[00:01] <ali1234> wait so the fork of ayatana is called ayatana? i'm confused
[00:03] <bluesabre> :)
[00:29] <Unit193> ali1234: The Ubuntu versions are just 'indicators', though it was referred to as 'Ayatana'.  The actual fork is named 'ayatana' and that's the internal name as well.  They're entirely compatible right now, so patches like http://paste.openstack.org/show/fW34wv9fff7zKbsxi4dW work.
[00:31] <Unit193> For the past several years, the libs in Ubuntu have been rolling from git, no actual releases since ~2016 so convincing upstreams and other distros to pick it up was a bit annoying.  Now, Debian has pretty much switched to the ayatana stack so all derivs benefit as well (Except Ubuntu, which reverts it all in main.)  remmina and nm-applet as well as others have upstream support to select which
[00:31] <Unit193> stack or autodetect.
[00:32] <Eickmeyer> A lot of them have gone to kstatusindicator.
[00:33] <Unit193> ....No, a lot of KDE/Qt things have since it's built-in, we're talking GTK here.
[00:35] <Unit193> Unfortunately, for GTK you used to only have Ubuntu's libs for that stuff.
[00:36] <Unit193> For Ubuntu/GNOME users, this is even more useful as trayicons have been deprecated and the topicons (or whatever it is) is under bitrot, whereas the gnome-shell extension to re-add Indicator support is currently maintained.
[00:37] <Unit193> Though since you say Canonical might no longer be interested in such things, I wonder if https://github.com/ubuntu/gnome-shell-extension-appindicator will still remain maintained.
[00:37] <Unit193> ...Anywho.
[00:37] <ali1234> what is the ayatana position on text next to icons?
[00:39] <ali1234> i mean, which version of the spec are they following?
[00:41] <Unit193> Not sure.
[00:41] <Eickmeyer> Unit193: That's what I'm talking about. gnome-shell-extension-appindicator makes use of kstatusindicator in addition to other methods.
[00:42] <Unit193> ...OK?
[00:42] <Eickmeyer> So, no, it's not going anywhere.
[00:44] <Unit193> Right, up until I specifically mentioned it, I wasn't talking about gnome-shell.
[00:46] <Eickmeyer> Well, Canonical is interested in gnome-shell, since their Ubuntu desktop uses that extension by default, they don't want it going anywhere. But, the older Unity indicators are being depricated.
[00:46] <Eickmeyer> Or anything that takes advantage of that method.
[00:47] <Unit193> And when you say 'indicators', you mena indicator-application type things or libappindicator3?
[00:48] <Eickmeyer> indicator-application.
[00:48] <Eickmeyer> so confusing...
[00:48] <Unit193> Yeah no, I'm talking about the actual libraries, libappindicator.
[00:49] <Eickmeyer> Oh, no. The libraries are sticking around.
[00:49] <Unit193> Though, getting rid of indicator-application is very good.
[00:49] <Unit193> That's unfortunate.
[00:55] <Unit193> Eickmeyer: Just about everything from above is about the libraries.
[00:55] <Eickmeyer> Yeah, it was a misunderstanding. I was referring to the indicator-* stuff.
[05:38] <ochosi> bluesabre: apologies that i couldnt make it yesterday, will try to catch up by reading tonight
[05:40] <Unit193> ochosi: It's OK, we assigned everything to you.
[06:00] <ochosi> lol thanks :)
[11:20] <flocculant> bluesabre: and I will carry on reporting things when I find them :)
[11:20] <flocculant> thanks for the thanks peeps too :D
[11:27] <Unit193> Did we already thank you for sticking around even when you're not sticking around? :D
[11:38] <flocculant> Unit193: :D
[11:38] <flocculant> different now - I'm just this guy :D
[11:49] <flocculant> Unit193: when the ppa's have new stuff perhaps you could let me know <- or bluesabre :p
[12:04] <bluesabre> flocculant: will dooooo
[22:25] <TJ-> anyone have expertise around xfce4-power-manager? Re-hit by bug #1759950 on uprading several laptops to 19.04 from 18.04
[22:30] <brainwash> TJ-: you tried without light-locker?
[22:33] <TJ-> I've just solved it :D
[22:33] <TJ-> It's a fight with logind; changing default settings for logind
[22:37] <TJ-> I wish I'd discovered that when I first reported it. wasted days tracking light-locker!
[22:37] <TJ-> Is there a way to tag a bug as a task for Xubuntu specifically?
[22:51] <bluesabre> TJ-: report the bug against xubuntu-default-settings will do :)
[23:02] <TJ-> bluesabre: thanks ... I've tracked it down to a 2105 commit in x-p-m that integrated light-locker/logind support
[23:04] <Unit193> Sounds more like a xfce4-power-manager bug.
[23:04] <TJ-> Unit193: ^^^ I've tracked it down to a commit in x-p-m
[23:05] <Unit193> Yes, I can see that, given the text was right above mine.
[23:05] <TJ-> but that commit is pretty invasive/large so hard to reason about what is going on
[23:05] <Unit193> Debian #840570 looks fun...
[23:10] <TJ-> this looks to be related to the underlying "logind-handle-lid-switch" value, which is "true". I wonder if disabling that and leaving logind's properties alone would work. Time to test
[23:11] <TJ-> Unit193: I get that too; I've always read it as a left-over from closing the lid because policykit doesn't allow it - I do recall some time ago altering the policykit settings one one system to allow it. I'd forgotten I'd done that until you mentioned that bug
[23:19] <TJ-> Here it is on 19.04: org.fredesktop.login1.suspend  https://i.imgur.com/H0xSzW2.jpg
[23:24] <TJ-> yes; I think this is the policy I added: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/9BJ793XSj6/
[23:35] <Unit193> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=758771 sounds like that one.


[00:03] <wgrant> sergio-br2: The default quota is 2GiB, and it can be increased where the space usage is reasonable.
[00:04] <sergio-br2> hum, is there any limit?
[00:04] <sergio-br2> *are
[00:13] <mwhudson> when i build a package in my ppa, do you need to wait for publication before you can build something else that build-deps on it?
[00:13] <wgrant> mwhudson: Yes.
[00:14] <StevenK> But the PPA publisher is faster and runs more often than the main archive publisher
[00:14] <wgrant> sergio-br2: There is no specific limit. It is judged on a case-by-case basis.
[00:14] <wgrant> StevenK: That's actually not true any more.
[00:14] <StevenK> Awww
[00:14] <wgrant> They are often around the same frequency nowadays.
[00:14] <StevenK> It was when I left. :-)
[00:15] <mwhudson> is that just because there are so many ppas now?
[00:15] <wgrant> The per-archive stuff has been optimised, so the primary archive publisher is much faster, but there are a lot of PPAs considered in every run.
[00:17] <mwhudson> i guess i really really should use pbuilder more to make sure my build deps are right :-)
[00:17] <wgrant> sbuild, but yes.
[00:17] <mwhudson> wee
[00:17] <mwhudson> well
[00:17] <mwhudson> "something local"
[00:18] <sergio-br2> "It is judged on a case-by-case basis." oh, so maybe a PPA using 5 GB can be cut off?
[00:19] <wgrant> sergio-br2: A PPA can't use 5GiB without being previously approved to do so.
[00:19] <wgrant> We approve quota increases on a case-by-case basis, judging whether the PPA is making good use of our resources.
[00:19] <sergio-br2> humm
[00:19] <sergio-br2> good use == many downloads?
[00:20] <wgrant> That's one major criterion, yes.
[00:20] <sergio-br2> my libretro ppa has 2.8
[00:21] <sergio-br2> those mame cores occupies lot of space
[00:27] <sergio-br2> wgrant, how can I see how many downloads a ppa had?
[00:29] <wgrant> sergio-br2: http://askubuntu.com/questions/296197/how-to-find-out-the-package-download-count-from-a-ppa
[00:32] <sergio-br2> that python script right?
[00:32] <wgrant> Yes.
[00:34] <sergio-br2> nice, it's working
[00:35] <sergio-br2> meh, nobody downloading dolphin-emu-master, and it's since february
[00:43] <sergio-br2> is it possible to ask i386 & amd64 together in this script?
[00:46] <wgrant> Not directly.
[00:46] <sergio-br2> wgrant, that python script shows what? per month?
[00:47] <wgrant> sergio-br2: It shows the total number of downloads for each currently published version.
[00:47] <sergio-br2> :o
[00:49] <sergio-br2> each counts twice if I download from the same IP ?
[00:52] <wgrant> Yes.
[00:58] <sergio-br2> nobody uses my ppas :(
[00:58] <sergio-br2> heh
[00:58] <sergio-br2> only libretro and ppsspp
[01:01] <DalekSec> So, can one delete a git repo? :P
[01:03] <blr> DalekSec: why would you want to do something so rash? :) (that's coming)
[01:03] <DalekSec> Ah, good to know.   The odd thing comes here, at Launchpad it says they do are complete...
[09:26] <metallic> How comes that?
[09:27] <metallic> Maybe the packaged version in the repositories is not updated?
[09:41] <wgrant> metallic: SoundConverter is in universe, so it doesn't go through normal translation mechanisms -- translations are just taken from the upstream project.
[09:41] <wgrant> If there are new translations in Launchpad that upstream should include, you should talk to the upstream maintainer.
[10:00] <cjwatson> DalekSec,wgrant: um, deletion should be there already.  There's a "Delete repository" link in the top right of the code page for the repository.
[10:00] <cjwatson> That rolled out yesterday.
[10:01] <wgrant> Yeah, I realised that when I requested today's deployment!
[10:01] <blr> ah nice cjwatson
[10:03] <cjwatson> (also .lp_delete() or so on the API)
[10:03] <cjwatson> right, time to go :)
[10:10] <Odd_Bloke> https://launchpad.net/~cloud-images-release-managers/+livefs/ubuntu/wily/docker-ubuntu-core/+build/28138 isn't getting built; any ideas why?
[10:10] <Odd_Bloke> Builds for all the other architectures are fine.
[10:11] <Odd_Bloke> But the last ppc64el one also got stuck in limbo for a few days.
[10:13] <metallic> wgrant: sorry, I was out. So are you telling me to pick up the translations from the project's site?
[10:14] <metallic> That's not possible since the project's homepage redirects to launchpad
[10:14] <metallic> :/
[10:14] <wgrant> Oh, I didn't realise they'd moved to Launchpad.
[10:14] <wgrant> I used to maintain soundconverter in Ubuntu and Debian many years ago, and it wasn't on LP back then.
[10:15] <wgrant> metallic: Ubuntu's package just uses the translations that were included in the upstream release.
[10:16] <metallic> wgrant: forgive my ignorance but... By "upstream" what do you mean?
[10:17] <wgrant> metallic: Ah, it's common distribution terminology. "Upstream" means the soundconverter project itself.
[10:17] <clivejo> metallic: this might help - https://help.launchpad.net/Translations
[10:17] <wgrant> The code then flows "downstream" to Debian, and from there further downstream to Ubuntu.
[10:18] <wgrant> So Ubuntu 15.04 has SoundConverter 2.1.5, and whichever translations that release included.
[10:18] <metallic> mmm... Ok, I get it now
[10:18] <wgrant> The translations will only be updated when the package is updated to eg. SoundConverter 2.2
[10:20] <metallic> wgrant: Therefore it is a matter of the package in the repository?
[10:21] <clivejo> metallic: have you a LP account?
[10:21] <metallic> yes :)
[10:21] <clivejo> have you set your prefered language?
[10:21] <metallic> yes
[10:21] <clivejo> try this page
[10:21] <clivejo> https://translations.launchpad.net/soundconverter/trunk/+translations
[10:21] <metallic> clivejo: I think you missed part of the conversation :/
[10:22] <wgrant> The Catalan and Spanish translations are complete in Launchpad.
[10:22] <wgrant> Two things need to happen for Ubuntu users to see the complete translations:
[10:22] <metallic> exactly, they are complete in Launchpad but the program shows incomplete translations
[10:22] <wgrant>  1) kassoulet (the SoundConverter developer) needs to incorporate them into a SoundConverter release.
[10:23] <wgrant>  2) The Debian maintainer or an Ubuntu developer needs to incorporate that SoundConverter release into a package.
[10:23] <wgrant> If you're running Ubuntu 15.04, #2 hasn't happened yet. #1 may have.
[10:23] <metallic> 2) is what I was talking about :)
[10:24] <metallic> 1) may be harder since a release depends on many other factors of the software, but yes I was thinking of a package issue
[10:26] <wgrant> It is also possible for the package maintainer to directly incorporate the new translations, but that's unlikely with an active upstream project.
[10:26] <metallic> wgrant: the latest version is 2.1.5 and the version I have in the repositories of Trisquel is 2.0.4
[10:26] <metallic> that figures
[10:27] <wgrant> Ah, so you'll want to talk to the Trisquel package maintainers in that case.
[10:28] <metallic> Trisquel repositories are supposed to be made up of ubuntu's without non-free
[10:28] <metallic> software
[10:28] <wgrant> Right, as I recall the latest Trisquel release is based on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS.
[10:28] <wgrant> Which matches https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/soundconverter
[10:28] <metallic> yes
[10:28] <wgrant> 14.04 == trusty, which has 2.0.4
[10:29] <metallic> So I should talk to someone of Trisquel and package the latest version?
[10:29] <wgrant> Right.
[10:30] <metallic> Ok ok... Everything is clearer now, thank you very much wgrant for the kind explanation :)
[10:30] <metallic> I am a very new contributor, I don't even dare to contribute with code yet
[10:32] <Odd_Bloke> wgrant: Any idea about the stuckness of https://launchpad.net/~cloud-images-release-managers/+livefs/ubuntu/wily/docker-ubuntu-core/+build/28138 ?
[10:33] <wgrant> Odd_Bloke: That LiveFS isn't configured to use non-virtual builders. So it's trying to build on a ppc64el OpenStack instance, which doesn't exist.
[10:33] <Odd_Bloke> Aha, that explains it.
[10:33] <wgrant> Odd_Bloke: I've fixed the configuration and cancelled the build. Request a new one and it should work.
[10:33] <wgrant> (and the armhf and arm64 ones should stop failing)
[10:38] <wgrant> Odd_Bloke: Success.
[10:45] <Odd_Bloke> wgrant: Thanks! :)
[10:47] <Odd_Bloke> wgrant: ubuntu/wily/docker-ubuntu-core is a separate livefs from (the notional) ubuntu/xylophone/docker-ubuntu-core, right?  Or, put another way, will we need to get an admin to modify that every time we open a new series?
[10:50] <wgrant> Odd_Bloke: Yes, but that hopefully won't be an issue again -- we expect to have powerpc, ppc64el, armhf and arm64 virtualised builds before xenophobic.
[14:12] <ricotz> hi, is there some scheduled "cleaning" or is there something wrong? https://launchpad.net/builders
[16:06] <psivaa> i'm seeing some issues in viewing MP's, able to browse the code though
[16:08] <rpadovani> me too, it says 'Technically, the load balancer took too long to connect to an application server.'
[16:08] <rpadovani> np on all other pages of code.launchpad.net
[16:12] <vila> same here on code.launchpad.net
[16:13] <vila> 504 Gateway Time-out just popped up (instead of the "Uh oh !" page
[16:13] <rpadovani> cjwatson, wgrant are you aware of that? ^^
[16:17] <roadmr> merge request pages are timing/erroring out for me :( example: https://code.launchpad.net/~roadmr/checkbox/image-info-parsers/+merge/260068 everything else in launchpad seems OK (bugs, projects, etc)
[16:22] <vila> the issue is inside the data center, lp suffers but is not the cause (AIUI)
[16:23] <roadmr> vila: oh thanks! I'll wait then, I guess
[16:28] <stub> Infrastructure Launchpad depends on is down. Some things will work, but I expect most components of Launchpad to be failing right about now.
[17:05] <mpt> A cheer for whoever changed “CANONICAL GROUP LTD” to “Canonical Group Ltd” in Launchpad’s EV certificate. Details. :-)
[17:06] <jpds> What, no . after Ltd?
[17:07]  * pmjdebruijn guesses the caps thing
[21:34] <jderose> is there currently an outage with the ppa build service, or are things just really slow today? :)
[21:34] <wgrant> jderose: /topic
[21:35] <jderose> wgrant: ah, oops... read the topic, didn't digest it i guess. thanks!
[22:23] <aarow> Hi, folks on my project (https://launchpad.net/mahara) are getting "404 Resource not found" when trying to download our release files
[22:23] <aarow> for example https://launchpadlibrarian.net/187796035/mahara-1.10.0.zip
[22:24] <aarow> it seems to be semi-intermittent. One team member reported being able to download a release that gave me a 404 seconds earlier.
[22:24] <wgrant> aarow: Yes, see /topic. Our file serving infrastructure has run into a bit of trouble, and older files aren't currently accessible.
[22:24] <wgrant> Except if you happen to access then in the same browser as someone who accessed them recently, and manage to hit a cached version.
[22:24] <wgrant> We hope to have it all back in a few hours.
[22:25] <aarow> ah, cheers wgrant. I guess I skimmed the topic too quickly. I thought it meant this was the place to talk about file server issues. ;)
[23:54] <xnox> wgrant: i have a car these days, but i'm not driving to be remote hands again =)))))
[23:55] <wgrant> xnox: Heh, it's all back now, fortunately.
[23:56] <xnox> wgrant: ;-) cool, just catching up on the jokes. and librarian lives on ;-)


[00:03] <Lazza> Hi there, I would like to personally thank the Ubuntu wiki community for being open, friendly and polite. Today I was happy because, after spending a big amount of time on research on the topic, I enhanced the wiki to include information on how to download the latest BIOS upgrades for Samsung laptops (information that was defined not easily available). After that, one other author of the page (who believes he is its "owner", in true wiki spirit) made
[00:03] <Lazza> subsequent edits to first delete some parts of the text to make it less clear and finally dropping the entire content because he felt so jealous of his page that he didn't like it. So thank you, this made me realize what a truly open and positive community this is.
[00:04] <Lazza> It's nice to see that when you spend your time doing something helpful for other people, this is appreciated!
[00:11] <pmatulis> Lazza: thanks for that good feedback
[01:04] <Lazza> Pmatulis you're welcome ;-) sarcasm apart, this will be my first and last time to contribute to the Ubuntu wiki
[01:04] <Lazza> There is no point in spending time to improve the wiki if the next little boss of the page deletes everything
[01:06] <Lazza> If people are not able to realize that a page is not "theirs" and improving material is not a personal offence to them, I'd better spend my time somewhere else
[05:27] <pmatulis> Lazza: how many times has that happened to you?
[10:08] <Lazza> Pmatulis if with "that" you mean researching information about technical problems and writing tutorials for Ubuntu users, that happens routinely. If you mean that somebody vandalises what I write on the wiki, this was the first time. One is enough.
[10:10] <Lazza> I don't care about vandals, but I care about the time I lost and the fact that other Ubuntu users in need won't find such information. Next time I will write it on my website and in my language so only a few will benefit from the material
[14:25] <pmatulis> Lazza: well, try not to let one individual tarnish the entire ubuntu wiki. i know it must be frustrating, to say the least. i've seen this happen before and the issue was raised on the ubuntu-doc mailing list
[14:26] <pmatulis> Lazza: your stuff can always be reverted if we can resolve the dispute
[14:26] <pmatulis> civily
[15:28] <Lazza> pmatulis: can you suggest a way to do that? I sent an email to this person after he started to delete parts of the material that I added and *of course* I was totally ignored
[21:42] <pmatulis> Lazza: yes, the ubuntu-doc mailing list
[21:43] <pmatulis> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact


[00:52] <ScottL> persia, do you have a minute to talk about the -lowlatency kernel?
[00:52] <persia> yes
[00:53] <ScottL> i want to make sure that i understood your comment earlier about uploading it
[00:53] <ScottL> my understanding was that alessio should upload his -lowlatency kernel to the ubuntu repositories
[00:53] <persia> If folks are happy with it, I think it ought be uploaded.  I'm even willing to sponsor it (assuming it's not too full of packaging warts).
[00:54] <persia> He doesn't have permission.  He applied once, and it all fell apart in confusion.
[00:54] <persia> I think that's fixable, but not soon.  Until then, someone would have to sponsor the uploads.
[00:54] <ScottL> can i reply to his email to me that he can work with you on uploading it?
[00:57] <persia> I'll just catch him when he shows up here later (should be 8-9 hours, based on past history)
[00:58] <ScottL> that would be fantastic :)   i feel that i still need to respond to his email, so i'll ask him to talk to you then perhaps?
[00:59] <persia> Did I get this mail as well?  I may as well respond directly in that case :)
[01:00] <ScottL> it was an email that was sent directly to me, that's why i feel a response is necessary
[01:01] <persia> Oh, yeah.  Go ahead and tell him I said he could contact me, and I'd upload something.  I think he knows me well enough to know that I'm not always around if he needs uploads, but let's not block on him not having direct upload today.
[01:02] <persia> On a separate note, did you ever hear back from diwic?
[01:02] <ScottL> certainly, my most pressing concern is getting the kernel in for natty
[01:05] <ScottL> i had planned to contact diwic during work, but unfortunately did not have time
[01:05] <ScottL> but i will do so tonight when i have a few minutes uninterrupted
[01:07] <persia> Good luck.  I keep not finding him when I have a few minutes to look :(
[01:08] <ScottL> my plan was to actually email him directly
[01:10] <persia> Heh.  That might work better than randomly checking his idle status on IRC indeed :)
[01:13] <ScottL> okay, email sent and cc'd you
[01:17] <ScottL> i feel that there have been some exciting development for ubuntu studio during natty
[01:18] <ScottL> but i would also like to begin to look forward to Outrageous Orangutan
[01:20] <persia> My recommendation would be to make the switch around FeatureFreeze.
[01:20] <persia> Before then, tight focus on Natty is probably beneficial, only deferring what clearly can't be done into a "future" bucket.
[01:21] <persia> Then, come FF, review the "future" bucket, and start working towards strategy and goals for natty+1 to be prepared for UDS, whilst watching Natty for must-fix-now bugs or other release showstoppers.
[02:11] <scott-upstairs> persia, i still have two more outstanding items that i feel responsible for currently; the gnome-classic default xsession issue and some problems with tasksel
[02:11] <scott-upstairs> i have an "appointment" or general agreement to meet with didrocks for the former
[02:12] <scott-upstairs> i have code, others have looked at it and "think" it's good, but my testing has been inconclusive
[02:12] <scott-upstairs> my concern is that perhaps my testing is flawed :P
[02:12] <scott-upstairs> the tasksel issue is that during installation it seems to offer more than the intended options to install
[02:13] <scott-upstairs> rather than have a single item for ladpsa, lv2, and dssi, it seems to offer each one as an individual choice, although i'm not sure what they install individiually
[02:13] <scott-upstairs> i've looked back at the seeds and it seems that it should do that
[02:14] <scott-upstairs> i'll be talking with colin watson about that beginning next week
[02:14] <scott-upstairs>
[02:14] <scott-upstairs> BUT i had a thought about the future though
[02:14] <scott-upstairs> i would like to talk through it here and hopefully others see it and can offer opinions
[02:15] <scott-upstairs> troy has bugged me for awhile about ubuntu studio....what IS it?  WHO is it for?
[02:15] <scott-upstairs> and i've never had a really good idea, and nobody has seen to be able to really, accurately, and concisely write a wiki page to do so either
[02:16] <scott-upstairs> i've given thought on it or how ubuntu studio can differentiation itself more from other music distros
[02:16] <scott-upstairs> but troy also said something the other night that is pushing me abit
[02:16] <scott-upstairs> i had discovered a really good dvd authoring application (dvdstyler) and told troy about it....he was nonplussed, i think he said "yawn"
[02:17] <scott-upstairs> he was of the opinion that it's more or less a dead technology and he's more or less right i believe, it's certainly not the excitement for tomorrow
[02:17] <scott-upstairs> so, getting video onto the web is where video is at
[02:18] <scott-upstairs> and blender can help with that...quite easily
[02:18] <scott-upstairs> but what about music...can we help musicians get their music on the web
[02:18] <scott-upstairs> can we help musicians become internet savvy with promoting themselves, posting their music/videos, telling others about themsevles?
[02:19] <scott-upstairs> instead of a "me menu", can we offer something like a "music me" menu?
[02:20] <scott-upstairs> instead of posting a picture to twitter, can we develop an app that would push a song to a server, create the link, and send "listen to my new song - http://shorturl.url" ?
[02:20] <scott-upstairs> can we develop good workflows to help musicians make vimeo or youtube ready videos?
[02:21] <scott-upstairs> can we cultivate ubuntu studio to be a "web musician" platform?
[02:23] <ScottL> are there other items that people can suggest that would help musicians?
[02:37] <persia> Heh.  Now you're starting to think about the possibilities :)
[02:37] <persia> Personally, I wouldn't focus on differentiation for the sake of differentiation, instead I'd recommend focusing on enabling exciting behaviours.
[02:38] <persia> If everyone else adopts the same stuff, that's not bad: it just compliments on the direction you've chosen.
[02:38] <persia> Similarly, if other folk do cool stuff, there's no reason not to borrow.
[02:45] <ScottL> right, but i'm not thinking of differentiation just for its sake, i'm thinking of providing something that would cause users to choose ubuntu studio because it was useful
[02:46] <ScottL> the open source nature makes it so that everyone will eventually have the same functionality most likely
[02:46] <ScottL> and i can accept it, but if we come first then hopefully we can do it right or better than others who will be "catching up"
[02:46] <persia> Well, there's ways one can make that hard, but I think that following the spirit, everyone will always have the same stuff.
[02:47] <persia> I think that strategically it makes sense to pick a relatively small area of focus for leadership, and let others lead in other areas.
[02:47] <persia> For instance, if the focus is "enable simple and seamless audio/video production, promotion, and distribution", that meets the targets you mention above.
[02:48] <persia> But still provides space for some other distro to push resources into creating the ultimate DAW, or similar.
[02:48] <persia> And the result is that everyone benefits.
[02:59] <ScottL> i don't want to make it hard for others, that's certainly not part of the open source spirit in my opinion
[02:59] <ScottL> but innovation should always keep you in front for a period of time
[03:00] <persia> Well, kinda.  Depends where you're headed :)
[03:00] <ScottL> hopefully we can maintain some sense of innovation, i'm not sure it's really happening in other audio distributions
[03:00] <ScottL> oh, that's true about where you are  headed
[03:00] <persia> But given the resources of Ubuntu Studio, I recommend starting with a fairly narrow definition of "ahead" if you want to have the perception of being ahead of others :)
[03:01] <persia> I very much support innovation, but I tend to be interested in innnovation towards some goal, rather than in comparison with others.
[03:07] <ScottL> right, innovation without a definitive and worthy goal is hollow, doing so to be "better" than others is doubly so
[03:11] <ScottL> i would like to help find and develop a defining aspect of ubuntu studio that establish it so that it isn't simply interchangeable with other audio distributions
[03:11] <persia> But innovation to make Ubuntu Studio better for folk who want to create stuff and post it to the internet is a cool and worthy goal :)
[03:12] <ScottL> well, you are correct :)
[03:12] <ScottL> i thought of something else
[03:12] <persia> Yes?
[03:13] <ScottL> another possible idea is that a musician could use a "music me" menu to post a song to various music hosting sites, lke bandcamp or soundcloud, with a single click
[03:14] <ScottL> sorry for the delay, wife came home and fmaily is going a little crazy behind me currently
[03:14] <persia> No worries.  I'm cooking, so intermittently latent as well :)
[03:15] <persia> Ought that be contextual per-song: some sort of nautilus plugin?
[03:17] <ScottL> my original thought was how you can configure gwibber or the me menu how your posts can send/retrieve from various formats
[03:18] <ScottL> click the "push song" button, navigate to the song to select it, and click the "places" (i.e. bandcamp, etc) to send it to
[03:18] <ScottL> maybe an option radio button for posting to identica with a message
[03:18] <persia> So, what is the complete interaction?  Audio or video files don't tend to fit in menus as easily as string input widgets :)
[03:19]  * persia needs to get more patient
[03:19] <persia> OK.  That makes sense.
[03:20] <persia> My concern is that it feels like an extra step, as compared to navigating to the song via the file manager, and then sending it to the chosen service via the SendTo menu.
[03:20] <persia> On the other hand, what you describe is more discoverable :)
[03:20] <ScottL> that would work as well, i'm not a coder, i just come up with ideas from time to time :)
[03:21] <ScottL> but i think it would serve to have others weigh in as well and brainstorm ideas
[03:21] <persia> It's just software: the implementation is wildly flexible.  The hard part is designing the least invasive interaction paradigm so that the user intuitively is able to accomplish their goals and feels the loss when the features aren't available.
[03:21] <persia> Oh, indeed.
[03:21] <ScottL> maybe i should make another blueprint or a ubuntu brainstorm idea as well, try to pull other people into it
[03:22] <persia> If you want to encourage innovation in the area of creating content and sharing it online, I'd recommend starting a big thread about that, and soliciting people to write specifications (which they would be willing to help implement) once the ideas begin to solidify
[03:22] <ScottL> i'm terribly encouraged by paul.tag's involvement currently, especially so at a time when i was beginning to despair and worry about the future
[03:22] <persia> I think that's the right path.
[03:23] <ScottL> "a big thread" at ubuntu forums?
[03:23] <ScottL> or on the mailing lists
[03:23] <persia> I was thinking mailing lists.  You could do forums.  You probably know which sort of discussion is preferred by our users more than I (I mostly only hang out on IRC)
[03:54] <ScottL> i think we have a small, cusping on vibrant, group in the mailing list, with others sometimes joining from time to time, e.g. ailo or ronan
[03:55] <ScottL> it's been a bit of a mixed bag with the forums though, it seems to be those who are well intentioned but do not seem to really follow through or contribute
[03:58] <persia> In that case, I'd recommend the mailing list as the place for discussion intending to lead to work for the participants :)
[13:50] <ScottL> persia, david responded to my email (you were included in the email but i know you don't read everything) and he says he hasn't really done anything as he's pretty busy with canonical work
[13:51] <holstein> ScottL: henningson?
[13:51] <persia> ScottL, Indeed.  Hrm.
[13:51] <persia> holstein, Yes.
[13:52] <holstein> im going to get some better, more factual data
[13:52] <holstein> i'll try and get it later
[13:52] <holstein> cut and past from the JACK window running that generic kernel
[13:57] <persia> The problem seems to not be the rtprio part, but the memlock part.
[13:58] <holstein> yeah
[13:58] <holstein> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/690010
[13:58] <holstein> i'll see if i can catch ailo later
[13:58] <holstein> and we can add to that bug or whatever
[14:02] <persia> Does that affect pulse as well?
[14:02] <holstein> hmmm
[14:02] <holstein> persia: good question
[14:02] <persia> If it does, diwic can probably claim it's paid work to work on it :)
[14:03] <holstein> true
[14:04] <persia> Maybe already sorted: diwic claims "Confirmed fixed in v2.6.38-rc2. Soon coming to a kernel near you :-)" in comment #15
[14:04] <persia> And again in #17 with "Confirmed fixed in 2.6.38-1-generic"
[14:06] <holstein> yeah, thats what i need to check
[14:06] <holstein> ailo and i both found an RT error in the JACK messages
[14:06] <holstein> doesnt make JACK not run
[14:06] <holstein> but, you cant use things like rakarrack or soft synths
[14:07] <persia> So JACK runs, but without realtime?  Even with rtprio set in limits.conf?
[14:10] <holstein> persia: thats the issue we found
[14:10] <holstein> and had ScottL confirm
[14:10] <holstein> we were talking about keeping better testing documentation though
[14:10] <holstein> ailo has emailed a lot of the particulars
[14:10] <holstein> so its in writing somewhere
[14:13] <holstein> i'll have to ask ailo though
[14:13] <holstein> right now im seeing JACK server starting in realtime mode with priority 10
[14:13] <holstein> with a generic kernel
[14:13] <holstein> in lucid
[14:14] <holstein> lots of xruns though
[15:09] <ailo> Let me reboot and post the jack message from using the -generic
[15:20] <ailo> First time I try linux generic 2.6.38-1. Seems to work. How can one see if it isn't handling memlock?
[15:20] <ailo> jackd message http://paste.ubuntu.com/559552/
[15:21] <persia> ailo, You are using the limits.conf settings?
[15:21] <persia> Or rtkit?
[15:22] <ailo> Should I remove limits.conf?
[15:22] <ailo> I'm using it now
[15:23] <ailo> Or, I am using audio.conf to be more exact
[15:24] <persia> No, juec checking to answer your question :)  Do you have a memlock entry in your audio.conf?
[15:24] <persia> s/juec/just/
[15:25] <ailo> Yes. It's the default that came with the jackd installation.
[15:25] <ailo> rtprio 95, memlock unlimited
[15:26] <persia> In that case, your JACK is working with unlimited memlock.  You will probably get performance degradation without that setting.
[15:26] <persia> The outstanding bit of work is 1) to extend rtkit to be able to also provide unlimited memlock, and 2) to have JACK use rtkit instead of relying on the PAM settings.
[15:27] <ailo> So, next update will fix that?
[15:27] <persia> If someone does the work :)  Personally, I think it will be a bit longer.
[15:27] <ailo> Still, just testing the -generic kernel with realtime on Natty for the first time, the performance is no comparable with -lowlatency at least
[15:27] <persia> That said, it's great news to know that we don't have a regression anymore, although there is still work to do to be able to avoid the "audio" group without exposing the system to DoS attacks.
[15:28] <persia> That's expected.  Hard numbers would be appreciated.
[15:28] <persia> abogani, May I publish the -lowlatency from your PPA to the archive, or shall I wait for another upload or two?
[15:28] <ailo> I can only do this comparison. -lowlatency 64 frames/period. -generic 256 frames/period
[15:29] <ailo> But I would need to do some more testing too
[15:29] <abogani> persia: I would want wait for next upload I'm building -38 right now.
[15:30] <persia> abogani, Sounds like a plan.  Will that include the fix for the issue discussed above?
[15:30] <abogani> persia: Do you mean the fix for bug 690010?
[15:30] <persia> Yes
[15:31] <abogani> persia: Of course.
[15:31] <persia> Excellent!
[15:31] <persia> In that case, just let me know when you're happy with the state of the package, and I'll push it.
[15:32] <abogani> persia: Ok.
[15:33] <persia> Thanks a lot
[15:33] <abogani> persia: Thanks to you.
[15:33]  * persia hasn't done anything yet :)
[15:34] <ailo> I'm having some problems with nvidia on 2.6.38-1. I suppose that is to be expected?
[15:36] <abogani> By the way, the actual procedure for update  the -lowlatency kernel is **really** trivial. So I'm feel confident to let the package in someone others hand. Is there someone would want start his way as kernel maintainer? Volunteers?
[15:37] <ailo> Actually there is no realtime without the audio.conf on the new -generic
[15:38] <ailo> I removed the @audio lines in audio.conf and got this http://paste.ubuntu.com/559558/
[15:39] <ailo> Still, nice to have realtime at all
[15:43] <ailo> Do I need to do something to get rtkit to work with jackd, aside from installing the latest -generic?
[15:50]  * abogani is wondering if we could use file capabilities instead of audio.conf, limits.conf and rtkit...
[15:52] <abogani> Is it too rough?
[15:55] <ScottL> abogani, i would like to start myway as kernel maintainer
[16:01] <abogani> ScottL: Ok.
[16:05] <abogani> Any thoughts about file capabilities?
[16:22] <persia> ailo, If you want JACK to use rtkit, it would require source-level changes in JACK.
[16:23] <persia> abogani, File capabilities aren't enough.  We can do rtprio with rtkit easily enough.  The part that is yet to be investigated is the memlock=unlimited, which I don't believe we can express with capabilities alone in a way that correctly restricts it to console users.
[16:24] <persia> The risk of not integrating with consolekit and restricting to console users is that other classes of user would be able to overdemand resources, making the system unresponsive.
[16:24] <persia> The initial feedback I received from the #ubuntu-hardened folk is that they would much prefer us to limit to console users.
[16:25] <abogani> persia: Ok I understand. Thanks for explanation.
[17:06] <ScottL> ah, i think i have the problem fixed for the gnome-classic default xsession issue
[17:06] <ScottL> (or, how lysdexlia screwed up my code)
[17:10] <ailo> Will there ever be a problem us using audio.conf on Natty? I assume we will not be able to live without it, since audio apps need to be changed in order to work without it.
[17:11] <ailo> ScottL: So your headache is over?
[17:13] <ailo> I guess I could ask you persia. audio.conf will be required by UbuntuStudio. I assume there will be no problems with that.
[17:27] <persia> What is the content of audio.conf, and where is it placed?
[17:31] <ailo> persia: /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf  added when choosing yes to realtime while installing jackd
[17:31] <persia> Oh, instead of modifications to limits.conf?
[17:31] <ailo> Yes
[17:32] <persia> I very much hope we can find a solution that doesn't require that, but until such a solution is established, yes it is required.
[17:32] <ailo> So, two lines. One for rtprio and one for memlock
[17:33] <ailo> persia: I'm working on UbuntuStudio-controls which will check if that file exists. I guess I won't be able to change that after feature freeze. Don't know what my options are after that.
[17:35] <persia> Do you think we ought just ship that file configured when JACK is installed, to save the user from confusion?
[17:35] <ailo> The idea is that the -controls will make sure we get good audio performance, and we can't get it without the audio.conf, audio group and -lowlatency kernel
[17:35] <ailo> persia: That would be great
[17:36] <persia> Then let's do that.  In general, I believe in the philosophy of "Just Works": if we think we need to have that file, let's ship it with JACK.
[17:36] <ailo> I'm for that.
[17:36] <ScottL> i believe that jack creates the /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf during installation (even from vanilla ubuntu) if the user choose to enable rt privileges when prompted
[17:36] <persia> We can recommend the lowlatency kernel, and install it by default (if everything is sorted), but I'd rather avoid forcing the user to manually adjust things, if possible.
[17:38] <ailo> The problem I would think is to add the user automatically to audio group
[17:38] <ScottL> ailo, i hope that the headache is over, i just need to wait for a ppa build and then test it
[17:38] <ailo> As for audio.conf, I see no reason to edit that
[17:39] <ailo> And if -lowlatency could be added as a choice while installing either jackd or Ubuntustudio-*(something) that would be great too
[17:40] <ailo> Or will the -lowlatency end up in the repos for Natty, now? I missed that
[17:40] <ailo> I too believe that the user shouldn't need to make too many choices.
[17:41] <ScottL> ailo, i think the changes for the -controls should consider that either -lowlatency or -rt kernel could be installed
[17:41] <persia> ailo, I'm planning to upload -lowlatency to the archives once abogani finishes the update to 2.6.28
[17:41] <ScottL> even if the -lowlatency is installed from a fresh ubuntu studio install we could still install the -rt kernel from the ppa
[17:41] <persia> Err, 2.6.38
[17:41] <ailo> persia: great news.
[17:42] <persia> Is there observable difference in performance between -rt and -lowlatency?
[17:42] <paultag> persia: not sure, but the underlying changes are pretty huge
[17:42] <ScottL> persia, i believe using the -rt kernel allows users with firewire to adjust irq conflicts
[17:42] <ailo> persia: still remains to be seen, however for firewire devices, -rt is the only option sometimes
[17:42] <paultag> persia: the rt patch really changed the schedule code
[17:43] <ScottL> for some users, an -rt kernel, even an older one, is a must to allow their firewire devies to function
[17:43] <ScottL> that is what i have been told
[17:45] <ailo> If the -rt will be slightly better, I can believe people will want to use that for extreme low latency too, but if not, it is most likely only suitable for firewire users as a last resort.
[17:45] <persia> Someone ought investigate that.  I've been told by any number of kernel developers that -rt is really only interesting from an embedded viewpoint.  I've nothing against it, but I wonder if there isn't some other factor confusing reports.
[17:46] <persia> I know that -rt sometimes increases overall system load, which can have negative effects for some audio applications, although I generally recommend against anyone loading their system enough to notice this sort of thing.
[17:47] <ailo> I can't see any reason why -lowlatency shouldn't be regarded as the main multimedia kernel, and the -rt more as something experimental. Again, it is the last resort for some.
[17:47] <ScottL> ailo, yes
[17:48] <ScottL> once the -lowlatency gets into the repos it will included on the dvd as the "default" ubuntu studio kernel
[17:48] <ScottL> that doesn't help people who start with vanilla ubuntu and install ubuntustudio packages though
[17:48] <ScottL> that would be where the -controls checking script comes in
[17:49] <ScottL> it would be nice to offer the choices (lowlatency or rt), giving explanation why each could be chosen, and then allow the user to select
[17:49] <ailo> If we add the option to install it from -controls we'll need to make sure the user is updated on the difference between the two
[17:49] <ScottL> and selection option could be "none - stop checking it for me"
[17:49] <ailo> Yes
[17:50] <ScottL> on my system i would want to install the -lowlatency, but i don't want the check to keep checking it and telling me the -rt kernel is available when i don't want it
[17:50] <ScottL> and "opt out" choice would be very nice
[17:50]  * ScottL is taking son to lunch then library, be back in a few hours
[17:50] <ailo> I would let it check if either of the two is installed and then recommend the -lowlatency. If any of the two is installed, the user made that choice and we won't bug them about it
[17:51] <persia> ailo, You'll be using python-apt to check and install the kernel?
[17:52] <ailo> persia: don't know yet. I wrote a script that did that, but I will need to redo a lot if I make a real gui for Ubuntustudio-controls
[17:52] <ailo> My first unfinished script uses zenity to do all that
[17:53] <ailo> The plan was that the script is run at startup to check the system and notify the user if something is missing
[17:53] <ailo> And if the user decides to make changes, -controls is opened, which also can be accessed manually. And that woul be written in python.
[17:54] <ailo> To be clear, the first script was a bash script.
[17:56] <persia> How are you running it "at startup"?
[17:57] <ailo> As a startup program, which I added manually. I suppose that can be added as a part of the installation.
[18:00] <ailo> There's just one thing that is bugging me when it comes to changing settings and such. Let's say the user installs -lowlatency from Ubuntustudio-controls. Now, the user needs to choose kernel at every boot.
[18:01] <persia> Why?
[18:01] <ailo> Seems unnecessary, while it would be unusual to uninstall the -generic. Is it possible to make Grub always choose a -lowlatency kernel.
[18:01] <persia> The standard method is to have the bootloaders boot the last installed kernel unless the user modifes their choices.
[18:02] <ailo> Yes, but then comes an update...
[18:02] <ailo> You will only have this problem when installing from repo and not from the alternate DVD
[18:05] <ailo> I would actually vote for removing the -generic just to save some trouble, even if it is not so much trouble
[18:06] <persia> There's a good argument for that.  The main opposition being that historically we've tried not to remove anything without user intervention.  Maybe it is worth investigating the bootloader update scripts to allow one to express a preference for one or another *type* of kernel, regardless of updates.
[18:07] <ailo> I guess making Grub smart would be more standard like.
[18:09] <persia> Always best to try to improve the code that one finds troublesome, rather than trying to work around it.
[18:10] <falktx> hey there
[18:10] <persia> In this case, I don't think grub itself needs to be adjusted: just the code that updates grub when the kernels are installed/updated
[18:10] <falktx> I noticed you guys we're looking for a website cleanup/remodelling
[18:10] <falktx> what CMS do you consider best - joomla, drupal or wordpress ?
[18:16] <ailo> persia: I guess I should check it there already is a mechanism for choosing a kernel by name first. Thanks.
[18:17] <persia> Good luck.
[19:37] <ailo> ScottL: Nice work on the Plymouth theme, but now it's hardly showing at all. At boot-up I only see it for less than a second, after a few seconds of purple. The purple I'm assuming is a part of the Grub theme
[19:37] <ailo> If we want to have a unified Ubuntustudio-look I would suggest someone had a look at changing the Grub theme as well.
[19:38] <ailo> Or, is it scott-upstairs? :)
[19:42] <ailo> Also, I had to reinstall it after some updates I did. Will that be a problem later, when the theme is in the repo? (I guess not).
[19:43] <ailo> The theme was replaced by a blue screen, that is why I had to reinstall the Ubuntustudio Plymouth theme.
[20:09] <ScottL> ailo, thanks on the plymouth theme (i actually thought it might have been just a touch too big now), but i don't believe i can control how long it stays on the screen
[20:10] <ScottL> i had mentioned to holstein before about using the same graphic possibly for plymouth, grub, gdm, and background
[20:10] <ScottL> ailo, also check with paultag about the -controls update, he's working on it as well with doctormo
[20:11] <ScottL> i suggested that paultag get involved because i believe it too be extremely important to get the udpate done in time for testing so it can be included with natty to appreciate the user's experience
[20:23] <ailo> ScottL: glad to hear that paultag is working on that. I should follow their work instead of pursuing my own. Still only learning the gui stuff, since I've had too little time.
[20:24] <ailo> ScottL: Didn't try your update on the plymouth theme, though. So, I haven't seen the new size.
[21:43]  * persia notes that in an ideal situation the boot is too fast to even display plymouth: one only sees it for slow boots.
[21:52] <paultag> ailo: I want to hand this off to you after it's stable
[21:52] <paultag> ailo: you seem like you'd make a good maintainer :)
[21:53] <ailo> paultag: I would like to see what is done, since I already got involved. Can't predict what will happen for the next release.
[21:54] <paultag> ailo: OK
[21:54] <ailo> I'm ready to do some work on details if necessary. At least have the opportunity to slip in an idea
[21:59] <ailo> paultag: Do you guys have a list of features for it? Ubuntustudio-controls that is.
[22:02] <paultag> ailo: on the wiki somewhere. doctormo and I are fleshing it out
[22:03] <ailo> paultag: This one? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ControlsRedesign
[22:04] <paultag> ailo: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/SettingsApp/Redux
[22:11] <ailo> paultag: Thanks. I discussed with persia about maybe letting jackd install the audio.conf by default. Don't know who can make this change. I would vote for that file to be added in the same fashion, if needed by -controls. No need to adjust values, just add the file as a part of adding user to audio group, since those go hand in hand..
[22:12] <ScottL> paultag, ailo , i love to learn more about the updates as well that you are working on, and if no one else is there i will volunteer to be the maintainer
[22:12] <paultag> ScottL: oh, no, I'm here for the long haul -- if no one really wants to take it over, I'll maintain it no problem
[22:13] <paultag> ScottL: I'm just looking to give anyone at all their shot
[22:13] <paultag> ScottL: and you're project leader, so stuff it ;)
[22:13] <ailo> paultag: (The file /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf being the file that includes rtprio and memlock settings.)
[22:14] <paultag> ailo: yeah :)
[22:17] <ailo> paultag: so far, I at least need rtprio set for me to use realtime on the latest -generic, so perhaps this will be needed in the future too? Seem like a lot of things are a bit uncertain. Anyway, that's my two cents.
[22:18] <paultag> ailo: we'll chat, but I need to run to a wine tasting :)
[22:19] <ailo> paultag: Ok. Have fun :)
[22:19] <paultag> ailo: talk with you soon :)
[22:30] <ailo> ScottL: As much as I would like to learn more about these things, I can't promise much for the next release, so I'll just focus on this one. At this point I think I should just focus on the testing documentation. If my startup-script is needed for anything, just use it. It will need to be adjusted to work with -controls, if used at all.
[22:32] <ScottL> paultag, that link for doctormo's image didn't bring anything up :(   just an imagebin page with no image
[22:32] <ScottL> ailo, that's understandable about the next release and i appreciate you being forthcoming about it :)
[22:33] <ScottL> ailo, and you would aboslutely ROCK if you made any progress with the testing documentation
[22:34] <ScottL> paultag, i'm an idiot sometimes, it's the logo for -controls
[22:34] <ailo> ScottL: Thanks. Shouldn't have to be too in to detail. Just nice to have a list of things to go through.
[22:34] <ScottL> paultag, i was looking for a dialogue box type configuration page
[22:34] <ScottL> ailo, that's true :)
[22:50] <ScottL> paultag, kids were keeping my attention (even when looking at doctormo's image), looks pretty cool although the center reminds me of kde
[23:14] <ScottL> i have SUCCESS with my gnome-classic xsession patch!  i'm so bloody happy :D
[23:14] <ScottL> fresh install of natty, installed my ppa build, and new users default to gnome-classic
[23:33] <persia> ScottL, Excellent work!
[23:39] <ScottL> thank you, persia
[23:39] <ScottL> i'll see if i can't get a patch uploaded tonight to the bug report


[01:57] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[03:52] <marcoagpinto> Morning!
[05:39] <lordievader> Good morning
[06:48] <ducasse> good morning
[13:10] <goddard> why does ubuntu ask me if i want to update but then has updates after i already "updated" in the installer?
[13:11] <goddard> also the welcome window shouldn't launch the app store as a sub-process
[13:11] <goddard> if i close the welcome it closes the app store
[13:12] <goddard> also the errors in the app store should be more friendly and snap operations should have a queue system
[13:12] <goddard> super unfriendly errors make it seem like it is broken rather then just doing what it should be doing
[13:13] <goddard> if the user wants to "enable debugging" or something then show the extra information
[13:13] <goddard> but i just installed ubuntu and now i have a 200 something packages to update
[13:13] <goddard> what was the point of the updates checkbox again?
[13:14] <lotuspsychje> goddard: you are part of the ubuntu community, file some wishlist bugs
[13:14] <goddard> ubuntu is a little too old to be having these kind of problems
[13:15] <goddard> file bugs that the devs will ignore no thanks
[13:15] <ducasse> goddard: i am not sure as i have not tested this, but it's possible the checkbox only enables installation of security updates
[13:16] <ducasse> same thing as auto install of updates
[13:17] <lotuspsychje> goddard: if your wishlist is sane enough and you find other users to back it, you can get more attention and make a difference on your fav Os
[13:18] <lotuspsychje> goddard: a new installer is also being made based on flutter, now its the time for your ideas?
[13:19] <goddard> oh great
[13:19] <goddard> linux people love re-inventing the wheel
[13:19] <lotuspsychje> its called evolution, every release things change
[13:19] <goddard> and breaks stuff
[13:19] <goddard> and still has bugs and acts crappy
[13:19] <lotuspsychje> you know any Os that doesnt have bugs?
[13:20] <goddard> change creates bugs
[13:20] <goddard> we have not even perfected basic app store features
[13:21] <goddard> but lets totally make a new installer
[13:21] <goddard> who makes these choices?
[13:21] <lotuspsychje> there's influences from a lot of sides on the ubuntu community
[13:22] <lotuspsychje> there's not a man god pressing a red button up there
[13:23] <goddard> why can't you right click the dock?
[13:23] <goddard> to get settings
[13:23] <goddard> why cant you minimize apps by clicking the icon on the dock?
[13:24] <goddard> the default experience just feels unfinished and broken
[13:24] <lotuspsychje> goddard: you can minimize apps by clicking icons in dconf-editor
[13:25] <goddard> wow sounds super friendly
[13:25] <goddard> you see what i am saying?
[13:25] <goddard> that is not a good solution
[13:25] <ducasse> ithm it's a setting to enable it
[13:26] <ducasse> other than that, the gnome desktop is infamous for removing useful features
[13:26] <lotuspsychje> goddard: create some good solutions bugs and ill affect them if they good
[13:29] <goddard> okay
[13:29] <goddard> on launchpad?
[13:29] <Maik> yep
[13:30] <goddard> launchpad is annoying as well
[13:30] <goddard> haha
[13:30] <Maik> sigh
[13:30] <goddard> i remember when i was in college i was trying to read the documentation to learn how to package things and the documentation was wrong.  I ended up updating the documentation and the process was long and not fun.
[13:31] <goddard> bzr is not very popular
[13:32] <goddard> shouldn't the documentation system itself hold the versions of the documents?  Why is it in source control with bzr??
[13:32] <goddard> thats why the documentation is out of date
[13:32] <goddard> its hard to do
[13:32] <goddard> too much energy just to change text
[13:33] <goddard> if i used mysql for example
[13:33] <goddard> id just have multiple copies of that item
[13:33] <goddard> never delete anything
[13:33] <goddard> take the newest but have the ability to review old stuff
[13:33] <goddard> simple
[13:33] <goddard> php mysql and js
[13:34] <goddard> takes like 10 minutes to set that up and is already better
[13:34] <ducasse> mysql is a cruel mistress
[13:34] <goddard> well whatever you a cloud provider
[13:34] <goddard> mysql is great for something like this
[13:34] <goddard> just have a read cluster and one write master
[13:34] <goddard> if it is really getting that much traffic
[13:35] <Maik> geez what a chatter
[13:35] <goddard> just venting all these little annoying things hoping some one hears it
[13:36] <lotuspsychje> this is a discuss channel, not really a monologue vent
[13:36] <Maik> vent in your own channel ;)
[13:36] <goddard> feel free to tell me i am wrong
[13:36] <lotuspsychje> perhaps if you learn to discuss with someone it might work goddard
[13:36] <goddard> i am doing it now but you guys aren't saying anything
[13:36] <goddard> talk faster :D
[13:36] <goddard> who controls the documentation system in Ubuntu?
[13:37] <Maik> maybe because no one is really interrested?
[13:37] <goddard> i know
[13:37] <lotuspsychje> a discusion is talk & listen to each other, not a monologue of 1000 polls at the same time
[13:37] <goddard> not paid to be interested
[13:37] <goddard> lotuspsychje: haha thats funny
[13:38] <goddard> so who is in charge of Ubuntu documentation?
[13:38] <Maik> search the web for that
[13:38] <Maik> all the people here are volunteers
[13:38] <goddard> well i assume some people are paid right?
[13:38] <Maik> no
[13:38] <goddard> really?
[13:38] <lotuspsychje> goddard: if you file bugs/wishlists on ubuntu, the right dev gets notified
[13:38] <goddard> how can you afford that?
[13:39] <goddard> lotuspsychje: ill do it
[13:39] <Ussat> We are all independantly wealthy.......
[13:39] <lotuspsychje> lol
[13:39] <lotuspsychje> rich volunteers :p
[13:39] <goddard> nice pass me a money tree then
[13:39] <ducasse> we get pizza
[13:41] <Ussat> goddard, I have always been ammused by people who look at something free, come up with all these ways OTHER poeple can improve it, but are willing do do nothing...yes, I am looking at you goddard
[13:42] <Maik> Ussat: yep, exactly
[13:42] <Ussat> Now, back to my yacht since I am independantly wealthy :)
[13:42] <goddard> I just told you how i gave back Ussat
[13:42] <goddard> also look at my AskUbuntu
[13:42] <goddard> thats how i know this stuff
[13:42] <goddard> I dont have time to fuss around
[13:43] <goddard> so i gotta talk to the people that have Ubuntu as their job
[13:43] <goddard> I can help with money
[13:43] <goddard> that is really it
[13:43] <Ussat> Right, because your time is so much more important
[13:43] <goddard> I have 3 infants
[13:43] <goddard> and work 2 jobs
[13:43] <Maik> dude
[13:44] <lotuspsychje> goddard: you got a LP account?
[13:45] <goddard> ya
[13:45] <goddard> haven't used it other than saying yes this affects me
[13:45] <lotuspsychje> whats your username?
[13:45] <goddard> at least some what recently
[13:45] <goddard> i think goddard
[13:46] <lotuspsychje> mark goddard?
[13:46] <goddard> oh kinggoddard
[13:46] <goddard> https://launchpad.net/~kinggoddard
[13:46] <goddard> https://askubuntu.com/users/37577/goddard
[13:47] <lotuspsychje> lets see
[13:48] <lotuspsychje> goddard: so you got 1 wishlist, you know how it works
[13:49] <goddard> ya total fraud
[13:49] <goddard> you got me
[13:49] <goddard> :D
[13:57] <goddard> i wish i had time to just do whatever fun project I want maybe when i retire or my kids are in college
[13:57] <Ussat> ....
[13:58] <Ussat> You assume none of us have ANY obligations ?
[13:58] <Ussat> Get off the poor me train
[13:58] <goddard> do you live in a hut?
[13:58] <Maik> goddard: chat less maybe, saves time
[13:58] <goddard> gotta hate on me some how because I didn't say Linux is perfect?
[13:58] <goddard> lame
[13:59] <Maik> no, not at all, just telling the trith
[13:59] <Maik> truth
[13:59] <goddard> Maik: its not a poor me thing.  I am defending myself because you act like you know me.
[14:00] <Maik> you waste your time on venting, ranting and nagging non stop. drop that and you have more time lef :D
[14:00] <Maik> goddard: i've seen people like you before throughout the 13 years on IRC so yeah
[14:00] <goddard> oh really?
[14:01] <goddard> please enlighten me oh wise IRC master
[14:01] <Ussat> ...
[14:01]  * Ussat gets popcorn
[14:01] <goddard> haha
[14:02] <Maik> nah, i'm tired of feeding a .....
[14:02] <Maik> have better things to do
[14:02] <Maik> laters
[14:02] <ducasse> ok guys, this is going nowhere
[14:02] <goddard> haha
[14:02] <goddard> instead of talking about the issues you attack me as a person
[14:02] <goddard> good one!
[14:03] <goddard> i never said i was Mr. Linux aka Linus himself.  I am just a dude that uses Linux and has seen these annoying issues over and over again and nothing is happening it seems so I am yacking it up on IRC.
[14:04] <Maik> yawn... ignore it is
[14:04] <goddard> I support open source projects with the only thing I can
[14:04] <goddard> that is money
[14:05] <goddard> I hate people that can't admin when they are wrong.
[14:05] <goddard> admit
[14:06] <goddard> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWelcomeScreen#:~:text=%20Ubuntu%20Welcome%20Screen%20%201%20Summary.%20Hardy%2C,to%20use%20as%20possible.%20A%20window...%20More%20
[14:06] <goddard> just a taste of how great the ubuntu docs are
[14:08] <goddard> the docs have a link to thepimp.net that is 404
[14:08] <goddard> http://macslow.thepimp.net/?p=150
[14:08] <goddard> i think some people just have low standards
[14:09] <goddard> its probably better to have nothing at all compared to that in my opinion
[14:09] <goddard> try to find the code base for the welcome screen
[14:11] <goddard> i tried searching for it and couldn't find it
[14:11] <goddard> probably just some python script
[14:11] <goddard> if i could easily find the damn thing i could fix the one command
[14:12] <goddard> make it launch the App store as its own process not a sub process
[14:12] <ogra> https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity
[14:13] <goddard> thats the installer
[14:13] <goddard> right?
[14:15] <daftykins> goddard: goodness me, you make Ussat see like a Saint
[14:15] <daftykins> *seem
[14:15] <goddard> im sorry i am not on my best behavior just being brutally honest
[14:16] <daftykins> i suppose it is Monday!
[14:17] <goddard> haha maybe that is what it is
[20:00] <Bashing-om> UWN: Issue 679 is on the streets: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue679 :D
[20:05] <sarnold> :)
[23:53] <guiverc> thanks Maik (earlier in ubuntu.offtopic telegram) for stepping in before me...