[04:25] <nigelb> hello folks
[04:26] <nigelb> sleeping for 15 hours was definitely a good idea :)
[04:26] <pleia2> :)
[04:27] <pleia2> nigelb: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pleia2/5722884686/
[04:27] <nigelb> \o/
[04:28] <nigelb> pleia2, that came out good :)
[04:28] <pleia2> I took two naps today, ETA on sleep being back to normal is June :)
[04:28] <nigelb> haha, yeah with so little travel :p
[04:29] <pleia2> tonight I'm picking my boyfriend up at the airport at 2:30AM (should have been 11:30 but lots of delays)
[04:30] <nigelb> ick
[04:30] <nigelb> but on the plus side, your sleep schedule may be still wacky
[04:30] <pleia2> nothing to ruin on my next trips?
[04:30] <pleia2> hehe
[04:31] <nigelb> heh
[06:44] <jussi> Home again!!!
[06:45] <jussi> and Finland are the new ice hockey world champions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :D
[07:49] <tsimpson> jussi: but we beat you at singing
[07:59] <popey> "singing"
[08:00] <tsimpson> what passes for singing anyway
[08:26] <jussi> tsimpson: are you sure thats singing? I thought that was some form of random crap...
[09:22] <nigelb> ;)
[09:24] <kim0> nigelb: hey man :)
[09:25] <kim0> dholbach: did you "drive" home ?
[09:25] <nigelb> kim0: You must be very glad the time zone in Hungary was the same as yours
[09:25] <kim0> haha .. yeah that helps :)
[09:26] <dholbach> kim0, I flew to Frankfurt, took the train to my parents' place on Sat and drove to Berlin with all my stuff on Sunday
[09:27] <kim0> ah ... so you used them all :) no boats involved :)
[09:27] <nigelb> haha
[09:27] <nigelb> next time, take a ferry across the river and you'll cover them all ;)
[09:28] <nigelb> Also, whoever told me - "stay in the city a few days after the party" gave me good advice, only I didn't follow it
[09:28] <nigelb> Flying with a hangover from All Stars party is *not* a great idea
[09:44] <dpm> morning kim0, dholbach, jussi
[09:46] <dholbach> hey dpm
[10:04] <kim0> dpm: hey man
[10:04] <dpm> hey hey :)
[10:05] <kim0> :)
[10:08] <czajkowski> Aloha
[10:08] <nigelb> Daviey: I guess we have a bunch of spam in etherpad notes :\
[10:09] <nigelb> I remember restoring 3 sessions, and I guess you just restored one
[10:12] <dpm> morning czajkowski
[10:12] <czajkowski> dpm: :) hey there
[10:12] <dpm> nigelb, how can sessions be restored?
[10:13] <nigelb> dpm: http://pad.ubuntu.com/ep/pad/view/<session-name>/latest
[10:13] <nigelb> then, go to the scroller there and it will let to restore manually to the last version
[10:13] <nigelb> almost every edit is automatically saved
[10:14] <nigelb> I'll probably get jorge to add some stuff about this next time around in an email.
[10:19] <dpm> cool, thanks
[10:21] <Daviey> nigelb: aye
[10:22] <Daviey> nigelb: If someone does the work, perhaps next time edits will be tied to Ubuntu SSO.. unauthed vistors get read only view.
[10:33] <nigelb> Daviey: I like how you hint on me doing the work ;)
[10:33] <nigelb> Daviey: But that kind of stuff needs *lots* of java coding, I suck at java.
[10:35] <Daviey> nigelb: nah, it's all server side javascript for that part :P
[10:35] <nigelb> Daviey: hehe
[10:36] <Daviey> nigelb: I'll watch my launchpad merge request folder waiting for a proposal from you :)
[10:36] <nigelb> Daviey: I mailed you about something last night, but I can't remember what it was
[10:36] <Daviey> err yeah
[10:36] <nigelb> aha, etherpad, yes
[10:36] <Daviey> Hashtag support
[10:36] <nigelb> yup
[10:36] <nigelb> Is that something post 1.1 in the apt repository?
[10:37] <Daviey> That needs IS to enable the plugin, and i held off nagging them as they were clearly busy with $stuff.
[10:37] <nigelb> I remember you're running trunk or close enough to trunk
[10:37] <nigelb> I enabled the plugins in mine and so did AlanBell, didn't work for either of us
[10:37] <Daviey> how odd.
[10:38]  * Daviey decides who to blame.
[10:40] <nigelb> I think the feature was half baked in 1.1, but that's just my feeling
[10:40] <nigelb> I wish there was an easy way to run this stuff off ~/ instead of installing it
[10:44] <Daviey> hmm
[10:44] <Daviey> there is...
[10:44] <Daviey> you don't *need* to use packages
[10:48] <czajkowski> canonical website sends you your email password in plain text
[10:48] <czajkowski> not smart!
[10:54] <nigelb> czajkowski: the taleo thing?
[10:54] <nigelb> czajkowski: I hate that thing in *so* many ways :\
[10:54] <nigelb> Daviey: oh? Do you have time to help me set it up later today?
[10:55] <nigelb> I want to make the ubuntu theme a little more friendly and include a link to the read-only version
[10:55] <czajkowski> https://bugs.launchpad.net/hr-recruitment/+bug/783392
[10:55] <ubot2> czajkowski: Error: <Bugtracker.plugin.Launchpad instance at 0x8b9a52c> bug 783392 not found
[10:56] <popey> arf
[10:56] <popey> private bug that'll be
[10:56] <nigelb> Its an external software that's customized for Canonical and its hooked to Hr systems I'm told. I asked people why they wanted to buy something.
[10:57] <czajkowski> popey: marked it as s security issue
[10:57] <nigelb> ah, no wonder I couldn't see the bug
[10:57] <nigelb> but I'm not sure if LP should 404 on that :/
[10:57] <popey> it should
[10:57] <popey> well
[10:58] <popey> I believe it shouldn't
[10:58] <nigelb> it should be 403 right?
[10:58] <popey> but feel free to have that argument with lifeless
[10:58] <popey> no
[10:58] <popey> he (and others) believe it should pretend private bugs do not exist
[10:58] <popey> I am not about to have that conversation yet again :)
[10:58] <czajkowski> makred it for their attention https://launchpad.net/~canonical-isd-hackers
[10:59] <nigelb> popey: if it has been argued before, and by you of all the people, I'm not doing that again.
[10:59] <nigelb> czajkowski++
[10:59] <Daviey> nigelb: sure
[10:59] <nigelb> Daviey: \o/ Thanks
[11:02] <Daviey> czajkowski: I do agree the recuriting website is less than cool, in so many ways.  Ibet it wasn't cheap either.
[11:02] <popey> nigelb: i lost
[11:03] <nigelb> Daviey: I would like so much just to have a community maintained one
[11:04] <nigelb> But unless we let Canonical know that key resources can be maintained by community (hopefully with summit), I don't think its very hopeful at this point.
[11:04] <Daviey> nigelb: well to be fair, there needs to be a gurantee of support and security.
[11:04] <czajkowski> I suspect a HR community summit would not be ideal tbh
[11:04] <czajkowski> be nie to be impartial
[11:05] <czajkowski> popey: I can suscribe you to the bug
[11:05] <czajkowski> so you can see it
[11:05] <nigelb> Daviey: Yeah, I'm yet to a community that does that. Mozilla uses Jobvite too.
[11:07] <czajkowski> issue WONT FIX
[11:07] <czajkowski> hate that bug comment so much
[11:09] <popey> czajkowski: I have no burning desire to see it, but now I have :)
[11:09] <Daviey> czajkowski: What is a better status for a bug that is valid, but nobody is ever going to fix?
[11:10] <czajkowski> popey: added you to the bug
[11:10] <czajkowski> Daviey: cant fixt
[11:10] <czajkowski> *fix
[11:10] <czajkowski> wont is just harsh
[11:10] <czajkowski> and not really good enough for a bug
[11:10] <czajkowski> as its a  bug
[11:11] <nigelb> Wait, did someone Won't Fix the bug czajkowski just filed?
[11:11] <czajkowski> Daviey: or say not under our area which the bug does say, but saying wont fix is just ilogical on a bug report
[11:11] <Daviey> we have bazillions of WON'T FIX bugs, which will judt idle in Confirmed forever because we don't use that status.
[11:11] <czajkowski> Daviey: aye so not a great way to view bugs
[11:11] <czajkowski> nigelb: yes, it's  taelo issue not a canonical issue
[11:11] <popey> I'd say that wontfix is the right one for that bug
[11:11] <popey> its third party code
[11:12] <popey> like filing bugs against the nvidia driver
[11:12] <popey> we _can't_ fix that
[11:12] <czajkowski> aye so we_can't_fix is better than we won't fix
[11:12] <popey> meh
[11:12] <popey> semantics
[11:13] <czajkowski> well not really
[11:13] <czajkowski> I know it's something small
[11:13] <czajkowski> but its just the wording is wrong for a bug report
[11:13] <czajkowski> and narks me off no end
[11:13] <czajkowski> if a customer read that on a bug
[11:14] <czajkowski> in a commercial environment it really wouldnt go down well
[11:14] <popey> ok, so it should be "invalid"
[11:14] <popey> because you have filed a bug in code we dont own
[11:17] <czajkowski> yeah
[11:23] <AlanBell> "won't fix" is a useful status I think, "patches welcome" would also be good, but different
[11:24] <nigelb> But won't fix != I don't have time to fix it, its more like "We don't want to do that in the course of development of this product"
[11:24] <AlanBell> exactly
[11:25] <AlanBell> patches not welcome
[11:25] <AlanBell> and it totally does happen in proprietary environments!
[11:26] <nigelb> Yeah
[11:27] <nigelb> I hate saying this, but at my old work place, I used to use that kind of a status often when closing bugs
[11:27] <nigelb> "This is not something I envision we'll need, won't fix"
[11:27] <AlanBell> they would say something like "thank you for your product improvement suggestion, we have reviewed it carefully and concluded that it does not align with the vision of our product roadmap"
[11:28] <nigelb> You're fairly good at this ;)
[11:29] <AlanBell> it then gets tagged internally as PFO
[11:29] <AlanBell> which is slightly more harsh than won't fix
[11:32] <czajkowski> if we used or wrote that on last jobs tickets we;d get hauled over the coals
[11:32] <czajkowski> too many customers would have issues with that
[11:32] <nigelb> AlanBell: PFO?
[11:32]  * popey notes he said "internally"
[11:32] <popey> Please     Off?
[11:32] <popey> Internal notes about customers are fun!
[11:33] <nigelb> ahhh
[11:33] <AlanBell> please and thankyou are very important
[11:33]  * AlanBell is polite
[11:33]  * nigelb notes that for future internal notes
[11:33] <popey> I once went to get a ticket from the BA ticket desk, woman said "Who is Amanda?' (name changed to protect guilty), I said "She's the woman at the office who books tickets, why?"...
[11:34] <popey> "Oh, no reason". I asked "You have a notes field there with something about Amanda don't you?", "Maybe", "Go on, tell me!"
[11:34] <popey> And she did
[11:34] <popey> lots of horrible comments about the woman I worked with
[11:35] <nigelb> that happens at call centers
[11:35] <nigelb> I've heard of plenty of notes
[11:37] <czajkowski> oh you can make security bugs public
[11:37] <czajkowski> didn;t see that option
[11:38] <AlanBell> ok, so that one should be invalid
[11:38] <czajkowski> indeed
[11:39] <AlanBell> report it to talio and they would probably politely say won'tfix
[11:41] <nigelb> Ok, some people might say its a bad idea, but if czajkowski blogs about it, trust me, it will be fixed soon.
[11:41] <nigelb> If you do it after reporting to taleo, it will more 'proper' though
[11:41] <czajkowski> nigelb: went to lauchpad channel
[11:41] <czajkowski> already poking people about it
[11:42] <popey> czajkowski: how would you file a bug against nvidia or skype?
[11:42] <popey> would you file a bug in launchpad then go to #launchpad and poke people?
[11:42] <nigelb> czajkowski: no I meant the original bug, the one about plain text passwords?
[11:42] <popey> or would you go to upstream, to the people who can actually fix it?
[11:43] <nigelb> popey: she poked lp about fixing the status :)
[11:43] <czajkowski> popey: trying to do 2 things
[11:43] <vish> a lot of websites send the password in plain text when using the forgot password option, iirc even google.. (they send to the email of the account that is registered)
[11:43] <popey> she can change the status of the bug herself
[11:43] <popey> thats not hard
[11:43] <nigelb> I belive won't fix and invalid have a fixed status
[11:43] <czajkowski> popey: trying to work out if there is an alternative status
[11:44] <czajkowski> and also I was going to ask when the role out of the issue they are goig to fix it with is going to happen
[11:44]  * popey wonders how much time you're going to spend on this non-ubuntu non-launchpad bug :S
[11:44] <czajkowski> sorry I mentioned it in here now
[11:44] <popey> hah
[11:45] <popey> Sorry, I didn't intend to irritate.
[11:45] <czajkowski> popey: yer not really
[11:45] <czajkowski> I know you better than that
[11:45] <czajkowski> I'm trying to distract myself from job hunting
[11:46] <czajkowski> as I need a break and filing a bug that way is wrong, plain and simple
[11:46] <czajkowski> and I need to not keep on job sites as I'm starting to go mad
[11:46] <czajkowski> :(
[11:46] <Daviey> czajkowski: bacon sandwich always helps.
[11:46] <popey> Tea!
[11:46] <czajkowski> popey: sorry for snapping
[11:46] <popey> np
[11:46] <popey> \o/
[11:46] <czajkowski> there is no milk in this house unless I buy some, and shops were closed when I came up
[11:46] <popey> Oh, mint and chilli tea is yummy btw
[11:47] <czajkowski> I do have lots of chocolate
[11:47] <popey> http://twitpic.com/4vy4va
[11:47] <popey> http://twitpic.com/4vy4vb
[11:47]  * nigelb hugs czajkowski
[11:48] <nigelb> czajkowski: Canonical job site is really bad from what I've seen, btw
[11:48] <popey> Maybe you should apply for a job on the board of canonical, I hear they've been DECIMATED!
[11:48] <popey> http://lxnews.org/2011/05/16/canonicals-board-decimated/
[11:48] <nigelb> haha
[11:49] <Daviey> seriously?
[11:49] <Daviey> :/
[11:49] <czajkowski> popey: did you close down that board !
[11:49] <czajkowski> :p
[11:50] <nigelb> czajkowski++
[11:50] <nigelb> haha
[11:50] <nigelb> good one
[11:50] <nigelb> OR did you close down their mailing list so they couldn't talk to each other and got frustrated? :P
[11:59] <cjohnston> mornin
[12:13] <mhall119> morning
[12:14] <Pendulum> hi mhall119
[12:14] <mhall119> what's popey closing down now?
[12:15] <jussi> mhall119: the world :P
[12:16] <Pendulum> mhall119: Ubuntu
[12:16] <Pendulum> ;-)
[12:16] <mhall119> oh great, now I'll have to switch to Arch
[12:16] <nigelb> mhall119: oh, just the board oof CAnonical
[14:31] <dpm> jussi, if someone wants to create and keep a new IRC channel, what should they do?
[14:37] <Pici> dpm: Take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/CreatingChannels
[14:38] <dpm> Pici, great, that was exactly what I needed, thanks
[15:34] <Technoviking> jcastro: can we keep using the etherpad for Ubuntu related, but uds docs?
[15:35]  * popey cuddles Technoviking
[15:35] <nigelb> Technoviking: I believe we can :)
[15:48] <AlanBell> Technoviking: go for it, but remember it isn't for permanent documentation, it is a tool for collaboratively drafting stuff
[15:49] <AlanBell> everything done on it for UDS should be on it's way somewhere else by now, generally a blueprint whiteboard
[15:54] <Technoviking> AlanBell: maybe I will create a doogle doc:)
[15:54] <Technoviking> google doc even
[15:55] <AlanBell> what is it for?
[15:56] <nigelb> hey jono, I take it you didn't miss your flight because you were too <insert-situation-here>
[15:57] <jono> hey all
[15:57] <jono> nigelb, nope, got back safe and sound :-)
[15:57] <jono> nigelb, you make it home?
[15:57] <nigelb> jono: yup, got back yesterday, safely. Finished Day 1 of back at work
[15:57] <jono> nigelb, cool :-)
[15:57] <jono> nigelb, was great to meet you!
[15:57] <nigelb> jono: you too! Aaand, I finally made it to a UDS!
[15:58] <Technoviking> how is akgraner doing?
[15:59] <dpm> hey jono, good morning
[15:59] <jono> hey dpm :-)
[16:00]  * popey tickles jono on the chin
[16:00] <popey> c'mere you!
[16:01] <jono> hey popey :-)
[16:01] <jono> kim0, about ready?
[16:02] <kim0> jono: hmm yeah
[16:02] <jono> kim0, we will make it quick as we just got back to work
[16:02] <kim0> yeah cool
[16:03] <nigelb> Technoviking: I'm wondering the same too.  I'm mostly waiting for jfo to show up on IRC.
[16:33] <jono> kim0, ping?
[16:34] <kim0> here
[16:43] <mhall119> Technoviking: nigelb: last I heard they were in Miami, they're probably home by now
[16:44] <nigelb> mhall119: phew
[16:44] <mhall119> I figure after hearing about Ubuntu from her for a couple hours, the docs sent her home
[16:46] <nigelb> mhall119: hahaha
[16:53] <dpm> ok, calling it a day, see you all tomorrow!
[17:05] <mhall119> nigelb: cjohnston and I gave away a CD to a guy at a bar in JFK for her
[17:06] <nigelb> :)
[17:30] <dholbach> jono, ready?
[17:30] <jono> dholbach, wrapping a chat with Rick, one sec
[17:31] <dholbach> great
[17:35] <jono> dholbach, ok, one sec
[18:01] <dholbach> alright my friends
[18:01] <dholbach> have a great rest of your day
[18:01] <dholbach> see you all tomorrow!
[18:01]  * dholbach hugs you all
[18:18] <jono> doctormo, responded to your blog
[18:18] <jono> could you approve it?
[18:55] <jono> jcastro, around?
[19:06] <popey> tempted to blog about how I hate unity just so we can get three in row at the top of planet ubuntu :)
[19:07] <paultag> popey: hummmm.... :)
[19:07] <vish> :D
[19:07]  * paultag posts C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER
[19:08] <popey> heh
[19:09] <paultag> I could back-date a post to put it anywhere in the line anyway :)
[19:09] <nigelb> Is the launchpad blog post broken for anyone?
[19:09] <jcastro> I think we should have popey shut down planet
[19:09] <popey> so tempting
[19:09] <vish> lmao!!
[19:09] <nigelb> haha, jcastro is ALIVE!
[19:10] <nigelb> jcastro: can we please please shut down ubuntu.com on april 1 and have it say "popey shut us down?"
[19:10] <jcastro> heh
[19:11] <nigelb> anyway, I switched to irccloud
[19:11] <nigelb> they are *awesome*
[19:11] <popey> http://teo-en-ming-aka-zhang-enming.blogspot.com/
[19:11] <popey> this person
[19:11] <popey> GRRRR!
[19:11] <popey> subscribes to ubuntu-users, posts utter garbage
[19:11] <paultag> popey: that looks like spam
[19:11] <popey> doesnt it
[19:11] <paultag> but I guess it's not
[19:11] <popey> so i switched on the flag in mailman so it mails me when people subscribe to the list
[19:11] <paultag> but it feels like spam :)
[19:11] <jcastro> popey: you might like my lightning talk
[19:11] <jcastro> delete the world!
[19:12] <nigelb> jcastro: why didn't you add a small note "be a popey today!"
[19:12] <popey> is that why Technoviking deleted wiki.ubuntu.com/gwibber?
[19:12] <jcastro> yes
[19:12] <jcastro> and why vish deleted wiki.ubuntu.com/JorgeCastro!
[19:12] <popey> causing a bug to be filed because the twitter product "gwibber" points there!
[19:13] <jcastro> that wiki page should just redirect to gwibber.com tbh
[19:13] <popey> It *is* a wiki.
[19:13] <popey> thats fine, but it shouldn't _not_ exist.
[19:13] <nigelb> jcastro: you should make clear that wiki.ubuntu.com != help.ubuntu.com
[19:13] <nigelb> and which needs more deletions
[19:13] <popey> given your boss links to it :)
[19:13] <popey> http://twitter.com/#!/jonobacon/status/70183642873339905
[19:13] <jono> doctormo, posted another comment, approve please
[19:13] <popey> "25 minutes ago via Ubuntu" -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Gwibber
[19:13] <jcastro> I would just redirect it
[19:13] <popey> feel free
[19:13] <jono> doctormo, you should really set your blog up to approve posts from previously approved people
[19:14] <popey> +1
[19:14] <paultag> +1 there
[19:14] <popey> I do that, saves a lot of work :)
[19:14] <paultag> help, help, I'm being repressed!
[19:15] <popey> yay
[19:15] <popey> jcastro: broke the wiki
[19:16] <jcastro> ugh
[19:16] <jcastro> working on it
[19:16] <nigelb> jono: http://notalwaysright.com/his-heads-up-in-the-sky-with-diamonds/11576
[19:17] <nigelb> paultag: you too ^^
[19:17]  * paultag waves to nigelb
[19:17]  * nigelb waves back to paultag
[19:17] <popey> pssst jcastro I dont think you can redirect off-site :)
[19:17] <paultag> nigelb: ha!
[19:17] <paultag> nigelb: that's a goodun
[19:17] <jcastro> popey: I think you can, I've done it
[19:17] <jcastro> looking it up
[19:17] <nigelb> paultag: I finally met pleia2!
[19:18] <nigelb> Yay for meeting first few people I talked to on IRC
[19:18] <paultag> nigelb: woo :)
[19:18] <nigelb> paultag: Now to plan on meeting you some time
[19:18] <jono> nigelb, :-)
[19:18] <paultag> nigelb: :)
[19:18] <nigelb> I missed passing that link to dholbach and jfo doesnt seem to be here yet
[19:20] <jcastro> popey: try it now. :)
[19:21] <nigelb> AlanBell: Are you identifying yourself as alan lord accidentally on ubuntu users planet?
[19:22] <nigelb> jcastro: blank page
[19:22] <nigelb> oh wait
[19:22] <nigelb> it worked
[19:23] <popey> nigelb: there are two alans in that company
[19:23] <nigelb> popey: I know, but it seems to work on planet correctly
[19:23] <popey> yay jcastro !
[19:23] <jcastro> ugh
[19:23] <jcastro> really
[19:23] <popey> nigelb: i suspect it's because they use authors
[19:23] <popey> jcastro: works
[19:23] <jcastro> "Users do not have permission on this wiki to delete or rename pages. Doing so can sometimes cause accidental, yet major, problems. This includes, but is not limited to, breaking links within the wiki itself and on the internet, as well as people's bookmarks."
[19:23] <AlanBell> nigelb: I guess they are taking the root feed rather than author feeds
[19:24] <nigelb> jcastro: find ken and fix the twitter's link?
[19:24] <nigelb> jcastro: that'd be more productive really
[19:24] <popey> in the long term yes
[19:24] <jcastro> awesome
[19:24] <jcastro> I can't even delete a wiki page in this project without joining a mailing list.
[19:24] <popey> but right now, the issue is the link from twitter was taking people to a broken page
[19:24] <popey> sure you can
[19:25] <nigelb> popey: yeah, true.
[19:28] <cjohnston> uggh
[19:39] <paultag> hey yo jono, I might be out shopping (I'm cooking for some folks tonight), if there's any way we could push a chat a bit forward that'd be awesome, otherwise I can PM you my (real) phone number and we can do that
[19:40] <paultag> I know it's in a while, just giving a heads up
[19:41] <jono> paultag, you mean later?
[19:41] <jono> paultag, or earlier?
[19:41] <paultag> jono: yeah, in now+3 hours
[19:41] <paultag> jono: push it earlier, if you can
[19:42] <jono> paultag, sure, I am free whenever
[19:42] <jono> free now if you want to hear me eat my lunch while we chat
[19:42] <jono> :-)
[19:42] <paultag> jono: well I never get between a man and his meal, after you're done?
[19:42] <doctormo> jono: Thanks for your great comments, apologies for having to fool you in order to run a test. I think I'm turning into one of those jerk off artists that love messing about with society. ;-)
[19:42] <jono> paultag, sure, will ping you soon
[19:42] <paultag> jono: rock on, thanks!
[19:42] <jono> doctormo, fool me?
[19:44] <doctormo> jono: My post is in transition to explain.
[19:45] <jono> doctormo, what do you mean?
[19:45] <AlanBell> it was a chain yanking post?
[19:46] <doctormo> I'm banging my head on the table because I just wrote the explaination and wordpress ate it. Damn you wordpress!
[19:46] <jono> doctormo, ahhh ok
[19:47] <doctormo> Everyone have a good time at UDS?
[19:47] <jono> doctormo, did the blog entry disappear?
[19:48] <jono> doctormo, it looks like the entire blog entry just vanished
[19:49] <mhall119> yeah, I can only read it on planet's cache
[19:58] <doctormo> jono: It was in draft while I fixed the eaten text: http://doctormo.org/2011/05/16/plans-for-oneiric/
[19:58] <doctormo> Although I'm serious about adding in that free software definition, it's really annoyed dpic when that disappeared.
[19:58] <doctormo> it*
[19:59] <scott-work> doctormo: hi :)
[19:59] <doctormo> Hey scott-work
[19:59] <scott-work> doctormo: do you know anything about a lady sending me an email about linking to an article on my or your website?
[19:59] <scott-work> i think she said she represented you
[20:00] <doctormo> scott-work: Nope, what is her name?
[20:00] <scott-work> jono: remember me asking you to help with some drums on a track of mine?  a bud got me hooked up, here it is currently:  http://www.cirruscomms.com.au/~stuzz78/oggs/scottl-shit_for_brains.ogg
[20:00] <scott-work> still need to rework the vocals
[20:01] <scott-work> doctormo: sarah miller from article writing services
[20:02] <doctormo> scott-work: Any links? nothing is ringing a bell, I did talk to libre graphics magazine about doing an article, that's about it.
[20:02] <scott-work> she says i wrote somethign that doctormo.org would like to pay me for if i would include a link in the body
[20:02] <scott-work> doctormo: yeah, i'm been talking to libre graphics as well...they're pretty awesome!
[20:02] <doctormo> lol, then no, ignore it. probably spam.
[20:02] <scott-work> doctormo: right on
[20:02] <nigelb> if that's spam, gosh, I wonder what can filter it properly. They are getting quite smart
[20:03] <scott-work> by the way, anyone is obviously free to listen to my link above and offer thoughts, comments, criticisms
[20:03] <scott-work> nigelb: if it hadn't included doctormo 's name i would have deleted it long ago
[20:04] <nigelb> scott-work: I know, which why I said its getting smarter
[20:04] <doctormo> scott-work: I'll pay you a fixed wizardpen ppa for a link to celticdarkness.com :-D
[20:04] <nigelb> I'm sure this is something that pulls comments logs from doctormo's blog and figure's out who's who and does some stuff
[20:04] <nigelb> haha
[20:04] <scott-work> doctormo: lol
[20:05] <doctormo> nigelb: I'm surprised it makes any sense at all if it pulls up logs from my blog ;-)
[20:06] <doctormo> scott-work: That spam reminded me to post a message to their submissions.
[20:10] <jono> doctormo, you...my friend...are weird
[20:10] <jono> I don't get why you did that
[20:10] <jono> I don't see the purpose
[20:10] <doctormo> jono: Yes, I am weird.
[20:11] <jono> so are you moving away from 11.10 or not?
[20:11] <doctormo> jono: how can I move away from something that's not released yet?
[20:12] <jono> alrighty

[20:12] <jono> whatever makes you happy, brother :-)
[20:12] <popey> dont feed the troll
[20:12] <popey> :)
[20:12] <doctormo> popey: This troll has a clipboard and is taking notes!
[20:12] <cjohnston> jono probably missed that talk at uds popey
[20:12] <doctormo> jono: Do you like Mumford and Sons? (random weird question)
[20:13] <jono> doctormo, not helping with me "you are weird" assertion :P
[20:13]  * jono joking
[20:13] <jono> never heard of it, doctormo
[20:14] <doctormo> UK folk/rock band, popular at the moment.
[20:14] <jono> ahhh cool
[20:14] <doctormo> popey: I showed your new group around at LGM, lots of laughs.
[20:14] <popey> "my" new group?
[20:14] <doctormo> popey: Well, 'our' new group
[20:14] <cjohnston> jono: could we get the summit and the loco directory blueprints in the work items list please? ;-)
[20:15] <popey> What's LGM?
[20:15] <jono> cjohnston, I need to review them first
[20:15] <cjohnston> ok
[20:15] <doctormo> Libre Grahpics meeting (Montreal) where all the gimp, inkscape, mypaint, font, colour management geeks go.
[20:15] <doctormo> And a couple of artists, magazines and a bunch of creative types who all do weird art projects.
[20:15] <popey> Oh cool!
[20:16] <jono> paultag, about set
[20:16] <paultag> jono: i'll fire up skype
[20:16] <jono> paultag, just added you
[20:16] <paultag> jono: `paultaggs' ?
[20:17] <jono> paultagg
[20:17] <paultag> I might be lagging, let me double check
[20:17] <jono> thats what you told me
[20:17] <paultag> jono: sorry, I lied :) -- paultaggs
[20:17] <jono> bah
[20:17] <paultag> someone took paultag, I was miffed
[20:17] <doctormo> popey: We had an evening in an old printer museum getting tottally sozzeled on french wine and talking about how printing and freedom of the press is just like free software.
[20:17] <jono> I am going to have some random added now :-/
[20:17] <paultag> jono: it'll be OK, chances are slim that's actually an ID
[20:17] <jono> paultag, I searched, it was
[20:17] <jono> no biggie
[20:17] <paultag> iirc skype won't fail out on a bumb nick
[20:17] <paultag> oh shucks
[20:17] <popey> I'm guessing they weren't the kind of printers I'm thinking?
[20:18] <paultag> jono: my fault, sorry
[20:18] <popey> Epson FX-80
[20:18] <jono> paultag, np
[20:18] <jono> paultag, all set?
[20:18] <paultag> jono: all set, let's rock
[20:18] <doctormo> popey: They had lots of different kinds. We tried out the flat press and the roller press.
[20:36] <Technoviking> popey: sorry, I was mad with power
[20:46] <jono> paultag, good chatting :-)
[20:48] <paultag> jono: back atcha :)
[20:48] <jono> :-)
[20:53] <doctormo> paultag: Did you sort out what to do about the bug issue?
[20:54] <doctormo> bug #1 issue.
[20:54] <ubot2> doctormo: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 (Not reporting large bug)
[20:58] <paultag> doctormo: no, i've not. I don't like the way it was edited (not so much the content) so I restored it. If someone wants to change it (which I support), they should go to the community council
[20:59] <doctormo> paultag: OK, I'll put the issue to one side for now then.
[20:59] <paultag> I don't have the time for that fight, but it's actually not a bad idea. If someone cares enough, they should do it
[20:59] <paultag> doctormo: if you feel like going for it I'll head to the meetings with you
[20:59] <paultag> like I mentioned, I agree, I just disagree with how it was approached
[21:01] <doctormo> paultag: I meant about the user who posted it.
[21:02] <paultag> doctormo: the LP account was reported, hopefully we won't see a repeat of that. That person should think long and hard about where they stand
[21:02] <paultag> I sent him/her a biting email about procedure, never heard anything back
[21:13] <doctormo> okay
[22:03] <nigelb> paultag: Nice blog post :)
[22:03] <nigelb> ipopey: on the iPad?
[22:03] <nigelb> ipopey: I'm curious, is etherpad broken on just the ipad or also on safari?
[22:07] <ipopey> It has never worked on iPad
[22:13] <nigelb> ipopey: no, I meant isn't just on the ipad or does it work on a normal safari (on mac/windows)
[22:13] <nigelb> ipopey: daviey has upstream commit and I've pushed in a few fixes, so if its something nontrivial, perhaps, I'd like to take a poke
[22:14] <ipopey> Safari on iPad is not the same as safari on osx
[22:14] <AlanBell> nigelb: the ipad doesn't support contenteditable
[22:15] <paultag> nigelb: we're not done yet :P
[22:15] <nigelb> AlanBell: aw :(
[22:15] <paultag> nigelb: it's not that good of a post, it's sorta just saying we suck at thanking people
[22:15] <nigelb> paultag: I know, can you channel that into hall of fame? ;)
[22:17] <paultag> it'll get good once we have a good solution
[22:17] <jono> paultag, nice blog entry :-)
[22:17] <paultag> nigelb: mhall119 said the same thing
[22:18] <paultag> nigelb: I don't like the HoF for this, the HoF is so inpersonal and robotic, and it's more of a stats board
[22:18] <paultag> jono: thanks :)
[22:18] <head_victim> paultag: +1 on a good blog. I've found just saying thanks to people you come into contact with when required helps out a lot. I learnt that at work, where no one talks to you unless you've stuffed up.
[22:18] <paultag> nigelb: in a perfect world we could have a thank-you site where users can say how much they love you
[22:18] <paultag> head_victim: aye!
[22:19] <head_victim> I sent a link to the HoF to my loco because one of the team members made it on there
[22:19] <nigelb> paultag: I'll summarize the situation for you.  We have summit, loco directory, and hall of fame.  At this point, we have about 7 people active in total in 3 projects
[22:19] <paultag> head_victim: woo! It's always awesome to see your name up in lights (even if it's from an algorithm) :)
[22:19] <paultag> nigelb: yeah I know. You forgot team reports app too
[22:19] <head_victim> paultag: public acknowledgement of a job well done goes a long way if it's put in the right context.
[22:19] <paultag> 7 in 4 :)
[22:19] <paultag> head_victim: for sure
[22:20] <nigelb> paultag: aha, that one too, I still think I'm forgetting one more
[22:20] <AlanBell> work items?
[22:20] <nigelb> yeah status.ubuntu.com which is upcoming
[22:21] <mhall119> paultag: team reports app is owner-less atm, I think
[22:22] <paultag> mhall119: I think so too. I was thinking about getting it stable again, then I looked at my todo list :)
[22:22] <paultag> mhall119: It's on my radar, though
[22:22] <mhall119> paultag: I think we can make HoF more personal, and less robotic, if you care to help brainstorm on it
[22:22] <paultag> mhall119: the reports would really help locos so that's the biggest blip in that group
[22:22] <paultag> mhall119: yeah for sure
[22:22] <mhall119> heh, yeah, i attended only 6 sessions at UDS, and still my list of action items is longer than it was last cycle
[22:22] <paultag> mhall119: do you see what you get for going to UDS>
[22:22] <paultag> sed s/>/?/g
[22:23] <head_victim> I am having troubles passing on the loco team reports to someone else because it's a bit confusing for people less in the know with wikis
[22:23] <mhall119> technically I went to an ISD sprint, but I somehow ended up with UDS action items
[22:23] <paultag> head_victim: aye, that's why this webapp really would be awesome to finish up
[22:23]  * mhall119 blames nigelb and cjohnston
[22:23] <paultag> mhall119: haha, aye, fail
[22:23] <head_victim> paultag: I'm willing to help but unfortunately only in ideas, I can't code my way out of a paper bag.
[22:23] <nigelb> mhall119: I took ownership at UDS :/
[22:23] <head_victim> Even if it's just testing.
[22:23] <paultag> head_victim: awesome! Think you can help get some ideas on the HoF (first)?
[22:24] <paultag> head_victim: since loco team report-app is pretty stock
[22:25] <head_victim> paultag: I wish more people (me included) used a real picture on their LP, would make that page look much nicer.
[22:25] <paultag> head_victim: for sure. I wish we still used the big photo for cool stuff, seems like that's such wasted potental
[22:25] <mhall119> nigelb: I think "took" is the wrong word
[22:26] <nigelb> mhall119: true that
[22:27] <paultag> OK, time to entertain some professors. Off to finish cooking! One love!
[22:27] <head_victim> paultag: I'll keep thinking and let you know, catch you later
[22:28] <head_victim> paultag: ticker feed from HoF to ubuntu.com ?
[22:28] <mhall119> paultag: using genetic algorithms?
[22:37] <AlanBell> popey: on the ipad does etherpad display an empty window or read-only text?


[11:57]  * ogra moos
[11:58]  * lool waes
[11:58] <lool> *waves
[11:58]  * StevenK beaches
[11:58] <ogra> haha
[11:59]  * NCommander gurgles
[11:59] <persia> OK.  Let's get started then.
[11:59] <persia> #startmeeting
[11:59] <MootBot> Meeting started at 05:59. The chair is persia.
[11:59] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[11:59] <persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090305
[11:59] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090305
[11:59] <persia> [TOPIC] persia's action items
[11:59] <MootBot> New Topic:  persia's action items
[12:00] <persia> Actually running an OEM install without hand-editing the command line is currently blocked by bug #309396
[12:00] <persia> Other than that, it seems most of the right bits are in place.
[12:01] <persia> I've added the arm-library-optimisation and pouslbo packaging to the roadmap, as well as that bug.
[12:01] <persia> I haven't looked at the test cases at all, and will be carrying over that action item.
[12:01] <persia> [topic] NCommander's action items
[12:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander's action items
[12:02] <NCommander> jax10 installer works
[12:02] <NCommander> Most of my other items are carry over however, due to work on the Babbage board.
[12:02] <persia> [topic] StevenK's action items
[12:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  StevenK's action items
[12:03] <StevenK> Bug 335276 filed.
[12:03] <persia> [topic] ogra's action items
[12:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  ogra's action items
[12:03] <ogra> bug forwarded on request of the desktop team (seb128)
[12:03] <ogra> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=574152
[12:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=574152
[12:03] <ogra> attached a stack trace but upstream doesnt seem happy yet
[12:04] <ogra> (oh, and i can finally reproduce it)
[12:04] <persia> [topic] lool's action items
[12:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  lool's action items
[12:05] <davidm> ogra, is it only ARM or does it happen on other arches?
[12:05] <lool> So I gave thoughts to the EC2 architecture I'd use; I looked into the AutoInstall testing in update-manager and it teached me a lot about EC2 and Python bindings, but I didn't spec anything yet
[12:05] <ogra> currently its only arm afaik, the other comments there look rather like red herrings
[12:05] <ogra> davidm, ^^
[12:05] <persia> davidm, That bug is in the roadmap: let's hit details when we get there
[12:05] <lool> I'm busy with other stuff, so I intend to continue research around the next week
[12:05] <davidm> thanks ogra
[12:05] <lool> (done)
[12:06] <persia> lool, Do you need the action item carried, or does it belong somewhere else?
[12:06] <ogra> davidm, it might be though that its caused by a) the FSL kernel we use missing something or b) by the way we set up the rootfs, i wil find out both soon :)
[12:06] <lool> persia: Let's keep it in the specs list, without any pointer?
[12:06] <lool> I should open a dummy blueprint for it
[12:06] <NCommander> ogra, try grepping the source for ppoll/pselect
[12:07] <persia> Opening the dummy blueprint was the action item.  I'll carry it over.
[12:07] <persia> OK.  Moving on
[12:07] <persia> [topic] Roadmap review
[12:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Roadmap review
[12:07] <lool> Well what I said last week is that I would *spec* it  :-)
[12:07] <persia> [topic] offline-installer
[12:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  offline-installer
[12:07] <lool> But it was before the OMG lot's of stuff to do
[12:08] <ogra> yeah, last week somewhat changed all our schedules
[12:08] <ogra> err, no changes
[12:08] <persia> [topic] unr-handling-jaunty
[12:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  unr-handling-jaunty
[12:08] <ogra> like for all my roadmap items
[12:08] <StevenK> Hm.
[12:09] <StevenK> I'd like to move unr-handling-jaunty to Implemented
[12:09] <StevenK> It's firmly in bug fixing mode
[12:09] <ogra> \o/
[12:09] <StevenK> What does everyone else think?
[12:09] <ogra> ++
[12:09] <persia> Do it then, and drop it from the roadmap.  Congratulations!
[12:09] <StevenK> :-D
[12:09] <NCommander> yay
[12:09] <StevenK> That leaves me with no specs in the roadmap ...
[12:10] <StevenK> Perhaps I shouldn't have announced that.
[12:10] <persia> You can surely find some bugs :)
[12:10] <persia> [topic] arm-library-optimisation
[12:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  arm-library-optimisation
[12:11] <persia> lool?
[12:11] <lool> So some progress here; I'm working on pango1.0 and gtk+2.0 patches which should be done today
[12:11] <lool> Glibc's situation looks better now: the kernel issue is sorted out and it's IS to fix the kernels
[12:11] <lool> I am late in providing a final list of libs we will VFP
[12:11] <lool> ffmpeg-debian will be handled specially
[12:12] <lool> It was intended to be pure VFP build, but instead because the NEON opts are too hard to enable at runtime says ARM I'll look into doing a VFP + NEON build
[12:12] <lool> And not using the vfp trick
[12:12] <lool> It will require rebuilds of rdeps
[12:13] <lool> (done)
[12:13] <persia> [topic] poulsbo-packaging
[12:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  poulsbo-packaging
[12:14] <persia> I've not written this up: I need to catch up with StevenK's bug, but I'm expecting to be in shape for next week, and I understand it ought be implemented in a couple more.
[12:14] <persia> [topic] general-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling
[12:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  general-resolution-for-touchscreen-handling
[12:14] <persia> no change as above
[12:15] <persia> [topic] arm-softboot-loader
[12:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  arm-softboot-loader
[12:15] <NCommander> No change, carry over please.
[12:15] <persia> [topic] selection-of-arm-images
[12:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  selection-of-arm-images
[12:15] <persia> no change as above
[12:15] <persia> [topic] lpia-versus-i386
[12:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  lpia-versus-i386
[12:15] <lool> Nothing new to report
[12:16] <davidm> Should we defer this to 9.10?
[12:16] <persia> [topic] mobile-spec-cleanup
[12:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-spec-cleanup
[12:16] <persia> [topic] lpia-versus-i386
[12:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  lpia-versus-i386
[12:16] <lool> moo?
[12:16] <lool> davidm: lpia-versus-i386?
[12:16] <lool> davidm: It's already deffered to that; it needs to be done in the infrastructure before we build 9.10
[12:16] <davidm> Yes, I was wondering if we should defer the questions
[12:16] <persia> I think we need to have some idea prior to archive-open, so we can influence the toolchain, although I don't think it's essential until next month.
[12:16] <lool> The goal is to change the opt flags just before the archive opens
[12:16] <davidm> Ah sorry
[12:17] <davidm> ignore me please sorry
[12:17] <persia> [topic] mobile-spec-cleanup
[12:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-spec-cleanup
[12:17] <persia> I've not taken any progress here.  I'm expecting to have some time to look at it again next month.
[12:17] <persia> [topic] bug#299847
[12:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  bug#299847
[12:18] <NCommander> Made a little more progress
[12:18] <lool> C test case?
[12:18] <NCommander> Its an absolutely bazaar case because I can't reproduce where the race condition occurs, and if I change the perl code to remove all tests except for the one that fails, it doesn't.
[12:18] <lool> Well it might be that the previous tests break the kernel or something
[12:19] <lool> That's what was happening to some extent in some vfp tests in glibc
[12:19] <StevenK> NCommander: "bizarre", bazaar is the DVCS
[12:19] <lool> NCommander: Start with all tests, remove half, remove the next half etc.
[12:19] <NCommander> Shoo, my coffee is low
[12:19] <lool> StevenK: Oh you're not using bizr?
[12:19] <NCommander> lool, which causes the nature of the failures to change and disappear :-/
[12:19] <GrueMaster> I've also had tests that cause future tests to fail in processor validation.  Could be cache related.
[12:20] <lool> NCommander: Stop removing tests when the failure disappear?
[12:20] <NCommander> Well, the test suite is a framework of intermixed code
[12:20] <NCommander> So to remove a test, you have to change the other tests to update at least for a new reference count
[12:20] <lool> NCommander: In the end it's a bunch of syscalls
[12:21] <NCommander> Yes, well, thats what I'm going to end up reimplementing. A C list of syscalls from top to bottom because I think thats the only way we're getting a C based test case
[12:21] <NCommander> Anyway, I don't except much progress on this until after A6 freeze kicks in next week.
[12:21] <persia> [topic] bug #331510
[12:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  bug #331510
[12:23] <persia> Right.  Seems fix released.  Removing bugs from the roadmap when fixing them is nice, unless you have something to say about them.
[12:23] <persia> [topic] bug #322217
[12:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  bug #322217
[12:23] <ogra> persia, eh, please reload :)
[12:24] <persia> Excellent!
[12:24] <persia> [topic] bug #328167
[12:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  bug #328167
[12:25] <persia> There was interspersed discussion above.  Anyone have anything to add, or shall we move to the next?
[12:25] <ogra> well, nothig to add to this one
[12:25] <lool> "Being debugged"
[12:25] <ogra> upstream has it, i offered more logs on request
[12:25] <persia> [topic] bug #309396
[12:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  bug #309396
[12:26] <persia> Essentially, this is an infrastructure issue only.  We need to use jaunty syslinux, but have to run it under intrepid.
[12:26] <persia> I've started work on a tool in perl that will do precisely that, but it will need significant testing, etc.
[12:26] <lool> LOVELY: the new edit description of launchpad bugs (AJAX-ish one) is really cool
[12:26] <persia> With luck, I'll have something almost-but-not-quite working by Friday.
[12:26] <lool> (sorry)
[12:27] <persia> [topic] bug #280669
[12:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  bug #280669
[12:27] <lool> persia: I find it's a bit of a waste of effort if you need to reimplement stuff because of IS constraitns   :-/
[12:27] <lool> NCommander: ^ that's yours
[12:27] <StevenK> persia: s/intrepid/hardy/
[12:27] <NCommander> Tested with both mainline lpia/i386 kernels, and apw's PPA kernel
[12:28] <StevenK> lool: I don't think it's an IS constraint at all
[12:28] <NCommander> All three can see both SSD devices
[12:28] <StevenK> Anyway, I don't want to have this argument here
[12:28] <lool> StevenK: So why can't we use the jaunty version?
[12:28] <NCommander> With the i386 kernel, it comes up in UDMA/66 mode (no ability to change in hdparam)
[12:29] <NCommander> apw's kernel causes it to come u pin UDMA/100 mode
[12:29] <StevenK> lool: Because the image is constructed on a hardy machine that would be very hard to run a jaunty binary on?
[12:29] <lool> NCommander: and with lpia?
[12:29] <lool> StevenK: So why don't we get a jaunty chroot?
[12:29] <NCommander> lpia was UDMA/66 (same as i386). I forgot to post the dmesg for it however, I'll do that when I get back home.
[12:30] <lool> StevenK: Even if it's just for running syslinux
[12:30] <lool> That seems like a machine effort rather than a human effort
[12:30] <persia> [action] NCommander to post dmesg for jacx10 to 280669
[12:30] <MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to post dmesg for jacx10 to 280669
[12:30] <lool> NCommander: excellent, so apw's kernel improves the DMA mode
[12:30] <lool> NCommander: So we can report back that we want this patch?
[12:30] <lool> NCommander: I think you want to hdparm -tT it though to confirm there's really a change and it work
[12:30] <lool> ss
[12:31] <ogra> ++
[12:31] <NCommander> lool, well, the dmesg comes up differently but I can test that
[12:31] <NCommander> (on apw's kernel vs. i386/lpia stock)
[12:31] <lool> NCommander: Well if it breaks the device under high IO for instance it might be wrong to merge the patch
[12:32] <NCommander> One would hope the hardware would prevent the IO mode from being switched to prevent breakage ...
[12:32] <persia> Hardware doesn't tend to be sufficiently self-aware to have a sense of self-protection
[12:33] <lool> NCommander: I just want to make sure the patch wont break anything
[12:33] <lool> NCommander: Consider that we will use this info to eventually upstream it
[12:33] <lool> NCommander: also, if it makes no speed difference then it might be worthless and erroneous
[12:34] <NCommander> I can run a HDD stress test with say dd and /dev/random to see if there is an actual change.
[12:34] <lool> NCommander: Yes, and I'm interested in hdparm -tT output
[12:34] <GrueMaster> Actually, use bonnie++.  It works great as an io stress test.
[12:35] <lool> Good idea
[12:35]  * NCommander dislikes the notion of extreme HDD tests on an SSD
[12:36] <persia> Well, it's better to burn one SSD getting it right than release something that burns thousands of them.
[12:36] <lool> NCommander: We're only speaking of 5 minutes of stress
[12:36] <GrueMaster> Actually, it is what I used to use to test the drivers when I was at Intel.
[12:36] <lool> It's at the logic level, not at the hardware wear out level
[12:36] <NCommander> RIght, point taken. I'll put it on my TODO, but I don't except to get it until late into next week
[12:37] <persia> OK.  Anything else for 280669?
[12:37] <persia> NCommander, Do you need more actions?  I didn't see more commitments.
[12:37] <NCommander> Put down that I will confirm the change in performance with apw's kernel vs. stock kernels.
[12:38] <persia> [action] NCommander to confirm changes in performance between apw's kernel and stock kernel
[12:38] <MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to confirm changes in performance between apw's kernel and stock kernel
[12:38] <lool> NCommander: (it's tracked via the bug though)
[12:38] <persia> [topic] bug #336770
[12:38] <MootBot> New Topic:  bug #336770
[12:38] <ogra> well, somewhat not my highest prio item atm, but i plan to look into it next week
[12:39] <ogra> babbage is more important to get going now
[12:39] <persia> ogra, Do you need an action, or is roadmap sufficient?
[12:39] <ogra> roadmap is enough
[12:39] <ogra> well, doesnt matter really, we wont meet before A6
[12:39] <NCommander> ogra, it might be just that flash-kernel is in universe vs. main (I dunno if d-i calls it)
[12:39] <ogra> i would like to fix it for A6 but its a matter of time i can put in, the slug install simply are massively time consuming
[12:40] <ogra> and the error only shows up at the very end
[12:40] <persia> Well, that naturally segues into
[12:40] <persia> [topic] NSLU2 enablement
[12:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  NSLU2 enablement
[12:40] <ogra> NCommander, yes, thats what i suspect, but i havent confirmed yet
[12:40] <ogra> persia, right
[12:40] <persia> Is this accurately covered by bugs at this point, or does it still need a special item?
[12:40] <ogra> but since two days babbage enablement is higher prio on my list
[12:41] <ogra> which includes the keyring daemon hang and images
[12:41] <persia> Maybe you want to add Babbage enablement to the roadmap?
[12:41] <lool> Makes sense
[12:41]  * ogra adds
[12:42] <persia> [topic] ARM Benchmarking
[12:42] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Benchmarking
[12:42] <ogra> bah, lool owns it
[12:42] <lool> done
[12:42] <lool> " OliverGrawert, LoicMinier, Michael Casadevall " on it
[12:42] <ogra> yep
[12:42] <ogra> saw that
[12:42] <persia> I'd rather just have one person who is responsible for commenting in the meeting, but that's just because it makes running the meeting easier :)
[12:43] <ogra> well, we share the load on different levels
[12:43] <NCommander> ALl ARM bencharmsk for ARMv5, and ARMv6 done except two graphical ones on ARMv6 (due to monitor issues back home)
[12:43] <ogra> and share the work, each of us works on different parts
[12:43] <NCommander> I'll see if I can get that done sometime soon since the benchmarks left to run take a few minutes, but I need a working console.
[12:43] <persia> NCommander, So results are expected next week or so?
[12:43] <NCommander> persia, results have been up for ages.
[12:44] <persia> Well, except for the two graphical ARMv6 ones :)
[12:44] <persia> Anyway...
[12:44] <NCommander> the ARMv7 benchmarks is depwait on loic's ec2 spec, unless someone else has an idea how to do an archive rebuild.
[12:44] <persia> [topic] Babbage enablement
[12:44] <MootBot> New Topic:  Babbage enablement
[12:44] <ogra> slow progess ...
[12:44] <lool> good progress here :-)
[12:44] <NCommander> painful progress ...
[12:44] <ogra> waiting on the kernel package
[12:45] <lool> I managed to create SD card images which work on any size of cards which the ROM will take
[12:45] <ogra> will work on getting a casper initramfs going today
[12:45] <NCommander> ogra, that won't fly without a merged kernel
[12:45] <ogra> and with luck even boot the suashfs
[12:45] <NCommander> Baseline doesn't have AuFS
[12:45] <ogra> *squash
[12:45] <lool> With a partition protecting the redboot + fis with kernel and initramfs and config
[12:45] <lool> I'm working on removing the need to run redboot to achieve that
[12:45] <ogra> NCommander, getting into an initramfs prompt is my first target atm
[12:45] <ogra> in a casper initramfs
[12:46] <NCommander> ogra, I sent you what I know about running an initramfs
[12:46] <ogra> that wont need aufs
[12:46] <NCommander> lool, if I known you had that progress, I would have made sure FSL had known
[12:46] <ogra> NCommander, right
[12:46] <lool> I found a fconfig utility and a fis utility and am trying them out; the goal is to generate the image with the fis and update the config with fconfig
[12:46]  * NCommander is not doing well with get genernal configuration blackout
[12:46] <NCommander> s/configuration/communication/g
[12:47] <NCommander> I think we need to break it down on where each component stands w.r.t. to enablement (all of us typing at once made that very confusing)
[12:47] <persia> Indeed.
[12:47] <NCommander> Lets go from the top down
[12:47] <NCommander> RedBoot
[12:48] <NCommander> lool, care to fill us in what you managed to do specifically and what's left to do?
[12:48] <persia> We're tight on time.
[12:48] <persia> Rather, could one of you take charge, and put together a wiki page with all the bits, and link to it?
[12:48] <lool> NCommander: Not really, I prefer moving forward and doing the doc pass in the end
[12:48] <persia> That makes it easy for us to go through status quickly next week.
[12:48] <lool> I'm taking notes, but I don't want to document perfectly the intermediate attempts
[12:49] <NCommander> lool, I understand that, but I need to take that to FSL, and say what we've done; we have duplication of effort ATM.
[12:49] <lool> What I had to say as an updated I said already: I can now create a SD image with just RedBoot and a kernel as input, but I still need to run RedBoot on the babbage
[12:49] <lool> I'm working on removing that requirement
[12:50] <lool> I managed to build the target layout which we will use in the released image
[12:50] <lool> Now I need to make that fully automated without the need of a babbage board
[12:50] <lool> What's missing is a redboot binary built by ourselves from source
[12:50] <lool> preferably packaged
[12:50] <lool> That's on NCommander's plate
[12:50] <ogra> but worst case we could go with a binary blob from restricted, no ?
[12:50] <lool> And work on the contents of the rootfs; currently I'm running a plain Ubuntu install on it and it works fine
[12:50] <ogra> if everything fails
[12:51] <lool> (manual debootstrap)
[12:51] <NCommander> ogra, no, GPL problem.
[12:51] <ogra> NCommander, we can provide the source on request
[12:51] <lool> ogra: If we confirm we can really build it
[12:51] <lool> ogra: How can you tell your sources are the sources?
[12:51] <NCommander> That last bit probably won't happen for A6, but I think I can build the binaries before then, then focus on getting everything packaged and promoted.
[12:51] <ogra> lool, yeah, indeed
[12:52] <ogra> lool, but as a last resort a package with binary blob and the sources separately can do
[12:52] <ogra> indeed we need to build it once
[12:52] <ogra> i'm counting on NCommander here :)
[12:52] <NCommander> I've managed to build it once, in a dream :-/
[12:52] <davidm> 8 minutes
[12:53] <persia> So again, could one of you volunteer to drive the coordination, and report on it in the meeting?
[12:53] <lool> Oh you mean single reporter?
[12:53] <lool> I'm happy to report to someone so that he can report here
[12:53] <persia> That ought make the meeting go more smoothly.
[12:54]  * ogra takes that
[12:54] <persia> [action] ogra to take charge of Babbage enablement
[12:54] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to take charge of Babbage enablement
[12:54] <persia> So, that concludes the roadmap.
[12:54] <persia> [topic] Discuss moving meeting time to be more convenient for those in UTC-5 through UTC-8
[12:54] <MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss moving meeting time to be more convenient for those in UTC-5 through UTC-8
[12:55] <ogra> for the IRC meeting ?
[12:55] <persia> So, there's been some requests from people in UTC-6 and UTC-8 that this meeting is far too early in the morning.
[12:55] <NCommander> (and UTC-5 :-P)
[12:55] <persia> Nobody in UTC-5 complained to me :p
[12:55]  * ogra wasnt aware we wanted to shuffle that as well
[12:55] <davidm>  We have daylight savings changes happening world wide over the next weeks
[12:55]  * GrueMaster doesn't recall complaining.
[12:55] <davidm> US is this weekend
[12:56]  * ogra didnt complain
[12:56] <persia> So, when do we want it?
[12:56] <davidm> Does anyone know when all of the changes are complete?
[12:56] <lool> I don't care much if it stays one hour long and close to this time
[12:56] <lool> It's lunch time no matter what, but that's ok
[12:56] <ogra> ++
[12:57] <persia> Personally, I see most activity from Australia, the Americas, and Europe, so I'd suggest something like 20:00 UTC or 21:00 UTC.
[12:57] <StevenK> Australia doesn't switch until April
[12:57] <StevenK> Except for Western Australia, but they don't count
[12:57] <davidm> Wow it's an entire month this year to convert over
[12:57] <lool> Australia is in Summer and they walk on their hands, I don't see how we can do anything for these people
[12:58] <StevenK> lool: Remind me to punch you in the kneecaps when I see you
[12:58] <lool> davidm: What happens if we keep the current UTC time?
[12:58] <lool> StevenK: To force me to walk on the hands?
[12:58] <persia> Actually, not converting at the same time is a good thing.  I remember a meeting moving by two hours Australian time once because the people in the US didn't want to change.
[12:58] <StevenK> lool: No, because I can't reach your shoulder
[12:58] <lool> It's fortunate I'm not smaller, or you would have hit higher than the kneecaps
[12:58] <davidm> In the US it's an hour "nicer" to waking up
[12:58] <persia> So, we're *really* tight on time.  Anyone opposed to 20:00 or 21:00 UTC?
[12:59] <ogra> StevenK, his kneecaps might not agree with his heads opinion ... be careful :)
[12:59] <NCommander> No objection, that would be an improvement for us US folks.
[12:59] <StevenK> 20UTC is a little early for me
[12:59] <lool> persia: that's far from now
[12:59] <davidm> lool, meeting would move to 07:00 central time but that is still 05:00 for -8
[12:59] <GrueMaster> StevenK needs his beauty sleep.
[12:59] <persia> lool, 21:00 is nine hours.
[13:00] <davidm> StevenK, what time is 20 UTC local for you?
[13:00] <lool> What about two hours later, 2pm UTC
[13:00] <StevenK> davidm: 7 am
[13:00] <persia> 6am come April
[13:00] <davidm> StevenK, that beats waking folks at 05:00
[13:00] <davidm> Is 21:00 better?
[13:00]  * persia fails to do the math for UTC+9
[13:01] <StevenK> Hah
[13:01] <StevenK> davidm: 8am and then 7. Still makes me say ick :-)
[13:01] <NCommander> StevenK, you should try being in central time
[13:01] <lool> Hey why don't you folks move to France?
[13:01] <GrueMaster> Or PST
[13:01] <davidm> Yea, but it's quite a lot better then 05:00 or earlier
[13:01] <StevenK> NCommander: I like living in tomorrow, you're living in the past.
[13:01] <ogra> or germany
[13:02] <NCommander> StevenK, I don't have 24 hour+ flight times to go anywhere :-)
[13:02] <StevenK> NCommander: Yes, you do. Try flying to Auckland or Sydney
[13:02] <NCommander> lool, personally, I want to move to Alaska .... but that won't do anything good for our call time.
[13:03] <StevenK> Alaska is still -8 or is it -9?
[13:03] <NCommander> -9
[13:03] <persia> -10/-11 in some areas.
[13:03] <NCommander> and Hawaii is -10
[13:03] <GrueMaster> Personally, I vote for monthly face to face meetings in Australia.  Hawaii would work too.
[13:04] <lool> So late UTC is probably the best choice
[13:04] <lool> Which is middle of the night for asia where we have nobody, as persia pointed out recently
[13:04] <NCommander> lool, nobody yet.
[13:05] <persia> Right.  So it's really between 20:00 UTC which can be 6:00 in Australia or 21:00 UTC which can be 23:00 in Europe.
[13:05] <StevenK> And it's the middle of the day in the US?
[13:06] <persia> Yes.
[13:06] <GrueMaster> ~lunch time here.
[13:06] <persia> GrueMaster, You get no sympathy for that.
[13:06] <GrueMaster> none needed.
[13:06] <GrueMaster> My office is 5 feet from food.
[13:07] <davidm> StevenK, what time will 21:UTC be in a month local?
[13:07] <ogra> you work in your kichen ?
[13:07] <StevenK> Your office is in the kitchen?
[13:07]  * StevenK glares at ogra
[13:07] <ogra> snap :)
[13:07] <persia> I'm not hearing consensus, and we're overtime.
[13:07] <GrueMaster> next too  the kitchen.
[13:07] <StevenK> davidm: 6am
[13:07] <persia> [action] meeting time discussion to be deferred to next week
[13:07] <MootBot> ACTION received:  meeting time discussion to be deferred to next week
[13:07] <persia> Please consider it, and let's review again then.
[13:07] <davidm> Good enough
[13:07] <persia> [topic] Any other business
[13:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
[13:08] <davidm> persia, thanks for running meeting
[13:08] <lool> persia: thanks for chairing
[13:09] <persia> I'm not hearing anything.  If you have anything, please add it to the agenda for next time.
[13:09] <persia> #endmeeting
[13:09] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:09.
[13:09] <ogra> thanks
[13:09]  * GrueMaster drags his carcass back to the cave.
[14:03] <persia> Who's here for the Java Meeting?
[14:03] <ttx> o/
[14:03]  * sommer is loitering out of curiosity
[14:04] <persia> OK.  Meeting agenda is (as always) at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting
[14:04] <persia> Nobody raised any special items.
[14:05] <persia> robilad doesn't appear to be present.
[14:05] <persia> slytherin doesn't appear to be present.
[14:05] <persia> ttx, Any updates for maven?
[14:06] <ttx> persia: no. I intended to have a look at the current state in Debian but haven't had time to
[14:07] <ttx> as a reminder, we decided to follow Debian work on this, and contribute missing libraries where appropriate
[14:08] <persia> Right.  Do we still need it as a Roadmap item if we're not actively chasing it?
[14:08] <ttx> persia: I would say no.
[14:08] <persia> Then let's drop it.
[14:09] <ttx> I'll remove it.
[14:10]  * persia frantically tries to finish the task for the next time
[14:12] <persia> Right.
[14:12] <persia> So, the only package remaining in the archive that build-depends on sun-java5-jdk is pj
[14:13] <persia> And the only package that binary-depends exclusively on sun-java5-jre is sunwderby.
[14:13] <persia> Since sunwderby has no rdepends, I'd like to remove it from the archive.
[14:13] <persia> I'm less sure what do do about pj, and need to investigate some more to see if it can be ported to openjdk.
[14:14] <persia> Once those are resolved, we ought to be able to drop sun-java5 entirely.
[14:15] <persia> I seem to remember derby being of especial concern for glassfish.  Does anyone know if there's some reason we need so many derby implementations in Ubuntu?
[14:15] <persia> (we currently have sun-java6-javadb, sunwderby, and sun-javadb-*
[14:17] <persia> I guess not.
[14:17] <persia> Anyway, I'll see what I can do with pj, and file the removal for sunwderby, expecting users to be able to select one of the other two packages of the code if they need it.
[14:17] <persia> OK.  Anyone have anything off the roadmap to raise?
[14:18] <ttx> yep
[14:18] <ttx> I've been working on documentation
[14:18] <ttx> I've written a Java library packaging guide...
[14:18] <ttx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/LibraryPackaging
[14:19] <ttx> this can probably also be useful to non-libraryt Java packagers
[14:19] <ttx> I intend to work on a few other useful resources
[14:19] <ttx> one is a complete list of classes / jars / Java packages in Ubuntu
[14:20] <ttx> it's a little difficult today to find where a given class might be provided
[14:20] <ttx> or find collision in the Java namespace
[14:20] <persia> That latter would be incredibly useful: I've spent quite a bit of time over the past week hunting down to see how many of the jars in an upstream source we already have.
[14:20] <ttx> I'll write a script that takes all packages containing jars, read the contents of each jarfile in there
[14:21] <ttx> and make a big file (one class per line) with class - jar - package info
[14:21] <ttx> so that a quick grep should yield useful info
[14:21] <persia> I've also been reading the javahelper documentation, with it's hints about setting the right classpath and manifest inside each .jar.  Would it be worth it for that script to also check to see which packages would benefit from adding this?
[14:21] <ttx> (ok, maybe some awk/uniq might come handy)
[14:22] <ttx> persia: once ready I'll push the script in LP somewhere so that it can be used/extended/fixed for other purposes
[14:23] <persia> That's enough for me :)
[14:23] <ttx> I also want to create a list of "libraries wanted" in Ubuntu
[14:24] <ttx> then we can complete it if an ITP is in progress in Debian, etc
[14:24] <ttx> but at least list what is clearly missing
[14:24] <ttx> then some devweek exercises could be plugged in
[14:24] <persia> It's probably worth filing those as RFPs, and tracking it that way.  Except for rare cases, I think we'd generally want to add the libraries to Debian.
[14:25] <persia> We could use a usertag in the BTS to be able to collect a simple report of the outstanding ones of specific Ubuntu interest.
[14:25] <ttx> persia: yes. First step is still to make the list :)
[14:26] <persia> Sure.  I'll try to document the relevant BTS wrangling for the next meeting then.
[14:26] <ttx> I'll add related items to the roadmap
[14:26] <ttx> that's all for me.
[14:26] <persia> Individually, or shall we just have one item to add more libraries?
[14:26] <persia> (and a tracking page, etc.)
[14:26] <ttx> one item for the magic script, one item for "libraries wanted"
[14:26] <persia> Right.
[14:27] <persia> I don't have anything further.
[14:27] <ttx> me neither
[14:27] <persia> sommer, You mentioned you were just loitering, but do you want to add anything?
[14:28] <sommer> persia: don't have anything specific... like I mentioned the other day I was thinking about packaging ejbca for karmic, or helping to
[14:28] <sommer> I think it's doable, but I was also wondering if there are other J2EE apps already packaged
[14:30] <sommer> I might have the wrong terminology, but glassfish creates a default domain1, and other packages add themselves to it or do they need to create their own domain?
[14:30] <persia> You might look at libaopalliance-java
[14:30] <sommer> cool will do
[14:32] <sommer> that's all I had
[14:32] <persia> Alright then.  Meeting adjourned.
[14:33] <sommer> thanks persia
[23:58] <st33med> I almost thought the meeting was tomorrow :|