins> "hey... hey... HEY... hoo-man..."


[00:08] <joshu> I finally got it working with the following https://gist.github.com/anonymous/d8e61294931052f96f76
[08:42] <xnox> joshu: you can do env HOME=/home/test \n exec /usr/bin/brscan-skey, thus no need for script / end-script.
[08:43] <xnox> joshu: but it looks ok / good none-the-less.
[08:44] <joshu> hi xnox thanks for looking at it. I can make those changes. It took a long time to figure out that chdir wasn't working. I still don't understand why, but with the export or env in your case it works
[13:13] <scampbell> I have a system daemon that takes a long time to shutdown, I want rsyslog to stay up until that daemon is completely down but rsyslog.conf states stop on runlevel[06].   I'm not seeing how to accomplish this without altering rsyslog (and really others).  Suggestions?
[13:33] <jodh> scampbell: echo "stop on stopped your-job" |sudo tee /etc/init/rsyslog.override
[13:34] <scampbell> ah, thank you.
[13:37] <jodh> scampbell: note that if your daemon takes a really long time to stop, you may need to meddle with /etc/init.d/sendsigs as that is what currently handles "final cleanup" before shutdown.
[13:49] <scampbell> thx, this points me in the right direction to read up :)
[15:28] <SpamapS> hrm
[15:29]  * SpamapS gets annoyed by the default respawn limit
[17:10] <xnox> SpamapS: too much, too little, not often enough? =)
[17:10] <SpamapS> xnox: Actually I took a moment to reason about what was happening and it is good.
[17:10] <SpamapS> xnox: my program does a few http fetches and fails.. and then gets respawned.. infinitely
[17:10] <xnox> SpamapS: a cup of tea solves everything !
[17:10] <SpamapS> but.. that's probably a good default
[17:11] <SpamapS> even though the fail is not related to the fetches..
[17:11] <SpamapS> kind of makes sense to just keep trying something that fails 1 time per second forever in the thought that it may very well just be failing temporarily because of network
[17:11] <scampbell> It's turning out to be real fun to arrange for large application to be stopped on shutdown/reboot before the other services are stopped.


[01:25] <tyler> hello, i need help
[01:26] <tyler> so anybody able to help?
[01:27] <tyler> Hel-Fucking-Lo is anybody there?
[02:03] <holstein> wow.. 2 minutes til cursing..
[05:07] <Guest41922> #hmm
[07:52] <nicolo> xdcc send #122
[08:54] <jarnos> I would like to be able to move media files from Samsung Galaxy S5 Mini to 14.04.
[08:54] <jarnos> Via USB
[08:55] <cfhowlett> jarnos, dist-upgrade to 14.04.1            no issues with my nexus 4
[08:55] <jarnos> cfhowlett, I have updated the system.
[08:55] <cfhowlett> jarnos, cat /etc/issue
[08:56] <jarnos> cfhowlett, Ubuntu 14.04.1 LTS \n \l
[08:57] <cfhowlett> jarnos, ok.  plug in, set your USB settings on the phone to camera
[08:57] <jarnos> cfhowlett, if I use MTP connection I can browse photos, but not view them,
[08:59] <cfhowlett> jarnos, I'm on a nexus so "pure" android.  samsung adds ... stuff so it may/may not allow full access.
[09:00] <cfhowlett> jarnos, but as far as moving stuff around; if you can see it, you can move it, right?  or use the airdroid app
[09:02] <jarnos> cfhowlett, when in PTP mode,  loading folder contents and scrolling is very unresponsive in Thunar.
[09:03] <cfhowlett> jarnos, again.  zero issues on my nexus so I suspect your samsung adds some incompatible stuff
[09:05] <jarnos> cfhowlett, pcmanfm behaves better than thunar in this.
[09:05] <cfhowlett> jarnos, use what works
[09:06] <jarnos> cfhowlett, I wish Ubuntu Studio did work by default.
[11:53] <hlblyhipy> Hi,im trying to get bristol working and dont know how to open it.
[11:53] <cfhowlett> !info bristol
[11:53] <hlblyhipy> Downloaded it from sxtra sound generator.It shows up in synaptic but cant find it.Im new here,so any help would be great
[11:54] <cfhowlett> hlblyhipy, open a terminal.  type bristol.  press <enter>  [cross fingers]
[11:54] <hlblyhipy> cross fingers lol
[11:57] <hlblyhipy> ok startBristol gave me what looks like a man page and suggested startBristol -b3 and nothing
[11:57] <hlblyhipy> Now I know why you said cross fingers
[12:04] <cfhowlett> :)
[12:04] <cfhowlett> hlblyhipy, wait 1.
[12:04] <hlblyhipy> ok
[12:07] <cfhowlett> hlblyhipy, ok, seems to be looking for something in jack.  I'd suggest starting & configuring jack then try again.
[12:07] <cfhowlett> hlblyhipy, startBristol          (case sensitive) will show you more
[12:08] <cfhowlett> -readme for verbose
[12:08] <hlblyhipy> what do you mean for verbose sorry forgot to mention im new to the terminal too
[12:09] <cfhowlett> hlblyhipy, got it!  startBristol -mini
[12:10] <cfhowlett> hlblyhipy, no sound though.  you gotta deal with jack.  ask #opensourcemusicians
[12:11] <hlblyhipy> that did the trick i got sound and the gui looks nice now on to experimenting.Thanx alot
[12:11] <cfhowlett> hlblyhipy, you got sound?  HOW?
[12:12] <hlblyhipy> using jack i just connected bristol to the system
[12:12] <cfhowlett> hlblyhipy, nice.  good work
[12:13] <hlblyhipy> i still have to hook up my maudion keystation
[12:15] <hlblyhipy> i tired to hook up my maudio keysattion using a2jmidid but when i hit a key it got stuck,so its working but i have to tweak it i guess
[12:20] <hlblyhipy> ok fixed that issue.The maudio is working and im using the bristol but i dont see a way to change instruments
[12:34] <hlblyhipy> seems to be workin great except it just crashed,but i least it;s a start plus i learned more about the terminal.Thanx so much for your patience and your help


[13:47] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-screensaver 0.1.11 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-screensaver-0-1-11-released-tp59566.html (by Sean Davis)
[21:38] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-mailwatch-plugin 1.3.0 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-mailwatch-plugin-1-3-0-released-tp59569.html (by Andre Miranda)


[09:35] <cnnx> good day, i'm building a linux robot using Lubuntuanad need a wifi adapter , can yu suggest one? u dont want to buy one that is non-compatible with currentn version of kernels
[09:39] <oxfuxxx> i think the tiny dongle realtek80xx should be fine.
[09:39] <cnnx> ok thnks
[09:39] <oxfuxxx> usb dongle i mean.


[07:18] <dholbach> good morning
[08:46] <dpm> morning dholbach, did the conference go well?
[09:03] <dholbach> hey dpm
[09:03] <czajkowski> ello folks
[09:04] <dholbach> dpm, yep - it was a bit smaller than expected, but Maria was happy with the turnout and the discussions she had had
[09:04] <dholbach> lots of last minute preparations, but it was all right - everyone was excited about the phone
[09:11] <czajkowski> so hard to know how many people will actualy turn up to a conference
[09:11] <czajkowski> with sold tickets and comp tickets and other sessions
[09:11] <czajkowski> looks liek it went down wel going by tweets/posts
[09:41] <dpm> dholbach, sorry, I was otp. Cool. Thanks a lot again for traveling and supporting Maria and her team
[09:42] <dholbach> no worries
[10:10] <popey> dholbach: blogged about xda...
[11:21] <dholbach> popey, yeehaw
[11:28] <dholbach> popey, well written
[11:28] <popey> ta


[00:07] <bob5> config table fw_platformsize runtime systab
[00:07] <bob5> efivars fw_vendor runtime-map vars
[00:07] <bob5> sudo parted-l is huge
[00:08] <bob5> partition table is GPT
[00:08] <arraybolt3> OK good.
[00:08] <arraybolt3> That's all I need to know from those.
[00:09] <bob5> the motherboard is set to both UEFI and legacy boot. I tried running it in either of them and it didn't help
[00:09] <bob5> running in both was best as it showed all options in boot menu
[00:09] <arraybolt3> OK.
[00:09] <bob5> the motherboard would detect "ubuntu" but it stayed broken no matter what I did
[00:09] <arraybolt3> What all different operating systems do you have on there?
[00:10] <bob5> only lubuntu now
[00:10] <bob5> I use to have windows lubuntu and mint
[00:10] <bob5> w7*
[00:11] <arraybolt3> Oh OK. You have an EFI partition near the very beginning of the drive, right?
[00:12] <bob5> I just opened a fiel from the partition that was restored from the usb and it works well
[00:12] <bob5> yes I have a 200mb Ext4 sda1
[00:13] <bob5> bios-grub flag is unchecked (checking it didn't fix it before)
[00:13] <arraybolt3> OK. And your BIOS is telling you that it can't find any OS when you try to boot?
[00:13] <bob5> No it lists the HDD and ubuntu as boot options
[00:14] <bob5> after that it would either say cannot read or write outsie hd0 or no OS found or maybe a 3rd options and entering grub rescue mode
[00:14] <arraybolt3> And both options result in an error message about no OS?
[00:14] <bob5> yes I could test it again now but I'm sure I've tried it
[00:14] <arraybolt3> OK! Good to know. Then I think you don't even have to reinstall the bootloader. I think you just need to regenerate the configuration.
[00:14] <arraybolt3> Can you do "ls /mnt" real quick? It should be empty.
[00:14] <bob5> I mean the option would change depending on what I did to try to get it to work
[00:15] <bob5> nothing happened
[00:15] <arraybolt3> That's fine. You're description sounds like the bootloader is working, but can't find the operating systems. This is very easy to fix.
[00:16] <arraybolt3> Good. So, mount your EFI partition using "sudo mount <path to EFI partition> /mnt".
[00:16] <bob5> right now the disk has the following: EFI, unallocated(u) 800mb, Shrinked OS part, u, backup of original size OS part, u, restored shrink OS part
[00:16] <bob5> , u
[00:17] <arraybolt3> That's fine. Just mount the EFI partition.
[00:17] <arraybolt3> (You can use "lsblk" to find your EFI partition.)
[00:18] <bob5> ok /dev/sda1 worked
[00:18] <arraybolt3> OK. Can you tell me the results of "ls /mnt/boot"?
[00:18] <bob5> no such file or dir
[00:18] <arraybolt3> Perfect. Do "sudo mkdir /mnt/boot
[00:19] <arraybolt3> Then do "sudo mkdir /mnt/boot/grub"
[00:20] <arraybolt3> Let me know whenever those are done.
[00:27] <bob5> done
[00:28] <bob5> I'd appreciate for my learning that you tell me what the commands do
[00:28] <arraybolt3> ls tells you the contents of a folder.
[00:29] <arraybolt3> mkdir makes a folder.
[00:29] <arraybolt3> lsblk tells you what block devices (usually disk drives) are in your system.
[00:29] <arraybolt3> So what we're doing right now is creating extra folders in your UEFI partition, where we'll get to put the GRUB configuration.
[00:30] <arraybolt3> This should enable your system to boot.
[00:31] <arraybolt3> OK, so, I'm doing some research, 'cause I'm realizing my setup is a bit weird, and I'd like things to just continue to work as normal for you once this is done. You're still restoring the backup partition, right?
[00:37] <bob5> No the backup partition was restored
[00:37] <bob5> and It works
[00:37] <bob5> so I have both the /home/ folder backup and a partition backup on USBs
[00:38] <bob5> by works I mean I can access and open files from it
[00:38] <arraybolt3> OK. I've almost finished getting the final solution made, hang tight for just a sec...
[00:42] <bob5> I'm going to fix my table I'll be back
[00:43] <arraybolt3> OK. I think I've got everything figured out, I'm doing one final test to be sure, if it works, I'll give you the commands.
[00:52] <arraybolt3> Alright, whenever you're back, I'm ready.
[01:07] <bob5> lol
[01:07] <bob5> rdy
[01:08] <arraybolt3> OK. "sudo grub-mkconfig -o /mnt/boot/grub/grub.cfg"
[01:08] <arraybolt3> That should generate the boot configuration file and enable your system to boot again. We're not quite done yet, though.
[01:10] <bob5> .
[01:11] <bob5>  /usr/sbin/grub-probe: error: failed to get canonical path of '/cow'
[01:11] <arraybolt3> Duh... what? Are you sure you didn't make a typo?
[01:12] <bob5> yeah
[01:13] <bob5> the prior command was sudo mkdir /mnt/boot/grub
[01:13] <arraybolt3> Crud. I've never seen that error before in my life.
[01:14] <arraybolt3> And that command runs perfectly on my system..
[01:15] <arraybolt3> I'm looking up what the error means.
[01:16] <arraybolt3> Oh I see why it's gone berzerk.
[01:17] <arraybolt3> Hold on, I think I've got the solution. I'm almost there.
[01:21] <arraybolt3> OK, so the error appears to be because grub-mkconfig is getting confused because of our directory setup.
[01:22] <arraybolt3> Can you tell me the "/dev/sd<whatever>" of your main partition?
[01:22] <arraybolt3> It's /dev/sda3 right?
[01:24] <bob5> sda4
[01:24] <arraybolt3> OK. And /dev/sda1 is your EFI partition, correct?
[01:24] <bob5> wouldn't mind booting to sda 2
[01:24] <bob5> yes
[01:24] <arraybolt3> OK. Try this:
[01:25] <arraybolt3> sudo umount /dev/sda1
[01:25] <arraybolt3> sudo mount /dev/sda2 /mnt
[01:25] <bob5> sda1 and sda3 are shrinked versions so I would have to extent them later
[01:25] <arraybolt3> sudo mount /dev/sda1 /mnt/boot/efi
[01:25] <arraybolt3> sudo chroot /mnt
[01:25] <arraybolt3> sudo grub-mkconfig -o /boot/efi/boot/grub/grub.cfg
[01:25] <arraybolt3> exit
[01:26] <arraybolt3> That should get the mounts all in the way that grub-mkconfig wants, and then let it make the config file.
[01:26] <bob5> last command gave sudo: grub: command not found
[01:27] <bob5> oh wait
[01:27] <arraybolt3> Probably did a space rather than a dash
[01:28] <arraybolt3> (You'll notice the new "chroot" command - this gives you a shell that believes the root directory is whatever directory you tell it. This makes it so that grub-mkconfig can find all the files it expects.)
[01:29] <bob5>  /usr/sbin/grub-probe: error: cannot find a device for / (is /dev mounted?).
[01:29] <arraybolt3> How'd it go? Did it print some output about "sourcing configuration files" and "found initrd" and stuff like that?
[01:29] <bob5> no
[01:29] <bob5> just gave what I wrote
[01:30] <bob5> maybe it would be easier to edit mount points in KDE
[01:30] <arraybolt3> Oh I just saw that. Argh, forgot that about chroots...
[01:30] <bob5> nvm
[01:31] <arraybolt3> OK, so type "exit", then do "sudo mount --bind /dev /mnt/dev"
[01:31] <arraybolt3> Then do "sudo chroot /mnt" again.
[01:32] <arraybolt3> Then do "sudo grub-mkconfig -o /boot/efi/boot/grub/grub.cfg" again.
[01:35] <bob5> it's doing lots of stuff now
[01:35] <arraybolt3> That's a good sign!
[01:35] <bob5> cannot find list of partitions
[01:36] <arraybolt3> Hmm. OK, sounds like we need to do another bind mount. Do "exit".
[01:37] <arraybolt3> OK, my research is failing me. Bear with me while I get a test environment set up, this shouldn't take long.
[01:38] <arraybolt3> OK, getting my test stuff booted.
[01:39] <zob> Uploaded file: https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/1f8b72e2ccf6de42e9816cc3d2215e23/pasted.txt
[01:41] <arraybolt3> Got it! Here's the command sequence (assuming you did the "exit" already). I'll look at your file first.
[01:41] <arraybolt3> Oh wait, wrong guy's file.
[01:41] <arraybolt3> @bob3 Command sequence:
[01:41] <arraybolt3> @bob5 Command sequence:
[01:41] <arraybolt3> sudo mount --bind /proc /mnt/proc
[01:41] <bob5> no that's also me
[01:41] <arraybolt3> sudo mount --bind /sys /mnt/sys
[01:41] <arraybolt3> sudo chroot /mnt
[01:41] <arraybolt3> grub-mkconfig -o /boot/efi/boot/grub/grub.cfg
[01:41] <arraybolt3> OK, I'll look at it.
[01:42] <zob> got a bunch of fails will give u txt
[01:42] <arraybolt3> Yeah, that's similar to what I saw. The command sequence fixed it, but I'll look at what fails you got this time.
[01:42] <zob> oh wait it did find them
[01:42] <arraybolt3> Do you see "found linux image" in the output?
[01:42] <zob> Uploaded file: https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/8cc35c915b38e688efe7df528cf2dbc7/pasted.txt
[01:43] <zob> yes!
[01:43] <arraybolt3> Uh... you may have missed the "sudo mount --bind /proc /mnt/proc" part.
[01:43] <arraybolt3> Do this:
[01:43] <arraybolt3> exit
[01:43] <arraybolt3> sudo mount --bind /proc /mnt/proc
[01:43] <zob> I did miss it
[01:43] <arraybolt3> sudo chroot /mnt
[01:43] <arraybolt3> Now do grub-mkconfig again.
[01:44] <arraybolt3> Upload the results when it's done and I'll tell you if it's good.
[01:44] <zob> shouldn't i do the sys part first?
[01:44] <arraybolt3> If you already did the sys part, you don't need to do it again.
[01:44] <arraybolt3> And it doesn't matter what order you do the "mound --bind" commands in.
[01:45] <arraybolt3> As long as you do them before the chroot.
[01:45] <zob> think we got it
[01:45] <arraybolt3> What's the output look like? (It's probably good.)
[01:45] <zob> now I'll have to delete all but one of the isntalls to not get confused
[01:46] <zob> Uploaded file: https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/8ed29f41c21c82d1e8897d80d3716135/pasted.txt
[01:46] <arraybolt3> OK, there's one last step before everything's done.
[01:46] <arraybolt3> Looks good!
[01:46] <zob> When we're done I'd like a summary of what to do in the future for my notes
[01:46] <zob> if it happens again
[01:46] <arraybolt3> Alright, reboot, **remove the live ISO**, and boot into the fixed system.
[01:47] <arraybolt3> And yes, I'd be happy to give you a summary.
[01:48] <bob5> ok when I boot all I get is ubuntu followed by STA xxxxx whatever the drive name is
[01:48] <bob5> dman
[01:48] <arraybolt3> Does selecting an option in the menu do anything?
[01:48] <arraybolt3> Or are you stuck at a "/dev/sdXY clean" something or other prompt?
[01:48] <bob5> ubuntu gave " error file '/boot/grub/i386-pc/normal.mod' not found, entering rescue mode... grub rescue>
[01:49] <bob5> I don't recall if EFI was fresh or was after running boot-repair
[01:49] <arraybolt3> And confusingly, I'm not seing /dev/sda2 as an option to boot from in your grub-mkconfig output.
[01:49] <arraybolt3> Oh, wait, i386-pc : the thing's trying to boot in BIOS mode. Change it to EFI mode and try again.
[01:50] <arraybolt3> We just did a bunch of repairs for EFI, and now it's trying to boot with BIOS - that won't work.
[01:50] <bob5> holy shit I see something for the first time
[01:50] <arraybolt3> Anything good?
[01:50] <bob5> There's an additional bios option for storage boot option control
[01:50] <bob5> it was set to legacy only
[01:50] <arraybolt3> Yep, that's what it looked like.
[01:50] <bob5> noo same error
[01:51] <bob5> I set it to UEFI first
[01:51] <arraybolt3> Even in EFI mode? And the error says "i386-pc" in it?
[01:51] <bob5> yes
[01:51] <arraybolt3> OK, so this part will be interesting. Boot the live ISO again. We're going to do a manual bootloater install. (I've run into this same sort of thing on my systems.)
[01:52] <bob5> What should the mobo do? uefi only?
[01:52] <bob5> I could try uefi only for both options
[01:52] <arraybolt3> Yes, UEFI only. Actually, do that first before booting the live ISO.
[01:52] <arraybolt3> Your system keeps booting a BIOS copy of GRUB, when it needs a UEFI copy for the fixes we did to work.
[01:53] <arraybolt3> Once you've got UEFI only set, reboot without the live ISO.
[01:53] <bob5> reboot and select proper boot device
[01:53] <arraybolt3> Select your hard drive.
[01:53] <bob5> will select it now instead of leaving it to auto
[01:53] <arraybolt3> Do you get a GRUB menu or a desktop?
[01:54] <bob5> only option now is ubuntu and I get same error
[01:54] <bob5> It worked with UEFI before it stopped working
[01:54] <bob5> I had a menu where I could choose lubuntu mint or windows
[01:55] <arraybolt3> Yeah, sounds like something's gone awry with your bootloader. Really, at this point, it might be best to reinstall from scratch, since your system has a LOT of really weird config on it, but if we want to repair it still, we can install the bootloader.
[01:55] <bob5> bootloader is something in the EFI?
[01:55] <arraybolt3> Sorta. It's a mini-OS that your system boots first, and it finds Linux and boots it.
[01:55] <arraybolt3> It should be in your EFI partition.
[01:56] <arraybolt3> (While we're at this, we should change the EFI partition to fat32 - I've never seen an EXT4 EFI partition before, so I wonder if that's part of the problem.)
[01:56] <arraybolt3> OK, so boot into the live ISO. It has everything we need.
[01:57] <arraybolt3> Once you're in the live ISO, open KDE Partition Manager, and reformat the EFI partition to fat32. Make sure to set the "boot" flag on it when you do that.
[01:59] <bob5> the thing about KDE is the only flag option is "bios-grub"
[01:59] <arraybolt3> Hmm, that's odd. You're right-clicking the EFI partition, clicking Reformat, and selecting "fat32", right?
[01:59] <bob5> Buit I can download gnome-disk-utility
[02:00] <arraybolt3> Ugh, that's awful. Use "GParted". "sudo apt install gparted"
[02:00] <arraybolt3> I mean, if you're used to gnome-disk-utility, do whatever works for you, I just find it confusing and easy to make mistakes in.
[02:03] <bob5> where do I find this irc channel?
[02:04] <arraybolt3> https://lubuntu.me/links/
[02:04] <arraybolt3> It's near the top of the page.
[02:04] <bob5> it's not lubuntu.net or lubuntu.me
[02:04] <arraybolt3> Lubuntu.me.
[02:05] <bob5> got it
[02:05] <arraybolt3> Lubuntu.net is an unofficial site that the Lubuntu devs have tried to get taken down. There's a whole fight over it in a bug report.
[02:05] <bob5> is it malicious?
[02:05] <arraybolt3> Dunno, but it's incorrect for sure.
[02:06] <zob> libparted error: the backup gpt table is corrupt, but the primary appears OK so that will be used
[02:06] <arraybolt3> I think some former Lubuntu guy made it, and then when he left the team, he didn't let the site down. I could be wrong (probably someone else in this channel has better details)
[02:06] <zob> I remember I checked these before and only the header was corrupted
[02:06] <zob> then after restoring header from ehader backup all were good
[02:06] <arraybolt3> Oy! That's... possibly part of your problem.
[02:06] <zob> both aprtition priamry and backup were always good
[02:06] <zob> so this is news
[02:06] <arraybolt3> I'm guessing you've been messing with this system's partitions a lot?
[02:07] <zob> a lot
[02:07] <zob> I didn't save my instructions to fix this
[02:07] <arraybolt3> Yeah, it *might* be fixable at this point, but you have plenty of backups. I'd recommend reinstalling from scratch and then restoring from one of your home backups. That will be far more effective and probably much faster than any repair we can do at this point.
[02:09] <arraybolt3> Also, if you like messing with new operating systems like I do, you should look into virtualization. Once you're system is working again, do "sudo apt install virt-manager" and enjoy.
[02:09] <zob> If I overwrite the new install aprtition with the backup, will it work?
[02:09] <zob> no I had another use case
[02:09] <arraybolt3> No, erase disk and install Lubuntu. If your apps don't work, we can mess with the partition backups, but otherwise, erasing the whole disk is the best bet (we need to fix that partition table error you got earlier)
[02:10] <arraybolt3> (and just overwriting a partition probably won't fix it, but erasing the disk should)
[02:10] <arraybolt3> (Also, anything involving multiple operating systems is leaps and bounds easier using virt-manager. It allows you to split one system into multiple virtual computers, each running its own OS. You can run two, three, or more operating systems at the same time using it.)
[02:11] <zob> I'm aware but I only need 1 os
[02:11] <arraybolt3> oh OK.
[02:11] <zob> I was able to fix and verify that partition and header were fixed before
[02:12] <zob> so shouldn't I do this instead
[02:12] <zob> it sounds to me like you said onyl way to fix partition table is to wipe and reinstall
[02:12] <arraybolt3> The problem is, something got your partition table messed up, and I don't know what. Trying to repair something that's this scrambled *might* work, but it's not as safe as just starting afresh. You'll still have your home backups to make your apps work.
[02:13] <zob> hey it says the backup is fine
[02:13] <zob> so just copy backup to primary
[02:14] <zob> err backup is corrupt but primary ok*
[02:15] <bob5> going to use this https://www.rodsbooks.com/gdisk/repairing.html
[02:15] <arraybolt3> I've never messed with partition table backups before, so I don't know what it's going to do. You probably know more than I do about this particular part of what you're doing.
[02:16] <bob5> It's start with checking the status here if ur curious https://askubuntu.com/questions/386752/fixing-corrupt-backup-gpt-table
[02:19] <zob> oh got it's worse than last time
[02:19] <zob> Uploaded file: https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/27c3da25203d1bdf9d244d08d8338a36/pasted.txt
[02:19] <zob> going to put this here for posterity
[02:19] <zob> It was all fixed before we talked...
[02:20] <arraybolt3> That's really odd, because nothing that we did should have messed with the partition table... except for your copying the backup partition, but that doesn't seem like something that would do **this**.
[02:20] <arraybolt3> I wonder if your main hard drive is failing. What brand is it and how long have you been using it?
[02:29] <arraybolt3> @zob @bob5 Well, I hate to say it, but I have to go. I probably won't be on again for most of tomorrow, but if we run into each other again, I'd be happy to offer what help I can!
[02:30] <zob> Uploaded file: https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/a91cf09b6da472dc0c00750f4ba4b579/pasted.txt
[02:30] <zob> fixed it
[02:30] <zob> it's seagate and I thought about this too now :(
[02:35] <bob5> I'll try a fresh wipe and install in the meantime
[02:42] <bob5> https://askubuntu.com/questions/386752/fixing-corrupt-backup-gpt-table
[02:45] <bob5> manual recovery:
[02:45] <bob5> sudo mount --bind /proc /mnt/proc
[02:45] <bob5> sudo mount --bind /sys /mnt/sys
[02:45] <bob5> sudo chroot /mnt
[02:45] <bob5> grub-mkconfig -o /boot/efi/boot/grub/grub.cfg
[02:46] <bob5> ls /mnt
[02:47] <bob5> sudo mkdir /mnt/boot
[02:47] <bob5> sudo mkdir /mnt/boot/grub
[02:47] <bob5> sudo grub-mkconfig -o /mnt/boot/grub/grub.cfg
[02:54] <bob5> sudo umount /dev/sda1
[02:54] <bob5> sudo mount /dev/sda2 /mnt
[02:54] <bob5> sudo mount /dev/sda1 /mnt/boot/efi
[02:54] <bob5> sudo chroot /mnt
[02:55] <bob5> sudo grub-mkconfig -o /boot/efi/boot/grub/grub.cfg
[02:55] <zob> sudo mount /dev/sda1 /mnt/boot/efi
[03:00] <zob> oh I give up
[03:24] <bob5> it could be an usntable psu...
[15:41] <bob58> Any experts in remote hacking BIOS?
[15:47] <tomreyn> bob58: wrong channel
[15:47] <tomreyn> !topic


[17:24] <delair> Hi.. I am new to MAAS and have a basic question that what is the difference between "trusty and precise" boot images
[17:25] <delair> and if somebody can please point to a link where i can read about it .. Thanks
[18:09] <jtv> delair: "precise" is Ubuntu 12.04 LTS, "Precise Pangolin."  And "trusty" is the newer Ubuntu 14.04 LTS, "Trusty Tahr."\


[14:58] <drkokandy> Anyone have plans to attend OLF? I'm going to head down again this year
[15:00] <Unit193> I didn't see you last year.  Another person in the list of people I missed..
[15:00] <drkokandy> :( we'll have to fix that this time if you're able to go!
[15:00] <Unit193> Alas, not this year.
[17:11] <drkokandy> rats
[20:54] <dzho> drkokandy: I'm about 50/50 on whether I'll go or not.
[20:54] <drkokandy> let me know if you decide to go so I can say hello down there
[20:55] <dzho> drkokandy: will do!
[20:56] <drkokandy> awesome :)


[01:09] <poolie> hi spivvo?
[01:21] <spiv> Hi poolie!
[01:21]  * spiv waits for the cold&flu pills to kick in
[03:02] <poolie> hullo there
[03:02] <poolie> oh what a shame
[03:25] <poolie> spiv are you well enough to talk over the gc cycle thing with me
[03:26] <spiv> poolie: probably
[03:26] <poolie> here or phone?
[03:27] <spiv> Here's probably better given the state of my sinuses
[03:27] <poolie> yeah
[03:27] <spiv> I might make the odd unpleasant sound :)
[03:27] <poolie> :)
[03:27] <poolie> so basically, vila implies that we ought to manually use weakrefs between application type objects
[03:27] <poolie> even when we don't want actual weakref type behaviour of "i don't care if it's there or not"
[03:27] <spiv> I do feel like a missed a memo about that somewhere
[03:27] <poolie> me too
[03:28] <poolie> hm
[03:28] <spiv> I don't really know what the justification is, exactly
[03:28] <poolie> so, for example
[03:28] <poolie> if python was not capable _at all_ of dealing with cycles
[03:29] <poolie> we would need a strict design rule about avoiding them, either by this method or something else
[03:29] <poolie> (and i'd mostly prefer the "something else")
[03:29] <poolie> but... is it really that bad?
[03:29] <spiv> I'm sure it probably helps memory be reclaimed sooner, but I'd really like to see some quantification of how much and how soon.
[03:30] <spiv> I guess my big question is: why do we (or at least vila) believe avoiding these cycles is significant benefit?
[03:31] <poolie> yes
[03:31] <spiv> I can certainly imagine it *might* be
[03:31] <poolie> and, secondly
[03:31] <poolie> if that problem exists, are weakrefs the best solution to it?
[03:31] <spiv> And I could also perhaps be sold on an argument that this forces a bit more thoughtfulness about object lifetimes
[03:32] <spiv> Hmm
[03:32] <poolie> i think a design rule of "be thoughtful about object lifetimes" makes sense
[03:32] <spiv> Weakrefs are certainly the most obvious solution :)
[03:32] <poolie> hm
[03:32] <poolie> i think the most obvious solution is to refactor the objects so there are no cycles
[03:32] <poolie> sometimes this is hard
[03:33] <spiv> But I suppose there are other options like splitting apart the objects more — right.
[03:33] <poolie> but, here, having both the branch and the config each point to a lock would do
[03:33] <poolie> and it doesn't seem that hard
[03:33] <poolie> (modulo foreign format and api versioning stuff)
[03:34] <spiv> I'm also not sure if the benefit is meant to be for CPython or some other VM
[03:34] <poolie> right, obviously this will vary by vm quite a lot
[03:34] <spiv> Right.
[03:36] <spiv> (And it wouldn't totally shock me to find that weakrefs cause surprising differences in GC behaviour on some VMs)
[03:36] <poolie> right, or that they make things much slower
[03:37] <poolie> or more precisely access through them may be slower
[03:38] <spiv> So I'm quite looking forward to the mail you asked vila to send, in the hope it answers some of these questions.
[03:40] <poolie> i might send one first
[03:40] <poolie> and he can respond
[03:40] <spiv> More mail == more good!  At least in small doses :)
[03:44] <poolie> lifeless: does that ring any bells with you (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/bazaar/2011q2/072972.html) ?
[03:47] <lifeless> mmm
[03:48] <lifeless> so I think some python implementations are worse than others
[03:48] <lifeless> would you like me to reply to the list ?
[03:48] <poolie> probably yes
[03:49] <poolie> s//yes, unless you'd really rather prefer irc
[03:49] <lifeless> list is fine
[03:49] <lifeless> you pinged me is all :)
[03:57] <poolie> this ws doc is very good :)
[03:58] <lifeless> ?
[04:00] <poolie> your service analysis proposal
[04:00] <lifeless> ah, cool.
[04:00] <lifeless> thanks!
[04:33] <lifeless> poolie: replied to that gc mail
[04:33] <poolie> thanks
[05:24] <spiv> Hmm, what version of testtools does PQM have?
[05:44] <maxb> Hopefully whatever is codified in bzr-landing-dependencies
[05:51] <maxb> http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/php5.html#2011-05-30%2002:58:42.080261 feels potentially transient - can I get a requeue to check?
[05:53] <spiv> maxb: hmm, I suspect it's not, but sure.
[05:54] <spiv> eglibc also has the same issue
[05:54] <maxb> oh
[05:54] <maxb> Whoops, I thought this was a unique new one
[05:55] <spiv> Oh well, requeued anyway, just in case :)
[05:55] <spiv> I think this is a failure revealed by the "remove stale connections from possible_transports" fix
[06:51] <poolie> hi maxb
[06:51] <poolie> ooh nice topic
[06:51] <maxb> :-)
[06:51] <maxb> So, somehow, the UDD importer has sprouted another test failure on natty since the sprint
[06:52] <maxb> It doesn't feel particularly complex, but I've no idea what's changed to cause it to happen now but not then
[06:55] <poolie> hm
[06:57]  * maxb wonders why BzrDir.sprout takes a source_branch argument, and then ignores it
[06:59] <spiv> maxb: it doesn't?
[06:59] <maxb> It certainly seems to in my vim :-)
[06:59] <spiv> Or with less layers of negation: it isn't ignored, it's passed to _find_source_repo
[07:00] <spiv> (in trunk; the code was a little different in 2.3, but still not ignoring source_branch IIRC)
[07:03] <maxb> whoops. too many matches in close proximity, I didn't spot that one
[07:14] <poolie> ok, no more mail for today
[07:31] <spiv> maxb: yep, php5 still fails the same way
[07:32] <maxb> hm
[07:32] <maxb> I have it running locally, and all it has accomplished so far is to make my laptop quite toasty warm to the touch :-)
[07:33] <spiv> maxb: I suspect the possible_transports includes a smart transport that is still in use, or something like that
[07:34] <spiv> Or that a transport that's not safe to re-use there, e.g. you can't pull from a repo (get_stream) and push back to a repo (insert_stream) on the same smart connection at the same time.
[07:35] <spiv> It's interesting to me that it's a condition that's hit so rarely though.
[07:35] <maxb> hm. I wish we had a command "bzr delete-tags-not-in-ancestry"
[07:37] <spiv> maxb: should be easy enough to write that plugin...
[07:38] <maxb> yes. It's more of a case of "Nooooo! Not another mental context switch!" :-)
[07:39] <spiv> As always, it'd be good to know what the pre-existing request is in the TooManyConcurrentRequests traceback
[07:39] <spiv> Hmm,
[07:40] <spiv> I filed a bug about something that would address that a few weeks ago
[07:40] <spiv> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/745477
[07:47] <poolie> :)
[08:02] <vila> hello guys, how are your cycles today ?
[08:02]  * vila ducks
[08:02] <vila> kidding, poolie: I answered your email
[08:03] <vila> in summary: let's not start a jihad against gc cycles, this has never been my intent
[08:09] <vila> spiv: /me blinks, the failure for your start_bzr_subprocess log details was related to testools ?!?!  :-(
[08:21] <poolie> vila, what do you mean by
[08:22] <poolie> " Such discussions tell me that this
[08:22] <poolie> > doesn't work. That is far more concerning that using weakrefs or not to
[08:22] <poolie> > me."
[08:22] <vila> That trying to do minimal implementations to make reviews easier tend to trigger issues unrelated to the proposal slowing down the whole landing
[08:23] <vila> There should be a better way to deal with that
[08:23] <poolie> hm
[08:23] <vila> Either there is an obvious better solution to use and the proposal and that should be done before landing
[08:24] <vila> Or the issue should just be discussed and a new proposal will address it
[08:25] <poolie> hm
[08:25] <poolie> i agree in general
[08:25] <vila> I ran into the case (as a reviewer) with i18n : I can't see an obvious way to address an issue and I tell Naoki: sorry, you can't land this
[08:25] <vila> I feel really bad saying that :-(
[08:25] <poolie> using weakrefs where they're not obviously necessary doesn't seem like the minimal implementation
[08:25] <poolie> this is one case where we can probably land things and continue the conversation
[08:26] <poolie> as i think you have
[08:26] <vila> right, but what do you propose as an alternative, I'm fine doing a followup for that
[08:27] <vila> just tell me "I'd prefer this" not "I don't like that"
[08:27] <poolie> do you know whether weakrefs increment the referents refcount?
[08:27] <vila> the former leaves me with a way to go while the later is just blocking me
[08:27] <poolie> i guess no
[08:27] <vila> ('you' and 'me' being general, not specific)
[08:28] <poolie> well, i think many of your things it's just been "I don't understand this"
[08:28] <vila> so, since the proposal, I had several discussions and I'm not sure anymore weakref is as simple as I thought
[08:29] <poolie> :)
[08:29] <vila> I still think it's less costly than leaving python handle it but... meh, I can live with just a comment saying, hey look, we create a cycle there, gnark gnark, go python have fun
[08:30] <poolie> why do you think that?
[08:30] <vila> think what ? That it's harder for python to break this cycle than to not have to worry about it ?
[08:31] <vila> AIUI python gc will break it, it just requires more work
[08:31] <vila> so 'have fun' == 'go, try harder'
[08:31] <poolie> i can believe it takes more cycles
[08:31] <poolie> is it more, or less, than dealing with the weakref?
[08:32] <vila> my gut feeling is that it will be very surprising that it takes less
[08:33] <vila> the weakref "just" dereferences once
[08:33] <vila> and only for lock/unlock which doesn't occur often either
[08:33] <vila> don't
[08:34] <vila> let's try again
[08:34] <poolie> ok, so it's basically just gut feel
[08:34] <vila> For me, here, using a weakref is as prophylactic as using free(ptr) ; ptr = None
[08:35] <poolie> hm
[08:35] <vila> so I know for sure I won't try to call free again on ptr (free implementations that barf on ptr == NULL (gha NULL not None) should just die)
[08:35] <poolie> sure
[08:36] <poolie> though, today, in C, with valgrind, that code is no longer such a good idea
[08:36] <poolie> or not unambiguously good
[08:36] <poolie> but anyhow
[08:36] <vila> I can change my habit and forget about it
[08:36] <poolie> mm
[08:36] <vila> It would make a bit more happy to understand what problems *you* have with weakref here though...
[08:36] <poolie> i think having one person adding weakrefs out of habit would be bad
[08:37] <poolie> also, relying just on gut feel as to what ought to be faster is pretty unreliable
[08:37] <vila> hmm
[08:37] <vila> And what is your gut feel here ?
[08:38] <poolie> i am trying to avoid making assumptions about how python performs
[08:38] <poolie> i think the reasonable base assumption is that it works as documented, ie unreachable objects will be gc'd
[08:39] <poolie> if we find a particular case where it's slow, let's work out how to fix it
[08:39] <poolie> if we can generalize from evidence that a particular pattern ought to be avoided, great
[08:39] <poolie> i don't think we have that evidence yet so let's just write the simplest thing
[08:39] <vila> haaaa, that I can buy easily, so what you're proposing is to just use self.branch and be done with it !
[08:40] <poolie> yes, of course
[08:40] <poolie> sorry if that wasn't clear
[08:40] <vila> gee, no it wasn't
[08:40] <vila> but s/wasn't clear/vila didn't get it/ :)
[08:40] <spiv> vila: I replied to your mail
[08:41] <spiv> vila: to add to the conversation in here, I wouldn't assume that weakrefs are necessarily less work for the GC implementation than a regular reference.  They're certainly *different* work.
[08:43] <spiv> vila: and yes, +1 to just ignoring cycles and letting Python take care of garbage collecting them.
[08:43] <vila> right, so basically we don't know, I'd be happy to write tests so we all get a better understanding but I believe this is not a priority
[08:43] <spiv> Right
[08:43] <poolie> no, it's really not
[08:43] <vila> s/believe/damn well know/
[08:43] <spiv> If we had infinite spare time I'd be curious to know how CPython copes with e.g. 10000s of weakrefs
[08:44] <spiv> And of course there's the runtime cost in our code of resolving the weakref.ref instance to the actual object
[08:45] <vila> yup, I start to realize weakref *implementation* doesn't match my mental model which roughly was more along the lines of: takes a ref but don't increment the refcount
[08:45] <spiv> Right, the implementation has to be more complex than that
[08:45] <poolie> so
[08:45] <poolie> fewer lines of code, faster reviews, generally
[08:45] <spiv> So that if e.g. that object is deallocated and a new one allocated at the same memory location the weakref doesn't accidentally hand you the new object
[08:46] <spiv> vila: it may also interest you to know that it took a few releases of CPython before they really worked out all the bugs in how weakrefs interacted with the gc
[08:47] <spiv> vila: there's some interesting comments in gcmodule.c and a .txt file near it in the source with some of the gory details
[08:49] <poolie> so are we all agreed?
[08:54] <awilkins> The default is now urllib2 isn't it? Not curl?
[08:55] <jam> morning all
[08:55] <awilkins> The reason I'm asking is essentially about SOCKS proxy support, in both bzr and ubuntuone-client
[08:56] <poolie> hi jam
[08:56] <awilkins> ubuntuone-client at least uses python-libproxy, which means it can cope with a PAC script, but then does not know what to do about SOCKS proxies. Bazaar does not use python-libproxy, and presumable doesn't know what to do about PAC scripts.
[08:57] <poolie> hm
[08:57] <poolie> requires running arbitrary javascript iirc?
[08:58] <awilkins> Both of them are high-profile Canonical projects, written in Python, so it would seem that they could both benefit from coping with SOCKS and doing it the same way... the personal itch I'm scratching is that I have a PAC script I use to switch proxies at work / home, but it doesn't really work very well with many things that don't support SOCKS
[08:58] <poolie> without checking, i think we do use urllib2 by default
[08:58] <awilkins> poolie, libproxy provides the PAC script runner - ubuntuone-client uses the python binding of this library
[08:58] <poolie> patches to use libproxy would be welcome
[08:59] <awilkins> poolie, I looked at ways of handling socks with urllib2 and they involve monkeypatching it's socket implementation, I think
[09:00] <poolie> :/ probably
[09:00] <poolie> how does u1 do it?
[09:00] <awilkins> Not to say I want to see a switch to curl - it was far more hassle AFAIR
[09:00] <poolie> jelmer: hi?
[09:00] <awilkins> U1 doesn't - it only copes with HTTP proxies
[09:01] <jam> poolie, spiv, vila, jelmer: time for standup?
[09:01] <poolie> yes
[09:01] <poolie> spiv gave his apologies
[09:01] <poolie> also, jr, hopefully
[09:01] <poolie> but jelmer and jr seem to be asleep
[09:01] <Riddell> morning
[09:01] <jam> Riddell: ^^
[09:01] <poolie> ... or, to have adifferent nick to what i thought :)
[09:01] <poolie> hello
[09:02] <Riddell> I'm not asleep, I'm the only one in the mumble chatroom
[09:02] <poolie> touché
[09:02] <vila> hehe
[09:06] <awilkins> I guess you boys will be back in 20 mins or so if you are having a stand-up
[09:06]  * awilkins contemplates monkeypatching sockets
[09:21] <jam> awilkins: I know there was a python-dev discussion about how hard it is to override the socket interface for the http libs
[09:23] <awilkins> jam, A common answer seems to be "PySocksify", which involves patching the whole "socket" implementation
[09:25] <awilkins> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2317849/how-can-i-use-a-socks-4-5-proxy-with-urllib2
[09:26] <awilkins> Does setting socket.socket affect everything, or just the module-local import of socket?
[09:27] <bob2> global
[09:27] <maxb> I'd suggest just using a LD_PRELOAD socksifier
[09:27] <bob2> yes
[09:27] <bob2> tsocks or socksify
[09:27] <maxb> tsocks is what I use
[09:28] <maxb> it has the very useful feature of conditionally socksifying based on destination address
[09:38] <awilkins> I use tsocks also, but it's awkward to use it on things that start up with your session.
[09:39] <awilkins> Like ubuntuone-client
[09:52] <poolie> jam:  oh, i guess in particular, reviewing udd mps too would be good
[09:52] <poolie> i have some alpha code that gives you a tun device that redirects into socks
[09:52] <poolie> i wonder where
[09:53] <vila> jelmer: looms push don't know about lossdy, 1 failure (well 3 times the same really)  http://paste.ubuntu.com/615680/
[09:53] <poolie> https://code.launchpad.net/~mbp/+junk/tunnel-forward
[09:54] <jelmer> vila: I'll have a look - thanks
[09:55] <vila> jelmer: great, thanks to you, the hidden question was: will he look or should I ? :D Not urgent
[09:56] <jelmer> vila: :)
[09:59] <vila> all: false alarm regarding pure python compat, it was just out-of-date extensions
[10:00] <poolie> maybe in july we should try the sip conference system
[10:04] <jelmer> That might be nice; mumble is still flaky here
[10:04] <jelmer> I'll be sure to boot into natty rather than oneiric for next weeks' standup
[10:11] <poolie> wow, oneiric already?
[10:11] <poolie> is it good?
[10:13] <jelmer> It's pretty good, a lot of it is already GNOME3, and it's fairly stable usually
[10:21] <poolie> ok; good night
[10:22] <jelmer> have a good evening, talk to you later
[10:39] <jam> Riddell: I'm back around whenever you are
[10:39] <jam> jelmer: Do you have SIP set up already?
[10:39] <jam> we could try it (I have it set up here, and I know poolie does)
[10:40] <Riddell> I've not used sip
[10:41] <jam> Riddell: I found it reasonably easy to set up ekiga, as we have instructions on the canonical wiki
[10:41] <jam> I used it for the sprint
[10:41] <jam> since paying for 8hrs of phone time would have been bad :)
[10:43] <jelmer> jam: I don't have it set up yet, but I might as well have a look now if we're going to use it later
[10:43] <jam> jelmer: any chance you can kill jelmer_ ?
[10:43] <jam> anyway
[10:43] <jam> jelmer: I think poolie would like to switch, but I don't know any time frame
[10:43] <jam> mumble tends to work better for large groups (IME)
[10:43] <jam> but still has stuff like poor echo cancelation
[10:44] <jam> actually, Skype still has the best echo cancelation of any programs I've used
[10:44] <jelmer> Skype has worked best for me too, both on Ubuntu and Android
[10:45] <jelmer> I find Mumble works reasonably well compared to most SIP apps on Ubuntu, but the Android app is still not quite there yet
[10:46] <Riddell> ah, I need to ask sysadmin for a SIP account first
[10:47] <Riddell> jam: well shall we chat on mumble?
[10:48] <jam> Riddell: mumble's fine for me
[10:48] <jam> and yes, you have to email rt@ to get your voip account
[10:49] <Riddell> jam: you can't hear me?
[10:49] <jam> Riddell: I can't hear you now, it isn't turning your lips read
[10:49] <jam> red
[10:49] <jam> so it isn't getting your "activation" volume, or whatever
[10:50] <Riddell> jam: still no?
[10:50] <Riddell> the icon goes red here
[10:51] <jam> still nothing here
[10:53] <jam> Riddell: I still don't see your lips go red
[10:53] <jam> I can try relogging if it is maybe on my side. but you can hear me, right?
[10:53] <Riddell> jam: no I can't hear you
[10:53] <jam> relogging now
[11:57] <jam> Riddell: can you still hear me?
[11:57] <Riddell> jam: nope
[11:57] <jam> Riddell: ok, I'll reconnect
[11:57] <jam> I can hear you
[12:02] <jam> Riddell: Did I go silent again?
[12:02] <Riddell> yes
[12:02] <jam> :'(
[12:03] <jam> Riddell: do you have another voice program we can try?
[12:03] <Riddell> jam: could try skype
[12:05] <jam> Riddell: see private message
[12:11] <jelmer> jam, vila, Riddell, poolie, spiv: UDD meeting in #ubuntu-meeting for those interested
[12:11] <jam> jelmer: are you sure it is this week? I thought this was the off-week
[12:12] <jelmer> jam: Yep, at least according to the wiki page
[12:15] <jam> mgz: when you get this, I think we just need a live chat about: https://code.launchpad.net/~gz/bzr/lazy_hook_test_cleanup_785054/+merge/61586
[12:15] <jam> I don't think I can just review the patch
[14:36] <sbarcteam> hi guys.
[14:36] <sbarcteam> I have failed to commit into a folder I have write access to with bzr.
[14:37] <sbarcteam> the folder is owned root:root, and I'm committing as another "regular" user.
[14:37] <sbarcteam> BUT
[14:37] <sbarcteam> There are ACLs, and the user can create files/folders inside repository's folder with UNIX shell.
[14:37] <sbarcteam> Is it possible bzr assumes UNIX permission model and avoids trying operations on files/folders owned/permitted badly by "UNIX" convention ?
[14:38] <sbarcteam> I did dig the bzrlib code.,
[14:39] <spiv> sbarcteam: IIRC bzr doesn't check first (in this scenario), it just attempts to create (trusting that the OS will return a permission error if it doesn't have permission, etc).
[14:39] <spiv> sbarcteam: pastebin the error you get?
[14:40] <sbarcteam> the specific operation bzr fails upon is this locking LockDir
[14:40] <sbarcteam> and it gives me some kind of file.
[14:40] <sbarcteam> does lock files creation require special kind of access list entry ?!
[14:42] <spiv> Please, paste the text of the actual error into http://paste.ubuntu.com/.  Perhaps run the command with -Derror to force bzr to give a traceback too.
[14:42] <spiv> That way we can tell which specific filesystem operation is failing.
[14:43] <ScottK> I'm having trouble fixing a mistaken tag.  It seems no matter what I do I get conflicting tags when I try to push the change.  Would someone point me to some documentation about how to handle this (I did what I thought bzr help tag was suggesting)?
[14:44] <spiv> ScottK: 'bzr tags -d $source' is presumably listing a different rev for that tag than 'bzr tags -d $dest'?
[14:45] <spiv> ScottK: either reapply the tag delete/rename/update directly to dest too, or just delete it in dest then push.
[14:52] <ScottK> spiv: Thanks.
[15:31] <mgz> jam: I'm around briefly, but out again shortly. I should be around all tomorrow though.
[15:32] <jam> mgz: either way
[15:32] <vila> spiv: eerk, you're around ! I think I fixed bug #788235 ;)
[15:32] <jam> I'm gone the rest of the wek
[15:32] <jam> week
[15:33] <mgz> okay, let's go over it quickly now
[15:34] <mgz> vila and I discussed it a little a few evenings ago, my real problem is I don't get how hooks are meant to work now
[15:34] <jam> they aren't  (?) :)
[15:34] <vila> hehe
[15:35] <jam> mgz: so is the issue you aren't sure if hook dicts should be completely empty?
[15:35] <jam> or whether we should be able to reset them, or what?
[15:35] <mgz> I'm not sure what work needs to be done to get the level of hook isolation tests expect
[15:36] <mgz> currently the old code iterates over known hook objects and fiddles with their attributes
[15:36] <mgz> and when lazy hooks were added, some (broken) code for emptying and refilling the new _lazy_hooks dict was added
[15:37] <mgz> but when trying to make that code do what it appeared to be wanting to, I found 1) it made no difference in practice and 2) when I tried to test with a new hook point rather than a known one, isolation didn't work at all
[15:38] <vila> 2) is because you didn't register your hook (not hook point)
[15:38] <mgz> I call install_lazy_hook / the other install method
[15:38] <mgz> what else needs doing?
[15:39] <mgz> anyway, apart from some ugliness in the tests, what I'm trying to verify should be pretty clear from the code
[15:39] <vila> the misunderstandings are because we tend to call hooks what the code calls hook points (except for lazy_hook which tends to blurry the lines even more)
[15:39] <vila> mgz: have you tried registering your hook ?
[15:39] <mgz> I... don't know what that would look like
[15:40] <vila> I take that as a no then ;)
[15:41] <vila> something like hooks.known_hooks.register_lazy(your_test_module, your_hook, your_hook_class)
[15:42] <mgz> okay, so how do I isolate *that* to the test...
[15:42] <vila> hehe
[15:43] <vila> with a lot of effort ?
[15:44] <jam> mgz: presumably you'll have 2 levels of TestCase, right?
[15:45] <jam> the inner one which actually does some trivial thing, asserting it is isolated
[15:45] <jam> and the outer one as the bzrlib test case
[15:45] <jam> the bzrlib case can register the hook point
[15:45] <jam> and the inner one then fiddles with registering a test-spceific callable
[15:46] <jam> then when the outer one finishes running the inner one, it asserts that everything is cleaned up.
[15:46] <mgz> yup.
[15:46] <mgz> the current tests have an inner case that installs and calls a hook
[15:46] <vila> a hook point
[15:46] <jam> mgz: why is it "_clear_hooks" and "_restoreHooks" one of those is misrepresented :)
[15:46] <vila> but don't install the hook in known_hooks
[15:47] <mgz> installs a hook point and triggers a hook callback
[15:47] <mgz> ...some name cleanup really would help
[15:47] <jam> mgz: I use the terms HookPoint and callback
[15:47] <mgz> then the outer case triggers the hook again, the theory being that the hook callback should then *not* be called
[15:47] <jam> I think the code is a bit confused as well.
[15:49] <mgz> anyway, I'd like this isolation code to just be test.overrideAttr(_mod_hooks, "_dict_where_all_hook_callbacks_live", {})
[15:49] <mgz> but life isn't that simple.
[15:52] <jam> mgz: so are your tests not failing? or failing too much?
[15:52] <mgz> yup, both.
[15:52] <mgz> the lazy one using the lock hooks doesn't fail
[15:53] <mgz> and the new hook point that doesn't get into known_hooks fails by,
[15:53] <mgz> never triggering the callback for lazy installation
[15:54] <mgz> and always triggering the callback for eager installation (ie, doesn't get cleaned up)
[15:54] <mgz> ...I think I have those two the right way round
[15:54] <mgz> so, "hooks not in known_hooks are broken" is a fine answer for those two
[15:55] <mgz> ...would be nice if the code actually asserted that
[15:59] <mgz> anyway, I think I don't want to rewrite the hooks code, so may just delete the bogus tests and the redundant cleanup and see if anything else breaks
[16:04] <mgz> okay, I'm off.
[16:09] <jam> mgz: have a good evening
[16:33] <vila> argh, the new SSD arrived too late :-( The old one died in flames...
[16:35] <maxb> literal flames?
[16:35] <maxb> :-)
[16:39] <fullermd> Probably.  Somebody sent it too many nasty emails, and it committed suicide.
[16:56] <gour> am i right that qbzr is more advanced than bzr-gtk and therefore recommended to be used withing explorer?
[16:58] <gour> i'm familiar with cli using freebsd (and before that linux), but would like to know to recommend right tool for (potential) contributors who are GUI-fans
[16:59] <jelmer> gour: yeah, qbzr is definitely more advanced and better integrated into bzr-explorer
[17:00] <gour> jelmer: thank you
[17:33] <gour> cool, it's possible to convert branch into colbranch :-)
[17:56] <vila> sigh, lots of lossage, all restored except for babune which I will need to restore from a  3 weeks old backup (of course) and some bits I managed to get back from the ashes
[17:57] <vila> now to turn the bits into files...
[18:00] <fullermd> So, that counts as a test failure, right?   8-}
[18:00] <vila> hehe, thanks, I will end on that, couldn't have dream better ending :)
[18:00] <vila> bye folks, have fun !
[18:00] <fullermd> Better hope it's transient, and not repeatable   :p
[22:54] <EM03> how is performance now of the system?
[22:55] <lifeless> good
[22:56] <EM03> i remember it used to be not to good lifeless
[23:04] <lifeless> EM03: sure, it used to be slowed
[23:34] <poolie> hi all


[21:52] <The_LoudSpeaker> wxl: bayya you there?
[21:55] <The_LoudSpeaker> seem to be missing since a few days.
 walter's been around but busy
 he may not be present here but he's around ;)


[00:26] <IdleOne> !guidelines > newb
[05:42] <lotuspsychje> morning to all
[05:42] <lotuspsychje> 13.10 has stopped right? can topic be adjusted in #ubuntu?
[05:44] <valorie> as of today, yes
[05:44] <valorie> I think the netsplits stopped the ops from adjusting that
[05:44] <tsimpson> we may want to give it a day or so before dropping support
[05:44] <lotuspsychje> tnx
[05:44] <tsimpson> time zones and all
[05:44] <valorie> tsimpson: softie!
[05:46] <tsimpson> I'm more squidgy than soft, due to the humidity :)
[05:48] <valorie> heh
[05:49] <valorie> thank goodness it was a bit cooler here today
[05:49] <valorie> (near Seattle WA)
 i dont read websites no more to much wrong infromation
[16:00] <genii> Hm.
[16:00] <bazhang> he wants the official dosbox wiki copy and pasted in channel, I guess
[16:02] <Pici> I'm not sure what he wants, some of the questions felt weird
[16:02] <bazhang> he wants to play 'street rod ' on dosbox
[16:02] <bazhang> he refuses to read a single link
[16:05] <genii> Hm, in #l   "<garethrandall> Does anyone know how to donate to lubuntu? E.g. paypal donations."
[16:12] <bazhang> banforward to #dosbox
[16:19] <IdleOne> poor Pici is not making friends today
[16:19]  * genii feeds Pici more delicious cookies to keep his strength up
[16:19] <bazhang> I was ready to copy and paste at the end there
[16:20] <Pici> He was not very pleasant in PM
[16:21] <bazhang> such surprise
[16:33] <IdleOne> much astonishment
 I need your public IP address of the modem
[16:57] <bazhang> perhaps language barrier
[17:21] <genii> Or perhaps they want to tinker with nmap
[17:53] <bazhang> * [Semen_Dickman] (75ce1c89@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.<IP_ADDRESS>):
[18:36] <phunyguy> ><
[18:36] <Pici> hm?
[18:44] <jbroome> subtle
[18:44] <bazhang> yas
[20:56] <k1l_> oh, no unopaste in #ubuntu
[23:09] <k1l_> the porn-link spoam again


[00:10] <zipperface> zzz
[01:13] <makris> zzzzzzzzz
[01:20] <kris434343> hey guys
[01:22] <kris434343> can anyone read this?
[01:23] <kris434343> hello?
[01:23] <kris434343> hello hello?
[01:23] <qdata> if you see it we see it
[01:24] <kris434343> ah there we go!
[01:24] <kris434343> thanks
[01:24] <qdata> :-)
[08:03] <thingol_> hi everyone, i have a wireless card which lsusb states as "Ralink rt2501/2573" and i'm not able to list it among the network interfaces Wireshark can use to capture packets. Anybody knows what i can do to make it show up ?
[08:58] <lordievader> Good morning.
[09:00] <Obley> how do u resize the weather widgets
[09:00] <Obley> i mean make then small
[09:02] <valorie> on your desktop, or in the panel?
[09:02] <Obley> desktop
[09:02] <Obley> they r big, i want to make them smaller
[09:06] <valorie> when you hover over them, a bar will pop up
[09:07] <valorie> click and drag to the size you want in the little block with arrows in it
[09:07] <valorie> when you are satisfied, click the X and the bar will disappear
[09:08] <valorie> when you want it again, click the little "cashew" in the corner of your desktop and "unlock widgets"
[09:08] <valorie> same if there is no bar when you hover
[09:11] <Obley> valorie so can i make them small
[09:12] <kiko_> hola
[09:12] <valorie> yes, as small or large as you like
[09:13] <valorie> I just installed a clock at random to be sure I was giving you good advice
[09:13] <valorie> I don't often use my desktop anymore
[09:14] <Obley> so how do i make them small
[09:14] <valorie> drag "in"
[09:15] <valorie> towards the center of the widget
[09:15] <Obley> how
[09:15] <lordievader> Some widgets do have a minimum size though.
[09:17] <Obley> i want smaller widgets like windows 7
[09:22] <valorie> dunno, I've never used win7
[09:23] <valorie> all my widgets are in the panel, and when you make the panel larger/smaller, the widgets grow and shrink with it
[09:28] <claycorn2> i have a kblank screen when i boot up is that a bad thing ?
[09:28] <claycorn2> kss
[09:29] <valorie> blank as in black, or blank as in "nothing on the desktop"?
[09:29] <claycorn2> black over the kde screen
[09:29] <claycorn2> i can remove it
[09:30] <claycorn2> its just anoing when i boot up
[09:31] <valorie> what do you mean, you can remove it?
[09:31] <claycorn2> i click on the x to remove it
[09:32] <claycorn2> kinda like a pop up on windows
[09:32] <valorie> I have no clue, sorry
[09:32] <claycorn2> no worries i just click on the x
[09:33] <claycorn2> gets rid of it
[09:34] <claycorn2> val?
[10:15] <dario> buongiorno
[10:19] <dario> \list
[10:22] <dario> buongiorno
[10:22] <dario> \list
[10:23] <dario> !list
[12:23] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[12:29] <nudoge> hi
[12:29] <lordievader> Hey nudoge
[12:29] <nudoge> wazzup?
[12:30] <lordievader> nudoge: Doing good, debugging some js functions that have to do with touch. What about you?
[12:30] <BluesKaj> morning coffee, here
[12:31] <nudoge> makin' doge
[12:32] <BluesKaj> whatever that is :)
[12:34] <nudoge> its a BitCoin
[14:15] <pilotKde> Hello friends!
[14:15] <pilotKde> :)
[14:15] <pilotKde> KUBUNTU for life!
[14:15] <pilotKde> ;)
[14:15] <lordievader> pilotKde: :)
[15:14] <Hello> all
[15:14] <Hello> >.-
[15:16] <lordievader> Hey Hello
[15:49] <FloodBotK1> !netsplit
[15:56] <FloodBotK1> !netsplit
[18:06] <Euclidis> Greetings..
[18:07] <Euclidis> I'm using kde-full packages from the official repository, but, all gtk applications opens under gnome windows. I  would like to use only KDE and kwin, plasma, etc. By other hand, I wouldn't like to remove unity or 'ubuntu-deskto'.. Ia there a way to fix it?
[19:39] <losa88> LOL
[20:20] <ghs> My network wifi in Kubuntu is dropping all the time, and can't return the connection again. Stay appears "Configuring interface". Can someone me help to fix ?
[20:25] <Walex> ghs: perhaps, but it is likely a radio problem.
[21:03] <xxx_> Hello all
[21:04] <xxx_> I wanted to do a clean install of Kubuntu 13.04, but after formating HD and installing only black screen, no grub menu. previously there was Win7 OS. any ideas what to do? Secure boot is not a problem, because there isn't one on this laptop, it was before it.
[21:05] <xxx_> also to mention, it was a laptop with Win7 preinstalled, called OEM I think.
[21:19] <FloodBotK1> !netsplit
[21:58] <westmi> i cant get my mic to work in skype
[21:59] <westmi> kubuntu 12.04
[21:59] <westmi> tthe mic works
[21:59] <westmi> it works just fine
[21:59] <westmi> but just aint workin for skype
[22:00] <westmi> I've been googling and searching for a solution all say
[22:00] <westmi> tday*
[22:01] <westmi> day*
[22:13] <valorie> westmi: check your settings (input) in alsamixer, kmix AND pulseaudio
[22:14] <valorie> somehow skype has hosed one of them
[22:14] <valorie> it doesn't play nice with linux sound
[22:18] <westmi> how do i check pulseaudio?
[22:19] <westmi> i cant find any gui for pulseaudio
[22:19] <westmi> or any kind of adjustments for pulseaudio
[22:21] <valorie> there is pulseaudio volume control
[22:21] <westmi> The mic works, I can hear it workin, but all my research points to pulseaudio settings, and i cant find any way to change the settings for pulseaudio
[22:21] <valorie> and there is veromix widget
[22:21] <westmi> where would i find that?
[22:22] <valorie> click the cashew, and Add Widget
[22:22] <valorie> search for veromix
[22:24] <westmi> this is a desktop widget?
[22:24] <valorie> westmi: http://pastebin.kde.org/pueptjnh7
[22:24] <valorie> pavucontrol is the name I was looking for
[22:24] <valorie> that's the best
[22:28] <westmi> i'm sorry, that is not any help......
[22:30] <valorie> not the input devices tab?
[22:30] <westmi> now you lost me completely
[22:30] <valorie> in pavucontrol
[22:31] <valorie> there is an input devices tab
[22:31] <westmi> your not understanding me
[22:32] <westmi> I dont know what pavucontrol is, or where to find it,etc
[22:32] <valorie> how do you get new software, westmi?
[22:33] <valorie> do you use muon, or synaptic, or the command line?
[22:33] <westmi> muon
[22:33] <valorie> ok, in muon search for pavucontrol
[22:33] <westmi> or the command line
[22:34] <valorie> if you prefer the cli, it's faster: sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade && sudo apt-get install pavucontrol
[22:34] <valorie> then everything will be all up to date
[22:38] <westmi> upgrade? i really dont want to do that, do i?
[22:39] <westmi> no, i want to stick with 12.04
[22:39] <westmi> i dont want to upgrade to 12.10
[22:52] <valorie> grrr, why did s/he leave
[22:52] <adilalpman> hi everyone
[22:52] <adilalpman> i have just bought a new toshiba laptop and i have a problem with ubuntu & windows multiboot option in it
[22:59] <valorie> adilalpman: because of uefi?
[22:59] <valorie> !efi
[23:02] <adilalpman> my uefi is disabled now
[23:53] <MangaKaDenza> guise
[23:53] <MangaKaDenza> can I do an LFS thing that uses ubuntu repos?


[01:30] <Mead> anyone here?
[01:30] <wxl> no
 O.O
[02:16] <Mead> I'm having issue getting a network interface up and running, can anyone help me?
[02:18] <Mead> I've placed my ethernet interface's "method" as "shared to other computers" but it stays disconnected.
[03:23] <pZombie> hello friends
[03:23] <pZombie> i think i found a minor bug with the sound volume settings
[03:25] <pZombie> when you move the volume in firefox playing a youtube video for example, from full to zero and back, it does not actually set it back to 100% in the volume control  under the playback tab -> firefox audiostream
[03:25] <pZombie> hm, strannge, this time it did
[03:25] <pZombie> but it is not always the case
[03:26] <pZombie> Also, what is the reason to use openbox as windows manager when jwm is much faster/snappier? What does openbox have that jwm does not?
[03:28] <pZombie> and to my surprise just works perfectly in combination with the standard lubuntu setup, simply by changing openbox to jwm in the according config file
[03:34] <pZombie> the volume thingy seems to be intended as it appears
[03:34] <pZombie> different videos get different volume settings for their audiostreams
[14:51] <zap0> startup splash is taking for EVER!    is there some way to see what is going on?
[14:51] <Thedarkb> I just mash keys until it disappears personally.
[14:52] <zap0> 5 dots .. 4 lit..  it's been like 8 mins
[14:52] <Thedarkb> Sounds locked up.
[14:52] <zap0> it's never taken this long to boot
[14:52] <Thedarkb> Any disk activity?
[14:53] <zap0> does not sound like it.
[14:53] <Thedarkb> It's definitely locked up.
[14:53] <Thedarkb> Not much you can do
[14:55] <zap0> hard reset.
[14:56] <zap0> now it's not booting... instead i get a busybox command prompt
[14:56] <zap0> wtf do i type now?
[14:58] <Thedarkb> busybox?
[14:58] <zap0> yeah
[14:59] <zap0> seems to be some recovery mode
[15:00] <zap0> it's like ram-only OS
[15:00] <zap0> looks like it thinks there is so issue with the HDD
[15:00] <Thedarkb> Are you sure it's not GRUB rescue or something?
[15:00] <zap0> is some/
[15:00] <Thedarkb> I didn't know Lubuntu had a busybox recovery thing.
[15:00] <zap0> nor did i (until now!)
[15:01] <zap0> i can do:   cd /dev/
[15:01] <zap0> and there is a sda  and sda1    in there
[15:01] <Thedarkb> Can you mount sda?
[15:01] <zap0> is there some command i can run to verify/check  that drive
[15:06] <Thedarkb> I don't know.
[15:26] <zap0> now it keeps just going back to this busybox prompt :(
[15:39] <zap0> how do i mount it?
[15:55] <Thedarkb> zap0, mount /dev/sda1 /mnt/drive
[15:56] <zap0> that did seem to work well... said something about a  e??fsck   utility that i shoudl run
[15:57] <zap0> that's been running about 10mins... killing about 100 inodes a sec.
[16:48] <zap0> still killing inodes
[17:21] <Thedarkb> I'm having trouble with timidity
[17:21] <wxl> i'd swim upstream to #ubuntu or ##linux on that one
[17:22] <wxl> or maybe even ping the ubuntu studio folks
[17:22] <wxl> there's probably a linux audio channel somewhere, too..
[17:23] <Thedarkb> There's a post with the "solved" tag about the same problem but I can't access it because it's pre-2008 and the ubuntu forum admins are apparently dickheads.
[17:24] <wxl> that seems like a rather illogical conclusion and one i'm sure is founded on the fact that you failed to contact them?
[17:25] <Thedarkb> I need to make an account to see pre-2008 forum posts for the reason that "Hello, Unregistered You are browsing a READ ONLY archive of the main support categories pre 4/21/2008. You will not be able to post or reply any threads in this section.
[17:25] <Thedarkb> Be aware that information contained here may be outdated, and could cause irreparable damage to your install - read and follow these threads at your own risk. "
[17:25] <Thedarkb> You need an account to look at this dangerous information
[17:25] <wxl> so
[17:25] <wxl> get
[17:25] <wxl> an
[17:25] <wxl> account
[17:25] <wxl> seems hard, i know
[17:26] <Thedarkb> Fine
[17:26] <Thedarkb> It just bothers me.
[17:26] <wxl> yeah, well, that's a personal problem
[17:26] <Thedarkb> In the same way it bothered me when Firefox removed the checkbox to disable JS
[17:51] <ChunkzZ1> Thedarkb: get a better system, stop using old crap. :)
[17:51] <Thedarkb> This machine here has a Core 2 Duo, so it's not THAT bad.
[17:52] <Thedarkb> My X40 I will concede is awful.
[17:52] <ChunkzZ1> 256mb ram though...
[17:52] <Thedarkb> Client: HexChat 2.12.4 • OS: Ubuntu "artful" 17.10 • CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU     P8600  @ 2.40GHz (1.60GHz) • Memory: Physical: 5.6 GiB Total (4.2 GiB Free) Swap: 1.9 GiB Total (1.9 GiB Free) • Storage: 124.3 GB / 161.0 GB (36.7 GB Free) • VGA: Intel Corporation Mobile 4 Series Chipset Integrated Graphics Controller @ Intel Corporation Mobile 4 Series Chipset Memory Contr
[17:52] <Thedarkb> oller Hub • Uptime: 1d 23h 45m 43s
[17:52] <Thedarkb> 6 gigs here.
[17:52] <Thedarkb-X40> 256mb here
[17:53] <Thedarkb-X40> The GPU takes a big chunk too.
[17:53] <ChunkzZ1> Lol.
[17:53] <Thedarkb-X40> I'm waiting on some brand new PC2700 RAM from China.
[17:54] <ChunkzZ1> Yeah, 256mb is simply not enough.
[17:54] <Thedarkb-X40> Honestly the CPU is the biggest bottleneck.
[17:54] <ChunkzZ1> I have 2gb ram on a £40 system.
[17:55] <Thedarkb-X40> I don't use LXDE, so I usually have ~200mb free at idle.
[17:55] <Thedarkb-X40> I use Openbox+fbpanel
[17:55] <Thedarkb-X40> This was €5.50 on ebay.
[17:56] <ChunkzZ1> Why are you here then?
[17:57] <Thedarkb-X40> Still says Lubuntu on my splash screen.
[17:57] <Thedarkb-X40> LXDE has gotten a little bit bloated.
[17:57] <Thedarkb-X40> at idle on LXDE, there's only 90mb free.
 @Thedarkb-X40, That's because you only have 256 MB of RAM 😜
[19:09] <Thedarkb-X40> It's enough.
[19:10] <wxl> yes, well, it's enough to survive on bread and water, too
[19:11] <Thedarkb-X40> it's enough for my own particular use case*
 My point is, don't idly say it's bloated 😜
[19:13] <Thedarkb-X40> I just think it uses too much RAM for what it is.
 That's your opinion, and it's not particularly constructive.
[19:13] <Thedarkb-X40> fbpanel has very similar functionality to LXPanel but it uses 1/3rd the RAM.
[19:13] <Thedarkb-X40> Fair enough.
[19:53] <vegombrei> hi, im new to lubuntu, how do i get it to read external drives if they are ntfs partition? is there a software i could sudo apt-get so that i would be able to read ntfs ?
[19:53] <Thedarkb> You should be able to read it as it is.
[19:54] <wxl> !ntfs
[19:55] <wxl> !ntfs-3g
[19:57] <wxl> "The ntfs-3g driver is pre-installed in all recent versions of Ubuntu and healthy NTFS devices should work out of the box without further configuration"
[20:04]  * vegombrei turns out the hdd is busted :(
[20:04] <wxl> as i've said many times before: linux can do a lot of things, but it can't fix broken
[20:07] <wxl> you might be able to use dd to get some data off of it but if the read head has dived into the platter, you probably won't have a lot of luck
[20:10] <Thedarkb> vegombrei, Busted in what way?
[20:11] <Thedarkb> Is it doing the clicking thing when you plug it in?


[18:48]  * tsimonq2 is currently git bisecting bug 1829805
[18:49] <tsimonq2> I'll try my best to work out the problem, but it'd be cool to get a second set of eyes from someone who regularly does kernel stuff. :)
[19:02] <TJ-> tsimonq2: are you still working on the bug?
[19:07] <tsimonq2> TJ-: Yes.
[19:07] <tsimonq2> It just takes a while for a kernel to build, and I've been at SELF.
[19:08] <TJ-> no need; see my about-to-be posted comment to the bug
[19:08] <tsimonq2> Oh?
[19:08] <tsimonq2> So, why does installing the Disco kernel work fine? :/
[19:09] <TJ-> tsimonq2: not sure, but I'd start with investigating from the initramfs to identify the problem
[19:10] <tsimonq2> That's a weird one.
[19:11] <tsimonq2> TJ-: And it only happens with Lubuntu.
[19:11] <tsimonq2> Harumph.
[19:11] <TJ-> tsimonq2: I'm fetching the lubuntu image so I can test here in QEMU too
[19:11] <tsimonq2> Thanks.
[19:12] <TJ-> I've dealt with lots of these unable to mount root-fs using the break=XXXX method
[19:12] <TJ-> 22 minutes to fetch; I miss the days of CD image!
[19:12] <tsimonq2> haha :)
[19:13] <TJ-> You should have fixed it by the time I've got the image :)
[19:13] <tsimonq2> TJ-: We do have a new release of Calamares that should be in this daily.
[19:13] <tsimonq2> Watch that be the solution. :P
[19:14] <tsimonq2> I trust your judgement though, because last time you were right.
[19:14] <tsimonq2> (I'd like to document whatever the solution is, though.)
[19:14] <TJ-> remind me what Calamares is? installer?
[19:14] <tsimonq2> Yeah.
[19:14] <tsimonq2> It replaces Ubiquity.
[19:15] <TJ-> tsimonq2: are you saying the current daily may be fixed?
[19:18] <TJ-> tsimonq2: is there a lubuntu-dev channel for dealing with this?


[00:00] <kereltis> I sent an introductory mail to the mailing list
[02:05] <sgclark> blah, wxl do you moderate our maillist?
[02:08] <sgclark> nm
[03:43] <wxl> sgclark: why, you want to help moderate? :)
[03:43] <sgclark> lol sure :)
[03:44] <sgclark> I need to remember which email I used though :(
[03:44] <sgclark> I keep getting awaiting moderation
[03:44] <wxl> okie hold on
[03:44] <sgclark> I am me! I sear it!
[03:44] <sgclark> swear*
[03:45] <wxl> i thought i added that one email to the accept list
[03:45] <sgclark> should be either<EMAIL_ADDRESS>or<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[03:46] <sgclark> I had to switch to thunderbird, kmail failed me :(
[03:46] <wxl> bummer
[03:46] <sgclark> hopefully their new work on akonadi will fix things in the future
[03:46] <wxl> tho i use thunderbird at work too
[03:46] <wxl> and recommend it in general
[03:47] <sgclark> but for now, I do like thunderbird anyway, so no biggie
[03:47] <sgclark> yeah just I wrote like 75 of the documentation for kmail lol
[03:48] <wxl> hahahah
[03:48] <sgclark> 75%.. sheesh darn keyboard!
[03:48] <wxl> you need a mechancial
[03:50]  * sgclark grumbles at the piece of code that is not behaving
[03:50] <sgclark> have I mentioned I am not a big fan of Windows lol
[03:56] <wxl> sgclark: use thunderbird identities to make it appear you're sending from<EMAIL_ADDRESS>even though you're actually using imap/pop3 and smmtp via some other email
[03:56] <wxl> i.e. set up the tbird account as the one kubuntu.org forwards to, but then edit its identity
[03:56] <sgclark> wxl: that was it :) thanks!
[03:56] <wxl> ask me if you need further help with thunderbird. i've been using it for a looooooooooooooong time
[03:57] <sgclark> well let me test, inc mail to group!
[03:57] <wxl> yay
[03:59] <sgclark> cool so far it got past my locked up smtp server lol
[03:59] <wxl> hehehe
[04:06] <sgclark> cool all working :) thanks!
[04:06] <wxl> np!
[04:07] <wxl> fwiw i use thunderbird-trunk on a production machine
[04:07] <wxl> living dangerously, i know!
[04:08] <sgclark> lol yes I live on the edge day to day
[04:09] <wxl> i also use the development versions of firefox and chrome
[04:09] <wxl> but i like my LTS kubuntu ☺
[04:12] <sgclark> :)
[04:33] <kereltis> I'm always pulled between Ubuntu and Kubuntu, I really like both.
[04:33] <wxl> hey again che :)
[04:33] <wxl> i'm a lubuntu guy most times
[04:33] <wxl> otherwise, i'm all about kubuntu
[04:34] <wxl> though xubuntu has grown up quite a bit
[04:34] <wxl> ubuntu's nice on a phone :)
[04:38] <sgclark> hiyas :)
[04:39] <sgclark> well I have a special love for kubuntu lol
[04:39] <sgclark> <-- kubuntu developer
[04:40] <kereltis> I'm loving the look of KDE 5
[04:41] <sgclark> yep, me too :)
[04:41] <sgclark> lots of work it is giving me though lol
[04:42] <sgclark> love seeing the improvements though as stuff rolls out, great fun
[04:44] <sgclark> but I am done fighting with code for the evening and need to veg out at the tube. See you all tomorrow :)
[04:44] <kereltis> One of the things I love about using Linux is watching the evolution of the software, it's pretty incredible to watch a desktop evolve and change. :-)
[04:44] <kereltis> Have a good night
[04:44] <sgclark> oh yes
[04:44] <sgclark> agreed
[15:45] <sgclark> wxl: how do we handle spam that actually gets through. If there is even a way..
[16:26] <wxl> sgclark: oh did you see some?
[16:26] <sgclark> wxl: yeah with a doc attachment.. :(
[16:26] <sgclark> thankfully I know better than to open attachments lol
[16:27] <wxl> oh noes
[16:27] <wxl> why didn't i get it?
[16:27] <wxl> maybe gmail filtered it out
[16:28] <sgclark> maybe, I am still training my new email server, so I still see lots of spam :(
[16:28] <wxl> i don'
[16:28] <wxl> t see any spam
[16:28] <wxl> is this recent?
[16:28] <sgclark> hmm, don't they have to be a member to post?
[16:28] <wxl> they do
[16:29] <wxl> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-or/2015-March/date.html
[16:31] <sgclark> ok well that is bazaar, I have one . maybe because I am moderator? and it did not actually get to list? I am so confused lol
[16:31] <wxl> um want to forward to me?
[16:32] <wxl> and nice freudian slip there wiht the bazaar ☺
[16:32] <sgclark> k
[16:32] <sgclark> hehe
[16:33] <sgclark> sent, afk a few
[16:37] <wxl> sgclark: yeah my gmail filtered it out
[16:37] <wxl> it didn't get to the list tho
[16:38] <wxl> it seems to be directed directly to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[16:38] <wxl> …which i'm not sure why you're getting as a mod, but oh well
[16:42] <sgclark> no worries
[16:43] <sgclark> was just afraid it got to list, but it didn't so I am happy
[16:43] <wxl> yeah just check the archives if you're worried about that sort of thing
[16:43] <sgclark> k
[16:43] <wxl> mailman generates two emails: listname-owner and listname-bounces that you'll hear from a bit
[16:44] <wxl> as long as it doesn't go to listname, you're good to go :)
[16:44] <sgclark> k
[16:44] <sgclark> :)
[16:45] <wxl> you'll also get notifications of subscriptions and unsubscriptions
[16:45] <wxl> basically i ignore everything that's not an actual call for moderation
[16:45] <sgclark> yeah seen a few of those
[16:45] <sgclark> k
[16:47] <wxl> bah haven't heard back from the hotel yet
[16:47] <wxl> that's not good
[16:48] <sgclark> :(
[18:02] <wxl> no starch books on sale for pi day
[19:00] <wxl> hi wulfie
[20:44] <kereltis> Interesting, on one of our machines we have Ubuntu 14.04.2 (3.16 Kernel) with an AMD Radeon HD 6870 graphics card using the open source gallium driver. The majority of games run great, even better than the proprietary driver.
[20:48] <kereltis> However, we got a copy of Dying Light on Steam, it loads with a black screen and then crashes to desktop. So I dropped their support a note including a sysinfo file and error logs. This morning they got back to me telling me my problem is I don't have any graphic card drivers. Really? I can launch every other game including Skyrim in wine with the HD graphics pack but I don't have any graphics drivers?
[20:50] <wxl> that's weird
[20:50] <wxl> maybe they need some better support
[20:50] <wxl> but speaking of graphics, both radeon and nvidia are top contributors to the kernel
[20:51] <wxl> i wonder if they're just providing access for their proprietary drivers
[20:51] <kereltis> Yeah, the Radeon HD 6870 runs great with the gallium driver
[20:51] <wxl> but if they're contributing open source drivers, i wonder what the value in the proprietary ones even are
[20:58] <kereltis> That's the big discussion in Linux gaming right now. AMD are in trouble, they can't match Intel with CPUs, they do however produce very good graphics cards and with SteamOS around the corner it would make a lot of sense for them to work a lot more with the open source community. Their proprietary drivers are not the best and in a lot of ways the gallium drivers beat them, with a little more cooperation from AMD they could beat the
[20:58] <kereltis>  Nvidia drivers.