[00:01] <adam_g> m_3: oh jeez, ya..
[00:06] <m_3> there's wiring inside for the EnvironmentConfig to take another path... but the cli itself doesn't pass it thru
[01:09] <_mup_> Bug #922398 was filed: cli should accept alternate config file path <juju:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/922398 >
[12:35] <niemeyer> Good Friday, Magicians
[12:44] <jorge> Hi folks! I would like some help with the same problem from yesterday: juju can't connect to instances when i call juju status. the complete description of the problem is here http://pastebin.com/KkTZkEjv ... thanks.
[13:02] <niemeyer> jorge: WOw, that's an awesome debugging session, thanks
[13:03] <niemeyer> jorge: So if you actually connect to the host, does it close on you like your verification suggests?
[13:05] <jorge> you're welcome. i'm going to try with the ubuntu user and other... just a moment.
[13:07] <niemeyer> jorge: There's another trick worth trying to investigate this as well
[13:07] <niemeyer> jorge: We have a little-known "open-tunnel" commnad
[13:08] <niemeyer> jorge: You can use it by opening a separate terminal, and running the command "juju open-tunnel"
[13:08] <niemeyer> jorge: This will open a connection to the host, and block
[13:08] <niemeyer> jorge: Then, on your first terminal, try running "juju status"
[13:08] <niemeyer> jorge: It should tunnel the command over the ssh session from the blocked open-tunnel command
[13:19] <jorge> niemeyer: this way worked! but, something strange still occurs. The first attempt get error and the connection just is established on the second attempt.
[13:19] <niemeyer> jorge: There's something really bizarre going on there
[13:20] <niemeyer> jorge: Do you have anything in the logs of the server saying why sshd is closing the connection abruptly?
[13:20] <jorge> the first attempt is always closed. the second works (using open-tunnel). really strange!
[13:20] <niemeyer> jorge: Sounds like a networking issue
[13:20] <jorge> no, just these lines indicating opened session and the next second, closed
[13:21] <niemeyer> jorge: Hmm
[13:23] <niemeyer> jorge: Try to ssh onto the machine
[13:23] <niemeyer> jorge: juju ssh 0
[13:23] <niemeyer> (that's a zero at the end)
[13:24] <jorge> ops... looks like it was just luck ... now i'm getting the same error with open-tunnel
[13:24] <niemeyer> With the open-tunnel command live
[13:24] <niemeyer> Ok
[13:24] <niemeyer> So, close the open-tunnel
[13:24] <niemeyer> and try to ssh onto it using "juju ssh 0"
[13:24] <jorge> i'm going to try that when the open-tunnel come back hehe.
[13:25] <jorge> curious, if I leave the machine idle for a while and test the command, works. after the first attempt, stop work.
[13:31] <niemeyer> jorge: It really looks like there's something weird going on with the machine/networking there, but I'm not sure what
[13:31] <niemeyer> jorge: Have you tried to juju ssh 0?
[13:32] <jorge> hum, juju ssh 0 not working...
[13:33] <niemeyer> jorge: What happens?
[13:34] <jorge> the same error. i think because open-tunnel is not alive. i'm trying to restablish it
[13:35] <niemeyer> jorge: Nope
[13:36] <niemeyer> jorge: Please forget open-tunnel for the moment
[13:36] <niemeyer> jorge: It's unrelated to the problem
[13:36] <niemeyer> jorge: What is the error message you get?
[13:37] <jorge> ERROR SSH forwarding error: bind: Cannot assign requested address
[13:40] <niemeyer> jorge: Is that in the first call, or in the second one?
[13:41] <niemeyer> I suspect the TCP port is simply lingering
[13:41] <niemeyer> jorge: Do you have lsof installed?
[13:42] <jorge> second call
[13:42] <jorge> yes, i do
[13:42] <niemeyer> jorge: I think I know what's up
[13:42] <niemeyer> jorge: Your kernel is likely configured to linger TCP ports in a different way
[13:43] <niemeyer> jorge: Are you using juju from source or from the package?
[13:44] <jorge> i don't know about 'lingering' ports... juju was instaled from ubuntu repo, 11.10 oneiric
[13:44] <niemeyer> jorge: Ok
[13:44] <jorge> juju 0.5+bzr398-0ubuntu1
[13:45] <jorge> Linux  3.0.0-12-server #20-Ubuntu SMP Fri Oct 7 16:36:30 UTC 2011 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
[13:45] <jorge> default from ubuntu server 11.10
[13:45] <niemeyer> jorge: Please run "dpkg -L juju | grep 'state\/utils.py'"
[13:45] <niemeyer> jorge: and open this file for editing as root
[13:46] <jorge> hey, i'll be back in 1 hour... sorry...
[13:46] <jorge> and i'll try this
[13:46] <jorge> thanks
[13:46] <niemeyer> jorge: Have a good lunch
[14:57] <robbiew> can anyone tell me why I have a virbr0 *and* lxcbr0 interface now? (running precise)
[14:57] <robbiew> is that related to juju local provider somehow?
[15:04] <m_3> robbiew: juju's still using virbr0 (installed from libvirt)... I assume the other's newly installed along with precise lxc
[15:05] <m_3> they've both got their own little dnsmasqs tho
[15:05] <robbiew> interesting
[15:09] <robbiew> seems if lxc now provides a device, we could drop virbr0, no?
[15:09] <robbiew> just seems to be a waste of resources to have both virbr0 and lxcbr0
[15:10] <robbiew> bcsaller:  hazmat: ^ ?
[15:11] <hazmat> robbiew, precise lxc includes its own bridge?
[15:11] <robbiew> I suppose users can easily disable lxcbr0 in /etc/defaults/lxc , so maybe we have the juju package do that when installed
[15:11] <robbiew> hazmat: yeah
[15:11] <robbiew> hazmat: hallyn said it just recently landed in precise
[15:13] <hazmat> robbiew, cool, the problem is backwards compatibility, i'll try it out.. but for now i'd rather just leave it.. unless its a problem/conflict.
[15:14]  * hazmat fires up a precise instance
[15:15] <robbiew> just thinking folks will get a bit pissy when they see a virbr0 and lxcbr0 created....waste of resources (though small)
[15:19] <robbiew> eh...I guess it's no huge deal...just surprised me
[15:20] <hazmat> robbiew, we shouldn't really be installing libvirt-d and lxc as recommends
[15:20] <hazmat> they only apply to local development
[15:21] <hazmat> installing those packages on orchestra or ec2 machines doesn't serve any purpose
[15:21] <hazmat> local provider usage already checks and warns appropriately if run without required packages
[15:21] <hazmat> SpamapS, ^
[15:27] <m_3> the 'juju-origin: distro
[15:28] <m_3> seems to be the default for oneiric... and it's _old_
[15:28] <m_3> is there any way to bump that up?  or do we always need to use 'ppa' for oneiric?
[15:29] <m_3> my units are going straight to 'start_error' with version 398
[15:41] <SpamapS> hazmat: we should be turning off recommends when juju installs itself actually
[15:42] <SpamapS> hazmat: the idea behind recommends is that if you let your machine install recommends, as most Ubuntu users do, you get the full functionality of the package.
[15:43] <SpamapS> hazmat: so for automated things, usually --no-install-recommends is advisable
[15:43] <SpamapS> in fact we should probably make most charms do that.
[15:44] <m_3> it'd be strange to have different default behavior for apt in the charm -vs- laptop... it should still be an explicit --no-install-recommends
[15:53] <SpamapS> m_3: agreed, I'm suggesting we should consider making that the recommended way to call apt
[15:59] <bac> this page needs to be updated wrt 'charm' vs 'charms' in lp.  the bzr examples fail if you use 'charm'.  should i file a bug, if so against what?
[16:00] <bac> https://juju.ubuntu.com/Charms
[16:02] <SpamapS> bac: done, thanks!
[16:10] <bac> great, thanks SpamapS
[16:23] <jorge> Hi all, i'm back.
[16:24] <jorge> i make a loop to detect what command is juju calling.
[16:24] <jorge> while [ 1 ]; do ps aux | grep ssh | grep juju ; ls /root/.juju/ssh/ ; sleep 1; done
[16:24] <jorge> so, I call juju status or juju open-tunnel
[16:25] <jorge> the result is the following process
[16:25] <jorge> root     29772  0.2  0.1  41176  2712 pts/0    S+   14:22   0:00 ssh -T -o ControlPath /root/.juju/ssh/master-%r@%h:%p -o ControlMaster auto -o PasswordAuthentication no -Llocalhost:33511:localhost:2181<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[16:26] <jorge> if i try to run this command on terminal i get command-line line 0: Missing argument.
[16:28] <jorge> So, when juju tries to connect on localhost in a local port that should be forward to 2181 of instance, the problem occurs.
[16:29] <jorge> if this command is not successful the local port doesn't open ... right? could this be the problem?
[16:38] <SpamapS> jorge: right
[16:38] <SpamapS> jorge: for future reference, btw, you can use 'strace -e trace=exec -f juju status'
[16:39] <jorge> great
[16:42] <jorge> trace=exec works on linux? here i get one error. looking at the man page, there is no exec parameter for trace=
[16:45] <jorge> -e trace=process :)
[16:47] <jorge> execve("/usr/bin/ssh", ["ssh", "-T", "-o", "ControlPath /root/.juju/ssh/mast"..., "-o", "ControlMaster no", "-o", "PasswordAuthentication no", "-Llocalhost:55700:localhost:2181"<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[/* 36 vars */]) = 0
[16:48] <niemeyer> jorge: Ok, should we continue from where we stopped?
[16:49] <jorge> yes
[16:52] <jorge> root@sold016:~/.juju/ssh# dpkg -L juju | grep 'state\/utils.py' /usr/share/pyshared/juju/state/utils.py /usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/juju/state/utils.py /usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/juju/state/utils.py
[16:52] <niemeyer> jorge: So please do the suggested command, and open the file in your editor as root
[16:52] <niemeyer> jorge: Then, find the get_open_port function
[16:53] <niemeyer> jorge: Right above the line temp_sock = socket.socket(...)
[16:53] <niemeyer> jorge: Enter this, on the same indentation:
[16:53] <niemeyer>     import random; return random.randint(50000, 60000)
[16:53] <niemeyer> jorge: Then, try to run juju again, and let me know please
[16:54] <niemeyer> I'll step out to get a cup of coffee meanwhile.. brb
[16:54] <jorge> irght
[17:00] <jorge> the first time I ran juju status worked, now getting the same error.
[17:08] <niemeyer> jorge: Please run "juju ssh 0" for testing
[17:09] <niemeyer> jorge: You're having some fundamental issues there that don't even involve juju itself.. it's failing well before getting into more interesting logic
[17:11] <jorge> well, the first time I ran juju ssh 0 worked. So i ran again and get the error.
[17:11] <jorge> :/
[17:12] <jorge> yes, there is some network problem ...
[17:13] <SpamapS> jorge: is there any way you can run juju *not* on your openstack network controller?
[17:15] <jorge> I tried from another hosts but it didn't work because the difference between versions.
[17:16] <jorge> But, I've won a new host just now! I need to test it ... So, i'm going to install the same version and try juju on it
[17:16] <niemeyer> jorge: Can you please run 5 times in a row and paste the output for all of them?
[17:16] <jorge> when I do that I come back to report here.
[17:16] <jorge> yes
[17:17] <jorge> any of the commands? juju ssh 0 or juju status?
[17:19] <niemeyer> jorge: juju ssh 0
[17:19] <niemeyer> jorge: Is Embrapa deploying OpenStack internally?
[17:20] <jorge> yes, this is a test of openstack ... i want to run some other scenarios, simulations etc
[17:21] <niemeyer> jorge: Very nice
[17:21] <niemeyer> jorge: Glad to see you guys are putting juju to good use there
[17:21] <niemeyer> jorge: Please step by if you have any other issues
[17:21] <jorge> do you know embrapa?
[17:21] <niemeyer> jorge: Yeah, my Dad worked there for most his life until retiring
[17:22] <jorge> I'm trying to use juju to create (or use charms) aiming to set up clusters quickly.
[17:23] <jorge> niemeyer: cool!! so, you are from Brazil?
[17:23] <niemeyer> jorge: Cool, that's something it does well :)
[17:23] <niemeyer> jorge: Yep
[17:45] <jcastro> This charm could use a review: https://bugs.launchpad.net/charms/+bug/919907
[17:45] <_mup_> Bug #919907: new-charm salt-master <new-charm> <Juju Charms Collection:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/919907 >
[17:46] <jcastro> https://bugs.launchpad.net/charms/+bug/918803
[17:46] <_mup_> Bug #918803: charm for python-oops-tools <new-charm> <Juju Charms Collection:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/918803 >
[17:46] <jcastro> this one too!
[18:06] <niemeyer> Hmm, curious
[18:06] <niemeyer> Aha, ok..
[18:07] <niemeyer> https://code.launchpad.net/~yellow/charms/oneiric/buildbot-master/trunk
[18:07] <niemeyer> There are branches with no revisions.. that's ok I suppose
[18:07] <SpamapS> Weird.
[18:24] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Hmm
[18:25] <niemeyer> No, it's working.. I'm clearly doing something silly here
[18:26] <niemeyer> Ah, and I found what it is
[18:32] <adam_g> hazmat: hey, i had a chance to point juju at openstack essex, seemed to have bootstrapped just fine.
[18:33] <hazmat> adam_g, good to know, thanks
[18:38] <adam_g> if we start testing a cloud image on this openstack CI stuff instead of ttylinux, ill probably add at least a 'juju bootstrap' test of some kind
[19:00] <andrewsmedina> someone can explain me what does this juju code? http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~juju/juju/trunk/view/head:/juju/providers/ec2/launch.py#L91
[19:18] <SpamapS> andrewsmedina: the comment above it is accurate as far as I can read it
[19:21] <andrewsmedina> SpamapS: it's not works with my openstack setup =/
[19:23] <SpamapS> andrewsmedina: what version of openstack?
[19:24] <andrewsmedina> SpamapS: diablo
[19:24] <SpamapS> andrewsmedina: we test against diablo daily.. should work
[19:28] <andrewsmedina> SpamapS: here it's returns a unexpected error in ec2 client
[19:28] <andrewsmedina> should be a problem in my openstack setup.
[19:28] <andrewsmedina> I don't know where
[19:31] <SpamapS> andrewsmedina: what version of Ubuntu are you running juju on?
[19:31] <andrewsmedina> 11-10
[19:31] <SpamapS> andrewsmedina: ok, that should be fine. Hrm.
[19:32] <andrewsmedina> SpamapS: how you install your openstack setup?
[19:32] <SpamapS> andrewsmedina: do you have the juju from oneiric, or the one from our PPA?
[19:32] <SpamapS> andrewsmedina: I'm not sure, our IS team set it up for us.
[19:33] <andrewsmedina> SpamapS: from your PPA
[19:34] <SpamapS> andrewsmedina: maybe try updating openstack from oneiric-proposed
[19:34] <SpamapS> andrewsmedina: *lots* of fixes
[19:34] <SpamapS> python-nova | 2011.3+git20111117-0ubuntu1 | oneiric-proposed | all
[19:35] <andrewsmedina> ok
[19:35] <andrewsmedina> I installed openstack from source
[19:36] <SpamapS> uh
[19:36] <SpamapS> why?
[19:41] <andrewsmedina> SpamapS: I create a script like devstack
[19:42] <SpamapS> andrewsmedina: ah ok cool
[20:20] <hazmat> andrewsmedina, the fix for that might not have made it to the diablo release tarballs,  there was an error with the internal group authorization previously in ostack, but i thought it was fixed for diablo though
[20:37] <jcastro> SpamapS: chords, strings, we brings .... charm review pls?
[21:11] <gary_poster> jcastro, hey.  I'm on a squad from the LP team using juju for a project.    We have an internal review process, but we don't know juju well enough to be competent reviewers.  We want to get better at writing and reviewing.  Could we have a juju review mentor--someone who looks over our internal reviews of our charm branches to improve both the reviews an
[21:11] <gary_poster> d the branches?  If so...how would we set that up? :-)
[21:17] <jcastro> absolutely
[21:18] <jcastro> m_3: SpamapS: marcoceppi:  should we just have them tag their branches/bugs with new-charm and ping pong back and forth?
[21:19] <m_3> jcastro: yeah
[21:19] <m_3> jcastro gary_poster: is there any reason for those to be separate?
[21:20] <m_3> those charms should eventually be pushed to lp:charms too I assume?
[21:20] <gary_poster> m_3 definitely
[21:21] <gary_poster> m_3, jcastro, we'll use the new-charm tag and look forward to your help.  Thank you!
[21:21] <m_3> ok, then yeah... charm review queue = { charm bugs, with 'new-charm' tag, attached branch, and New/FixCommitted status }
[21:22] <m_3> you might have to kick some of us to get through reviews a little faster :)
[21:24] <gary_poster> m_3, heh, cool, understood.  Those three people jcastro mentioned are the ones to kick?  and charm bugs, I assume you mean https://bugs.launchpad.net/charms ?
[21:27] <m_3> gary_poster: anyone in ~charmers can review, but most are done by marcoceppi, nijaba, SpamapS, and myself.  yes, bugs.lp.net/charms
[21:27] <gary_poster> awesome, thanks again m_3
[21:27] <m_3> sure thank
[21:27] <m_3> s/thank/thang/
[21:27] <gary_poster> heh
[22:18] <SpamapS> jcastro: reviewing charms now, had to triage bugs this morning. :)
[22:18] <SpamapS> jcastro: cuase charming is life, and life is charming
[22:20] <jcastro> <3
[22:31] <SpamapS> heh.. salt calls servers minions
[22:31] <SpamapS> +1 for mirth
[22:31] <SpamapS> hrm.. people keep making the mistake of starting their charm as a subdir of the bzr branch, rather than just one branch for the whole charm
[22:32]  * SpamapS wonders if there was a recent change that is leading people to this
[22:35] <m_3> all of our charm dev docs/presentations should really assume they've never heard of bzr
[22:36] <m_3> start from scratch
[22:38] <SpamapS> hah, are you suggesting that bzr is obscure? ;)
[22:40] <m_3> I'd never suggest such a thing
[22:41] <m_3> rather that our user-base is so broad
[22:41] <m_3> :)
[22:41] <SpamapS> juju, user base, SOOOO BIG
[22:41] <SpamapS> HUGE
[22:42] <SpamapS> bzr user base, smarr

[22:42] <m_3> really though... the concept of putting even configuration under revision control isn't all that new
[22:43] <m_3> sorry... logic barf... isn't all that old
[22:43] <SpamapS> true
[22:43] <SpamapS> I wanted to make /etc a davfs mount of an SVN server on our servers back when I was wild and crazy and didn't know better....
[22:43] <m_3> ha!
[22:44] <SpamapS> I would have gotten away with it if it hadn't been for you meddling (git) kids
[22:44] <m_3> I still start long-lived hw and libvirt instances with (cd /etc; git init; git commit -m'initial revision')
[22:46] <m_3> itching to move them to juju
[22:46] <m_3> actually excited about the testing stack
[22:47] <m_3> learned a bunch of lessons about longer-term -vs- development stacks already!
[22:49] <m_3> really love to choose instance size per service... that bootstrap node can get expensive otherwise!
[22:50] <SpamapS> m_3: yeah, I'd like to have the option to consider the bootstrap node as available for deploys too
[22:50] <SpamapS> m_3: there's always my old branch which adds --machine to deploy and add-unit.. ;)
[22:50] <SpamapS> Probably out of date now
[22:50] <m_3> right
[22:51] <m_3> 398's not working with 447 clients... I'd imagine your branch pre-dates that
[22:51] <SpamapS> m_3: did you report that as a bug yet? ubuntu-bug juju is all you need to do on the box with r398 on it
[22:52] <m_3> haven't taken time to really isolate it... definitely happens with O running O, and P running P in local and O running O in ec2
[22:53] <m_3> there's a problem with config-get coming up empty (not even defaults)
[22:53] <m_3> but don't know what else is going on
[22:54] <m_3> juju-origin: ppa works around it
[22:56] <SpamapS> We really need to fix the bug where you can't upgrade-charm if config-changed or install or upgrade-charm has had an error.
[22:57] <SpamapS> My dev method for the mediagoblin charm has been juju scp'ing the new, fixed script up, --retry, then upgrade-charm again.
[22:57] <SpamapS> which is t3h lame
[22:59] <m_3> yup
[23:00] <SpamapS> Wow the error message on ambiguous relations is *SO much better* now
[23:00] <m_3> so I'm about to do something... and I want you to talk me out of it
[23:00] <SpamapS> 2012-01-27 14:58:12,782 ERROR Ambiguous relation 'oops-tools postgresql'; could refer to: 'oops-tools:db postgresql:db' (pgsql client / pgsql server) 'oops-tools:db postgresql:db-admin' (pgsql client / pgsql server)
[23:00] <SpamapS> m_3: DO IT YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO
[23:00] <SpamapS> err.. I mean.. what is it?
[23:00] <m_3> config-changed for jenkins just calls install again... I wanna catch certain config changes, and then pass it on to install again
[23:01] <m_3> the only way to do that is to save out the config set every time the hook is called and compare changes
[23:02] <m_3> wow!  yeah, that message is just nice... makes me want to go relate things just to see the message
[23:04] <SpamapS> m_3: config-get is always available, so why even have special logic in config-changed if you're just going to run the installer again?
[23:05] <m_3> only run it conditially based on which config params are passed
[23:05] <m_3> that's what I want to know... which config params were passed to this particular call of config-changed
[23:06] <SpamapS> ah
[23:06] <SpamapS> you want to use it to kick things off. :)
[23:06] <m_3> well... and change the config without a reinstall
[23:06] <m_3> but yes, in general, I like the ability to use 'juju set' to control the service
[23:07] <m_3> add new test jobs
[23:07] <m_3> kick off tests
[23:07] <m_3> etc
[23:07] <SpamapS> juju set charmtester runstuff=(x=$(juju get charmtester runstuff); echo $(($x+1))))  ? ;)
[23:07] <m_3> juju set charmtester add_branch=lp:my/new/charm
[23:07] <m_3> ha!
[23:08] <SpamapS> If only it could feed data back..
[23:08] <m_3> you laugh... but there might be legitimate use for that in some relation vars
[23:08] <m_3> (varnish)
[23:09] <m_3> I totally want a 'juju get' too
[23:11] <m_3> right, like your 'runstuff' above
[23:12] <SpamapS> juju get exists!!
[23:13] <m_3> is it coupled to config-set from within the hooks?
[23:14] <m_3> what's it getting?
[23:14]  * m_3 digs through the code
[23:14] <SpamapS> the values
[23:14] <SpamapS> so you can retrieve what the current value of a config option is
[23:16] <m_3> cool... never used that one before
[23:16] <SpamapS> fairly recent feature
[23:17] <m_3> we're missing config-set tho
[23:17] <m_3> _that_'d be a really useful combo
[23:18] <SpamapS> Yeah actually it would
[23:18] <SpamapS> Hey I had a crazy idea while walking to/from lunch
[23:18] <m_3> I could get my api_token _back_ instead of forcing one forward
[23:19] <SpamapS> what if zookeeper just ran on client machines..and juju open-tunnel opened a tunnel to the machines it was managing, for the agent to connect *back* through
[23:20] <SpamapS> kind of like the local provider works.. but not local. :)
[23:22] <_mup_> Bug #922900 was filed: config-set callable from hooks <juju:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/922900 >
[23:22] <m_3> bug filed
[23:22] <SpamapS> http://ec2-184-73-125-5.compute-1.amazonaws.com/
[23:23] <SpamapS> oops-tools
[23:23] <SpamapS> *ALMOST* ready for promulgation
[23:23] <m_3> hmmm... my charmtester environment of xlarge's would be cheaper
[23:24] <m_3> actually when you think about it, that's a nice thing about the architecture as it stands... the zk node really could be moved around
[23:24] <m_3> might be some security-group nonsense
[23:24] <m_3> and you'd ack the fact that there might be a perf hit with really large infras
[23:26] <SpamapS> I think a service with 1000 units and 2 or 3 peer relationships is going to get ugly to scale up/down because of all the joined and departed churn that will go on.
[23:26] <m_3> that's gonna happen no matter where things live
[23:26] <SpamapS> 1000 nodes running relation-list with 1000 responses all at once :)
[23:27] <SpamapS> m_3: unless it becomes decentralized
[23:27] <m_3> every peer's connected to every other, so it'd be combinatorially explosive
[23:28] <m_3> yup
[23:28] <m_3> what would that look like
[23:28] <m_3> we'd need every node to have a 'torrent map' of the whole
[23:28] <m_3> be a big change
[23:29] <SpamapS> well unless we just used bittorent to keep the map updated ;)
[23:29] <m_3> hey, I'm a huge fan of peer-based infra
[23:30] <SpamapS> anyway, I want to get to the long living 10 unit service before I start thinking about 1000 unit services. :)
[23:33] <m_3> I just honestly think we need to make sure that services with peer relations _also_ have master-slave options so they can scale
[23:34] <m_3> there's this is cool the way it _should_ work -vs- make it work and be stable
[23:39] <SpamapS> hm, should we enforce that readme always be called README or README.* ?
[23:40] <m_3> sure
[23:40] <m_3> it's really not hard to be flexible with it tho
[23:41] <m_3> I _do_ like having the option of README.rst, README.md, or just README
[23:42] <SpamapS> what I mean is, README(\..+)?
[23:42] <SpamapS> so, not readme.txt
[23:42] <SpamapS> or ReadMe.md
[23:42] <m_3> old gnu std used to bug me... but it was useful sometimes in looking at noise that it screamed INSTALL at you
[23:42] <SpamapS> heh, our INSTALL is hooks/install
[23:45] <m_3> but yeah, it's worth asserting emphatically that they should read it :)
[23:45] <m_3> so on this note, it bugs me to see non-hooks in hooks/
[23:45] <SpamapS> I agree on that
[23:45] <m_3> I'd rather bin/ or lib/ or scripts/
[23:46] <SpamapS> but I'm ok with "common.py" or a single "all-hooks.sh" that is symlinked to
[23:46] <m_3> scripts, templates, files for things you're installing elsewhere
[23:46] <m_3> bin/ lib/ for things your hooks are using
[23:47] <m_3> IMO that should be symlinked into bin/all-hooks.sh or lib/common.py... with only the hook links in hooks/
[23:47] <m_3> no biggie of course
[23:47] <m_3> just style
[23:48] <SpamapS> it gets REALLY hard with things like python though
[23:48] <m_3> huh?
[23:48] <SpamapS> now you're adding things to PYTHONPATH .. and hating the guy who kicked stuff out
[23:48] <SpamapS> import common will import ./common.py
[23:48] <SpamapS> as relative to the current python script...
[23:49] <m_3> CWD is pretty set tho
[23:49] <SpamapS> i am not sure its not going to do a readlink if $0 is a symlink..
[23:49] <SpamapS> not CWD
[23:49] <SpamapS> relative to the python script
[23:49] <m_3> right, but some people write wrt __file__
[23:49] <m_3> understand
[23:49] <SpamapS> just so complicated for a tiny win
[23:49] <m_3> yeah
[23:50] <m_3> agree... very tiny win
[23:55] <SpamapS> m_3: nice job on the charm tester thing.. hopefully next week we can work on running charm-embedded tests with it. :)
[23:59] <m_3> SpamapS: thanks!  I'll roll it out to the list once we get a real url... then we can extend it


[04:25] <mapp> hi all
[04:28] <daftykins> mornin'
[04:29] <mapp> sup mate
[04:33] <daftykins> ooh i got my Sopranos bluray set :D
[04:33] <daftykins> even made playback on Linux work, which was easy
[06:59] <bujji> can any one tell me about samba server.
[07:01] <daftykins> i really wish you would use the channel for your *own* country
[07:01] <daftykins> why do you refuse?
[07:03] <bujji> daftykins:i get a quick response here.))
[07:03] <daftykins> what do you need to know about samba that isn't available by google?
[07:08] <bujji> is that windows to linux file sharing system
[07:08] <daftykins> yes
[07:09] <bujji> only for windows
[07:09] <daftykins> what?
[07:09] <daftykins> no Linux to Linux too
[07:13] <bujji> nfs is there right
[07:14] <daftykins> that's an alternative
[07:15] <bujji> mac to linux is that possible.
[07:16] <daftykins> these are really basic questions. research online.
[07:17] <bujji> daftykins:Is there any free server to activate and use.
[07:18] <daftykins> what do you mean by free server?
[07:18] <daftykins> Linux distros are free, ubuntu is free, samba is free
[07:18] <directhex> apple don't use samba anymore in osx, they wrote their own thing
[07:19] <daftykins> SMBv2 and broke it :D
[07:19] <bujji> okey directhex
[07:20] <bujji> daftykins:it means to operate a free server from my windows to linux
[07:21] <directhex> the built-in windows file-sharing protocol is called "CIFS". windows has CIFS sharing and access built-in. Linux does it with parts of Samba. OSX does it with parts of apple's home-built Samba replacement
[07:24] <bujji> directhex:good info
[07:24] <bujji> daftykins:?
[07:30] <bujji> oly:Is there any free server to activate and use.
[07:35] <daftykins> you really haven't even googled 'samba' have you? :P
[07:38] <bujji> daftykins:I had refer that.
[07:39] <bujji> daftykins:For practice i need server to do that...is there any way to get that free sever
[07:40] <daftykins> yeah you install samba
[07:40] <daftykins> !info samba trusty
[07:41] <daftykins> now if you look online you'll find roughly half a million guides on how
[07:42] <bujji> daftykins:can you please provide link.
[07:42] <daftykins> bujji: can you use google?
[07:43] <daftykins> i'm happy to give advice when someone has tried and has an issue, but when you won't even try - that's a no.
[07:44] <bujji> daftykins:hello
[07:45] <daftykins> ...
[07:48] <bujji> daftykins:are you there.
[07:55] <bujji> directhex: is there any way to operate free server from my machine.
[07:56] <bujji> daftykins: https://learn.chef.io/rhel/configure-a-resource/
[07:59] <bujji> daftykins: hey
[08:00] <daftykins> this is an ubuntu channel, that is a redhat link
[08:00] <daftykins> why are you linking me to this?
[08:00] <zmoylan-pi> daftykins you can always mute them if they annoy so much
[08:01] <daftykins> it's not my first rodeo, zmoylan-pi
[08:02] <bujji> daftykins: you are very kind in answer.
[08:03] <daftykins> bujji: come back when you can phrase a question
[08:05] <directhex> right click a folder, "sharing" on windows and "local network share" on ubuntu
[08:05] <directhex> that's literally *it*
[08:10] <bujji> daftykins: I am not able to install subversion in ubuntu.
[08:11] <directhex> how the hell did we get onto subversion?
[08:14] <bujji> directhex: Its a configuration management(version control) tool.I am not able to install this on my machine.
[08:14] <directhex> no. subversion is a source-control system
[08:14] <zmoylan-pi> what error do you get?
[08:15] <directhex> and it has nothing to do with samba
[08:16] <bujji> directhex: its required for file sharing right.
[08:16] <directhex> not in any remote way, shape, or... i mean, i'm struggling here to even comprehend why you'd think that
[08:16] <directhex> i already GAVE you the answer.
[08:16] <directhex> 08:05 <directhex> right click a folder, "sharing" on windows and "local network share" on ubuntu
[08:16] <directhex> 08:05 <directhex> that's literally *it*
[09:20] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[09:22] <zmoylan-pi> morning mammals
[09:22] <brobostigon> morning zmoylan-pi
[09:23] <bashrc> morining reptiles
[09:24] <brobostigon> morning bashrc
[09:37] <foobarry> aw man
[09:37] <foobarry> youngest child has a sick bug
[09:39] <zmoylan-pi> so it'll be a white christmas with all the kleenex :-)
[09:40] <foobarry> christmas is cancelled :(
[09:56] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[10:22] <dutchie> hi all]
[10:35] <bigcalm> Hi kids :)
[10:36] <intrbiz> bigcalm: morning
[10:37] <diddledan> no christmas?!
[10:41] <bigcalm> ?
[10:43] <bigcalm> What's that?
[11:03] <intrbiz> not christmas for another two days
[11:13] <bigcalm> That said, productivity isn't very high
[11:19] <diddledan> bigcalm, speak for yourself :-p
[11:19] <diddledan> bigcalm, I'm busy
[11:20] <bigcalm> I'm busy, but not feeling it
[12:20] <popey> directhex: seen the thread on ubuntu-devel about mono?
[12:20] <directhex> i saw brief mention on irc
[12:20] <intrbiz> well the security of this box has more in common with a colander than a server :(
[12:20] <directhex> but i don't read mailing lists
[12:21] <diddledan> intrbiz, sweet
[12:22] <intrbiz> diddledan: yeh, the joys of ancient software and customers who can't be arsed to improve things
[12:27] <directhex> popey: anything i need to pay attention to?
[12:28] <bigcalm> intrbiz: that sounds like all of my clients
[12:29] <zmoylan-pi> only a few years back we had a windows 3.1 laptop in to connect to web after we found a pcmcia modem.  all the office gathered around to remember how to do it... :-)
[12:29] <directhex> trumpet winsock!
[12:29]  * zmoylan-pi gives directhex a cookie
[12:30] <popey> directhex: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2014-December/038579.html
[12:30] <directhex> i hate replying to mailing list messages from web archives :/
[12:30] <popey> he has a facts a little wrong
[12:34] <intrbiz> bigcalm: hehe
[12:35] <intrbiz> having to use control-h for backspace is tiresome, this ancient database can only work with weird term types :(
[12:35] <diddledan> ew
[12:36] <bashrc> at the risk of revisiting the Monowars I think that as a technology it's fine, but that the patent threats are real. The implementation of Mono went a long way beyond the ECMA specification
[12:37]  * zmoylan-pi opens the shed with the torches and pitchforks ready to be handed out _1_ per customer
[12:37] <intrbiz> bashrc: does the fact MS has spun .net off into a foundation, with an open source core, and Xamarin as a board member, make things better?
[12:38] <diddledan> the monowars were a dark time in history. the resistence sent back in time a lone warrior to defend the mother of the leader of the resistence
[12:38] <diddledan> Connor Johns was, or will be, his name.
[12:39] <zmoylan-pi> and not bingo? :-)
[13:26] <foobarry> poeple on facebook making a big deal about locating a person and reuniting them with their possessions, found them in 10s flat :D
[13:38] <popey> https://twitter.com/czajkowski/status/547022896376586240
[13:41] <foobarry> who watched the apprentice?
[13:41] <foobarry> spoiler alert:
[13:41] <diddledan> don't you hate that. You think you're going for a nice day out in Lahinch and then someone drops the M-bomb. Honestly, what is the world coming to when people start proposing to their loved ones?! :-p
[13:42] <diddledan> in related news, congrats czajkowski
[13:42] <zmoylan-pi> 'nice day in lahinch'... you've never been to lahinch, have you? :-P
[13:43] <foobarry> alan sugar investing in spam?
[13:43] <zmoylan-pi> spam is too expensive for lord sugar, recycled chicken offal is more his price range
[13:43] <diddledan> foobarry, the "meat" product, or the devil's messaging system?
[13:43] <foobarry> does mr cz-tab run l;inux?
[13:43] <foobarry> does he know what drives SEO?
[13:44] <foobarry> sugar claims  to know tech lol
[13:44] <diddledan> is there a link?
[13:45] <zmoylan-pi> he did shift a lot of xt computers...
[13:45] <popey> mr cz-tab runs osx
[13:45] <zmoylan-pi> to people who thought they were buying 286s, 386s an 486s :-)
[14:01] <Azelphur> Anyone know how to set hard drives to spindown?
[14:01] <Azelphur> It's for a NAS so they don't get used super often, and the OS is on an SSD
[14:01] <zmoylan-pi> somewhere in power saving?
[14:02] <Azelphur> zmoylan-pi: server edition :)
[14:09] <foobarry> hdparm?
[14:10] <foobarry> i mean smartctl
[14:10] <Azelphur> looks like the thing to do :)
[14:10] <Azelphur> wat
[14:10] <Azelphur> smartctl is for reading smart data isn't it?
[14:10] <foobarry> yeah :s
[14:11] <foobarry> not had much sleep
[14:11] <Azelphur> hehe
[14:11] <Azelphur> hdparm seems like the thing
[15:19] <bigcalm> Anybody with an SGS5 taken the plunge and put CM on it?
[15:27] <knightwise> hey everyone
[15:27] <knightwise> popey : enjoyed the last show very much :)
[15:27] <knightwise> I'll never get 'dalek racing' out of my head now
[15:27] <diddledan> bigcalm, why not ubuntu? </troll>
[15:28] <knightwise> have any of you ever played with the Virtualbox web interface ?
[15:29] <knightwise> for some reason I seem to be missing the web service.  When I try sudo /etc/init.d/vboxweb-service restart
[15:29] <knightwise> it says the service doesnt exist
[15:32] <bigcalm> diddledan: I'll wait until Feb and buy an Ubuphone
[15:34] <intrbiz> a uPhone maybe?
[15:35] <bigcalm> Sounds a little small
[15:38] <DJones> Is there any preferred dlna server software for an Ubuntu 12.04 server
[15:39] <DJones> I was thinking about MiniDLNA
[15:39] <bigcalm> DLNA?
[15:40] <DJones> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MiniDLNA
[15:40] <DJones> Basically broadcasts video over wifi to a DLNA enabled tv set
[15:40] <bigcalm> I see
[15:40] <knightwise> DJones minidlna works pretty good
[15:40] <knightwise> Plex is also awesome
[15:40] <bigcalm> I use mediatomb - is that the same thing?
[15:41] <DJones> I think it is the same
[15:44] <bigcalm> I don't know if it's the server, but all clients I've seen are terrible
[15:46] <DJones> Just bought a smart tv with dlna capeabilities, seems an obvious choice to set it up on the server since I've already got a stack of video etc there that I normally play on a tablet via ssh
[15:47] <DJones> Although probably mean my wife won't get out of bed once christmas & family visiting is over and done with
[15:49] <ThomasRedstone> getting out of bed is overrated...
[16:26] <KrimZon> i've just installed mate in 14.04 but I don't see a cog in lightdm in order to choose it as a desktop - does anyone know how to fix that?
[16:30] <KrimZon> scratch that, the repo version is 1.6 and i'll switch to 1.8 from a ppa
[16:30] <KrimZon> i've done that before and it worked
[19:31] <DJones> Don't you just hate it when you're making a christmas present for your parent with lots of  old photo's and putting it together brings tears to your eyes
[19:32] <christel> awww
[19:59] <zmoylan-pi> swimming goggles so no tears make it on to the photos...
[20:12] <diddledan> zmoylan-pi: water damage might be considered an extra bonus present
[21:04] <diddledan> yey? http://www.engadget.com/2014/12/22/north-korea-is-suffering-a-complete-internet-outage/
[21:06] <sbutcher> downforeveryoneorjustnk?
[21:13] <diddledan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBoPm_ZJPDc
[21:18] <diddledan> looks like "anonymous" are jumping-into the sony-nk dispute
[21:19] <mjayk> anyone else smell the usa in that ?
[21:19] <diddledan> oh, and idiots are claiming sony made it all up
[21:21] <diddledan> trey parker needs to do a follow-up of team america with kim jong-un
[21:22] <diddledan> and whoever replaced hans brix
[23:02] <diddledan> teehee: https://twitter.com/PaulSzoldra/status/547157936359763968/photo/1
[23:04] <ali1234> what does it mean when all my KMLs are on the exact opposite side of the planet to where they should be?
[23:08] <ali1234> specifically all my POI are just off the coast of somalia
[23:08] <ali1234> instead of being in the UK
[23:08] <diddledan> o_O
[23:08]  * diddledan goes googling acronyms
[23:08] <ali1234> POI = points of interest
[23:09] <diddledan> kml as in gps?
[23:09] <ali1234> KML = XML for google earth
[23:09] <ali1234> yes
[23:09] <diddledan> weird then
[23:09] <diddledan> maybe your kml writer is skewed in terms of time?
[23:10] <ali1234> the answer is: google earth wants lon,lat instead of lat,lon like everything else uses
[23:10] <diddledan> oh ffs
[23:10] <mapito> hmm
[23:10] <diddledan> that's stupid
[23:10] <mapito> my left eye hurts feels like its strained
[23:10] <mapito> grmpf
[23:10] <diddledan> mapito, that was where I was prodding it through the night
[23:11] <mapito> ;]
[23:11] <ali1234> and now i have a map of every mobile cell tower in the country :)
[23:11] <mapito> off to work i go
[23:11] <diddledan> ooh
[23:11] <diddledan> every single one?!
[23:11] <mapito> see you all in the wee early hours
[23:11] <diddledan> how do you know you didn't miss any? :-p
[23:11] <ali1234> yes, the data is a bit behind
[23:11] <diddledan> tata, mapito
[23:11] <mapito> how did you do that ali1234 ?
[23:11] <ali1234> i got it from ofcom?
[23:11] <mapito> ah
[23:11] <ali1234> but their data is using OS grid rreferences
[23:11] <diddledan> >.<
[23:12] <ali1234> and is a giant excel spreadsheet with 140000 lines
[23:12] <mapito> os grid?
[23:12] <mapito> heh
[23:12] <zmoylan-pi> there used to be an android app that showed phone masts
[23:12] <diddledan> why can't people settle on consistent standards?!
[23:12] <ali1234> there are many such apps as the data is freely available
[23:12] <mapito> zmoylan-pi,  pm:P
[23:12] <ali1234> however they all suck
[23:12] <zmoylan-pi> i disagree with you diddledan!
[23:12] <ali1234> i now have it all as nice KML files
[23:12] <diddledan> zmoylan-pi, it was you poking mapito 's eye?
[23:12] <zmoylan-pi> wanting single standards :-)
[23:13] <mapito> heh im bugging him about something hes told me before
[23:13] <mapito> but i forgot
[23:13] <zmoylan-pi> i told you 4 times, i'm not repeating myself mapito
[23:13] <diddledan> zmoylan-pi, not necessarily "one standard to rule them all" but interoperable standards
[23:13] <mapito> please
[23:13] <mapito> il save a note this time
[23:13] <diddledan> zmoylan-pi, shall I poke his eye again?
[23:14] <diddledan> :-p
[23:14] <mapito> ;[
[23:14] <diddledan> you *poke* will *poke* remember *poke* :-D
[23:15] <zmoylan-pi> cabin pressure
[23:15] <mapito> thanms#
[23:15] <diddledan> movie?
[23:15] <diddledan> radio series
[23:15] <zmoylan-pi> radio 4 comedy, funniest thing you've ever heard
[23:16] <diddledan> so, I can't get my monitor going at all today
[23:16] <diddledan> it's dead as a dead dingo
[23:16] <zmoylan-pi> though i still haven't tracked down lawnchair larrys escapade caught on radio
[23:16] <diddledan> zmoylan-pi, is that what the game "leisure suit larry" was based on? ;-)
[23:16] <zmoylan-pi> is this the one that needed a replugging in yesterday?
[23:17] <diddledan> yup
[23:17] <diddledan> I tried unplugging it twice now
[23:18] <zmoylan-pi> lawnchair larry was a man who heard that you could get a better tan if you were above clouds so he attached 10 weather balloons to lawn chair took an airpistol and had 'an adventure' that was reported by aircraft as he drifted through air lanes
[23:18] <zmoylan-pi> get a new one before crimbo diddledan
[23:28] <diddledan> every time I watch this I need to force others to also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxmu1mxK5so
[23:28] <diddledan> it's the new rickroll
[23:29] <diddledan> did I just date myself then?
[23:29] <diddledan> I'm wondering if there are teenagers who don't know what rickrolling is
[23:30] <zmoylan-pi> lawn chair larry http://www.darwinawards.com/stupid/stupid1998-11.html
[23:46] <daftykins> i need to give bujji back to popey, this morning just broke all kinds of rules in my head :P
[23:48] <diddledan> o_O
[23:48] <diddledan> what he done now?
[23:49] <daftykins> allow me to create a transcript of the crazy
[23:51] <daftykins> https://www.dropbox.com/s/es6l9xhvr4hb9d7/shocking.txt?dl=0


[00:00] <ochosi> (we considered exposing both standby and suspend to the user, but it just complicates the UI and we don't even know ourselves what the difference is in reality)
[00:00] <jjfrv8> ok, I'll pay closer attention when testing my laptop to see if I notice a time diff with each.
[00:00] <ochosi> yeah, but frankly for the docs feel free to just add a paragraph that says that we don't *really* know for sure
[00:01] <jjfrv8> but I was just wondering about the difference for both testing and the docs. It's easy to see on a monitor with an LED the differences.
[00:04] <ochosi> ah ok
[00:29] <brainwash> ochosi: should we fix bug 1396804 in xubuntu?
[00:31] <brainwash> keep it downstream
[00:32] <ochosi> nah
[00:32] <ochosi> rather fix it upstream
[00:32] <ochosi> the main problem as far as i can see are translations within the desktop file
[00:33] <brainwash> but the new name will also appear in the settings manager
[00:33] <ochosi> but if you can, please check whether there's already an upstream report and if not, submit one, so i can bring it up with nick once we're both around
[00:33] <brainwash> why would upstream want such a change?
[00:33] <ochosi> why wouldn't it?
[00:33] <brainwash> there is no need to change it
[00:34]  * ochosi shrugs
[00:34] <brainwash> same for xfdesktop-settings
[00:34] <brainwash> which is named "Desktop"
[00:34] <ochosi> that's different though
[00:34] <brainwash> whisker menu is not an official Xfce panel plugin
[00:35] <ochosi> there's no "application" of the desktop that you'd launch from anywhere
[00:35] <ochosi> theoretically we could also try to hide the desktop file from whiskermenu somehow
[00:37] <brainwash> bug 1352653
[00:38] <brainwash> is similar
[00:38] <brainwash> see comment #4
[00:39] <ochosi> yeah
[00:40] <brainwash> so, the entry in http://docs.xfce.org/_media/xfce/xfce4-settings/xfce4-settings-manager.png would be "file manage preferences" instead of "file manager"
[00:40] <ochosi> anyway, fixing it downstream = meh, because of translations in the .desktop file
[00:40] <brainwash> yea, so... what can we do?
[00:41]  * ochosi shrugs
[00:42] <brainwash> "not fixable" :D
[00:44] <brainwash> can't we just provide the translations for it?
[00:45] <brainwash> downstream hacks are ugly :/
[00:45] <ochosi> as you pointed out yourself, it's not just about translations, it's also about the consistency in the settings manager
[00:46] <brainwash> do we care about this?
[00:46] <ochosi> and yeah, i really wouldn't wanna do this downstream anyway (not only because of translations)
[00:46] <ochosi> well, i understand the concern, but right now, i don't have a good solution/idea
[00:46] <ochosi> if i have one, i can take another look, if you have one, feel free to ping me
[00:47] <brainwash> maybe.. in the distant future
[00:47] <brainwash> lets mark it as wishlist in the meantime
[00:49] <ochosi> well feel free to comment that we don't have a good solution but acknowledge the problem
[00:50] <brainwash> I will
[00:52] <ochosi> thanks
[01:09] <pleia2> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-contacts
[01:09] <pleia2> ta-da!
[01:09] <pleia2> need to add details and things, but the list has been created, so yay :)
[01:10] <ochosi> :)
[01:10] <ochosi> nice work
[01:10] <ochosi> i only read the meeting logs afterwards, but i thought you initially didnt want to set up a list..?
[01:10] <ochosi> (cause it might feel deserted/dead)
[01:12] <pleia2> yeah, we'll just hide the archives
[01:12] <ochosi> haha
[01:12] <ochosi> alright, problem solved :]
[01:12] <ochosi> frankly, i did like the idea of having a specific person to contact
[01:12] <pleia2> bus factor was a fair point
[01:13] <ochosi> the threshold of contacting an individual seems lower than to send an email to a list
[01:13] <ochosi> yeah, i get that. but otoh do you really think we'd get many requests?
[01:13] <pleia2> not really :)
[01:13] <ochosi> the low expected quantity of traffic is another argument against a separate list imo
[01:13] <ochosi> it's just overkill
[01:14]  * pleia2 shrugs
[01:14] <ochosi> and after all, who would answer? my guess would be people in -team
[01:14] <ochosi> so why not just add a forward to the dev-ml
[01:14] <ochosi> then at least ppl dont have to subscribe to another list
[01:14] <ochosi> ;)

[01:15] <pleia2> they don't need to subscribe
[01:15] <ochosi> anyways, it's up to you, you're the marketing lead, just speaking my mind
[01:15] <pleia2> I appreciate your input :)
[01:15] <pleia2> we won't advertise it as a mailing list, just giving the email address
[01:16] <pleia2> I think we probably should lock down who all can subscribe, like maybe restrict it to -team
[01:17] <ochosi> ah ok
[01:17] <knome> yeah, restrict subscriptions
[01:17] <ochosi> so it is sort of a foward
[01:17] <ochosi> forward
[01:17] <ochosi> that's a different thing then
[01:17] <knome> it's for the safety if pleia2 decides to disappear one day
[01:18] <knome> and at the same time, a place to keep contacts archive
[01:18] <pleia2> knome: what do you think, restrict who can subscribe?
[01:18] <knome> yeah.
[01:18] <pleia2> ok, doing that now
[01:18] <knome> and moderate all non-member posts, but i guess that's the default
[01:19]  * ochosi shudders at the thought of pleia2 disappearing
[01:19] <pleia2> ok, made it "Require approval" for people subscribing
[01:20] <Unit193> :D
[01:20] <knome> and tbh, the policy should be "no non-xubuntu marketing/team people as subscribers"
[01:21] <pleia2> I dunno, if others are interested I don't see why we can't have them on
[01:21] <pleia2> it's not like our team is that big ;)
[01:22] <knome> but that would mean their replies would be non-moderated...
[01:23] <knome> unless we moderate all messages..
[01:23] <knome> i mean,
[01:23] <knome> i don't want it to become another place for "high" quality commentary
[01:24] <knome> if somebody contacts us because they want to interview us for a, say, tv ad, we don't want jamppa from finland to reply "YEAAAhHH"
[01:24] <pleia2> er, who?
[01:24] <pleia2> only xubuntu team members are on the list, we haz no jamppa from finland :)
[01:24] <knome> jamppa... "a guy" :D
[01:24] <knome> lol
[01:25] <knome> i thought you meant outside xubuntu team
[01:25] <knome> i mean sure, anybody who is interested about marketing for xubuntu
[01:25] <pleia2> oh, no, just xubuntu-team or people who have talked to me re: marketing
[01:25] <knome> but isn't it implied that they are kind of part of the marketing team anyway?
[01:25] <pleia2> who, xubuntu-team?
[01:26] <knome> oh em gee
[01:26] <knome> people on xubuntu team who are interested about marketing
[01:26] <pleia2> yeah
[01:26] <knome> so yeah, welcome
[01:26] <knome> oh, and
[01:26] <knome> please add a work item for fixing the "in moderation queue" email text
[01:27] <knome> we want it to say "our marketing team will get to your message as soon as possible blah blah"
[01:27] <pleia2> when I see subscription requests come in, I'll say, "oh yes, that's ochosi *confirm*" or "oh, jamppa from finland, who is that? *polite decline*"
[01:27] <knome> not "your message is pending"
[01:27] <pleia2> yeah, was just looking for that option...
[01:27] <knome> it is there
[01:27] <knome> on the right hand column on the admin interface
[01:27] <knome> says something about messages
[01:28] <knome> Edit the public HTML pages and text files
[01:28] <knome> hmm no
[01:30] <knome> maybe Auto-responder
[01:30] <pleia2> I shall test
[01:30] <knome> mmh
[01:31] <knome> Text to include in any rejection notice to be sent to moderated members who post to this list.
[01:31] <knome> under Privacy options... -> Sender filters
[01:32] <pleia2> oh, neat
[01:32] <knome> oh
[01:32] <knome> not that
[01:32] <knome> but
[01:32] <pleia2> hah
[01:32] <knome> Text to include in any rejection notice to be sent to non-members who post to this list. This notice can include the list's owner address by %(listowner)s and replaces the internally crafted default message.
[01:32] <knome> but that still only talks about rejection
[01:32] <knome> :|
[01:32] <pleia2> yeah
[01:34] <pleia2> doof, I didn't turn moderation on for non-subscribers (I thought it was default?)
[01:35] <pleia2> now we have a funny thing in the archives \o/
[01:35] <pleia2> go me
[01:35] <knome> :D :D
[01:36] <knome> hopefully not a gif of a cat..
[01:36] <pleia2> I ask about oranges
[01:36] <knome> :D
[01:37] <pleia2> Action to take for postings from non-members for which no explicit action is defined.
[01:37] <pleia2> hm, that is set to Hold
[01:37] <knome> yeah..
[01:37] <bluesabre> hey everyone
[01:39] <pleia2> maybe mailman was being clever, I'll try sending from another account
[01:39] <knome> :D
[01:40] <knome> soon we'll have a bunch of queries about different fruit
[01:40] <pleia2> haha
[01:40] <pleia2> ok, that worked (not go through)
[01:40] <pleia2> now everyone gets 2 messages when they email us :s
[01:41] <pleia2> moderated, and "we will get to you soon"
[01:41] <pleia2> bleh
[01:41] <ochosi> hey bluesabre
[01:41] <knome> pleia2, yeah..
[01:41] <pleia2> maybe we can turn off the you've been moderated message
[01:41] <knome> see PM :D
[01:41] <pleia2> oh :)
[01:42] <knome> hey bluesabre
[01:42] <bluesabre> how are things?  going to try to get some stuff done tonight (finally)
[01:42] <pleia2> well there we go
[01:42] <knome> great
[01:42]  * knome tests
[01:43] <knome> right...
[01:44] <knome> now create a work item to make that message a bit less terse and a bit more warm :)
[01:44] <knome> can assign me
[01:44] <pleia2> go for it :)
[01:46] <pleia2> papple is an abomination
[01:46] <ochosi> bluesabre: i've tried to participate a bit in the recent upswing in xfce activity and submitted two patches to the panel
[01:47] <ochosi> other than that, i didn't really get to do much xubuntu-specific tasks
[01:47] <bluesabre> ochosi: great!  I'll try to catch up to that too
[01:47] <ochosi> (many tasks, gah, tired)
[01:47] <pleia2> knome: hm, looks like it only sends that reply to an address once (I tried to test again, got no reply, but I presume you did?
[01:47] <pleia2> suppose it's no big deal
[01:48] <pleia2> once they've emailed us once they know the drill, no need to tell them we're looking at it
[01:49] <knome> pleia2, umm, there was a grace period bit
[01:49] <knome> let me see if i can find that
[01:49] <pleia2> oh ok
[01:49] <pleia2> I made a thing http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-user-identifies-as
[01:50] <knome> PM
[01:50] <pleia2> thx
[01:50] <knome> so i guess setting that to a week or so could be fine
[01:50] <knome> or few days
[01:50] <knome> or simply 0
[01:50] <knome> or one per day..
[01:50] <knome> see, i'm open to options
[01:51] <pleia2> hehe
[01:51] <pleia2> let's do 2 weeks
[01:51] <pleia2> there
[01:51] <knome> two pleia2's at the pad
[01:51] <knome> o.o
[01:52] <pleia2> I opened it at my desk earlier today
[01:52] <bluesabre> double the writing power
[01:52] <pleia2> my desk is all the way over there
[01:53] <knome> :D
[01:53] <knome> see the pad, a question
[01:54] <knome> pleia2, easier to cross-examine with two questions?
[01:54] <pleia2> maybe
[01:54] <knome> first: How would you describe the way you use Xubuntu?
[01:54] <knome> second: How would you describe yourself?
[01:55] <pleia2> sure
[01:55] <knome> then we could find out how creative people use xubuntu
[01:56] <bluesabre> I use xubuntu at work now :D
[01:56] <pleia2> \o/
[01:56] <bluesabre> and one other person there is also using it.... slowly converting KY
[01:58] <pleia2> "my partner makes me use it"
[01:59] <knome> bluesabre, awesome
[01:59] <ochosi> bluesabre: weee that's great!
[01:59] <ochosi> maybe you can argue for a "free hour" per week to hack on xubuntu ;)
[02:00] <knome> yay!
[02:00] <knome> that idea gets the seal of knome's approval
[02:00] <knome> and traditionally, that's stamped on the cheek of the idea's father/mother
[02:00]  * knome stamps ochosi's cheek
[02:00] <knome> *BLAM!*
[02:00] <pleia2> hahah
[02:00] <bluesabre> :D
[02:01] <knome> pleia2, considering about the unemplyed/pensioner because i don't know if that's useful information for us
[02:01] <pleia2> yeah, I'm not sure either
[02:01] <knome> pleia2, does "humane sector" sound correct to you at all?
[02:01] <pleia2> nope, I have no idea what that is :)
[02:01] <ochosi> ouch
[02:02] <knome> pleia2, like, healthcare, social services?
[02:02] <pleia2> ah
[02:02] <ochosi> yay, i fixed intelligent hiding for the panel \o/
[02:02] <knome> pleia2, job you do with/for humans
[02:02] <knome> versus working on a computer :)
[02:02] <pleia2> I thought it meant NGO
[02:02] <knome> oh, nope
[02:03] <pleia2> I don't know how we call that in the US
[02:03] <knome> maybe we could do one category for volunteers/non-profit organization workers
[02:03] <knome> pleia2, we'll just use the finnish one then, "Sosiaali- ja terveysala"
[02:03] <pleia2> haha
[02:04] <pleia2> maybe "Humanitarian"
[02:04] <pleia2> I clearly don't know what people do for jobs in this world
[02:05] <knome> i happen to know that only because myself and my wife have a degree on that :P
[02:05] <knome> and my sister...
[02:05] <knome> and my sister's husband
[02:05] <knome> and most of my friends
[02:05] <knome> but other than that, me knowing it would be a pure accident!
[02:05] <pleia2> buncha liberals
[02:06] <knome> who said people who work with people are liberals ;)
[02:06] <pleia2> :)
[02:06] <knome> humanitarian doesn't include all kinds of voluntary tasks
[02:07] <knome> am i a humanitarian because i don't ask pleia2 to pay me salary for building the xubuntu website?
[02:07] <knome> btw, this is going deep ;)
[02:08] <pleia2> even paid, helping people tends to be a bit of a liberal thing here, unless people are doing it through their religious institution
[02:08] <pleia2> I had a very long day, going to get eyeballs away from computer for a bit
[02:08] <knome> awwwh!
[02:09] <knome> stop being so liberal and get back to work
[02:09] <pleia2> haha
[02:09] <knome> well, enjoy
[02:09] <knome> let's see if i'm still here when you get back
[02:10] <knome> <- 4am
[02:10] <pleia2> :P
[02:10] <pleia2> thanks
[02:11] <bluesabre> Noskcaj: I've built and installed the package from https://code.launchpad.net/~noskcaj/ubuntu/trusty/xfce4-xkb-plugin/lp-733563/+merge/214365
[02:12] <bluesabre> however, how should the patch function? if I change the system font, that font does not budge.
[02:21] <knome> pleia2, some comments on the pad
[06:38] <Noskcaj> bluesabre, That's how it's meant to function AFAIK. It's been a few months since i tested it, so i'm not sure if it's the patch is fully broken of something else changed
[07:54] <elfy> bluesabre: bug 1396804
[09:14] <ochosi> brainwash: gah, i thought you'd comment on that bug after our lengthy talk about it? ^
[09:14] <ochosi> just to save others from wasting time on it
[13:02] <elfy> ochosi: re that ^^ , seems like a daft reason to not deal with it - orage turns up 3 times if you look in whisker - but they aren't all called Orage only ;)
[13:13] <bluesabre> ochosi: one option is to just hide the file manager preferences (they can still be accessed from within thunar)
[13:13] <bluesabre> as in Hidden=True in the desktop file
[13:14] <elfy> hi bluesabre :)
[13:14] <bluesabre> hey elfy
[13:14] <bluesabre> us holiday, so I'm around a bit longer than usual
[13:15] <elfy> :)
[13:15] <elfy> until bloated? :D
[13:15] <bluesabre> yup
[13:15] <bluesabre> :D
[13:15] <bluesabre> Noskcaj: I'll have a closer look at it, but if that is how it is meant to function, I think that means it does nothing
[13:15] <elfy> heh
[13:16] <elfy> re whiskermenu and application settings - I'd argue the case for NONE being visible tbh
[13:16] <elfy> we don't have abiword prefs in there or x or y or z
[13:16] <elfy> just a couple for some reason
[13:17] <elfy> and if you DID want settings for foo - the obvious place to find it would be in foo's menu somewhere
[13:17] <bluesabre> yes, I agreee with that
[13:17] <elfy> :)
[13:18] <elfy> I'm not completely insane then ....
[13:20] <elfy> bbl
[13:23] <bluesabre> seeya
[13:28] <ochosi> bluesabre: yeah i know, but that's not extremely nice either...
[13:33] <bluesabre> fwiw, typing file manager in whisker and hitting enter launches thunar and not the prefs, so not sure what the user is talking about there
[13:34] <bluesabre> assuming whisker is not random in its activities
[13:36] <ochosi> i guess it isn't
[13:36] <ochosi> btw, i contacted graeme gott yesterday because there is no more bug tracker for whisker
[13:36] <ochosi> and since he just pushed a few fixes and translations, i thought it's a good time to ask
[13:36] <ochosi> also, i offered to set him up on git.xfce.org if he wants
[13:36] <bluesabre> cool
[13:36] <bluesabre> then we could get him a bugzilla as well
[13:37] <ochosi> exactly
[13:37] <ochosi> and from the xubuntu perspective, it sucks to ship something without a bugtracker
[13:37] <bluesabre> glad to see andrew making progress on this issue, https://bugs.launchpad.net/lightdm/+bug/1366534
[13:37] <bluesabre> ochosi: agreeed
[13:37] <ochosi> my guess is he received too many feature-requests or something and then disabled it
[13:37] <bluesabre> I know how that goes
[13:38] <bluesabre> @knome
[13:38] <ochosi> yeah
[13:38] <meetingology> bluesabre: Error: "knome" is not a valid command.
[13:38] <ochosi> can be frustrating
[13:38] <ochosi> :)
[13:38] <ochosi> bluesabre: how much maintenance do you have to carry out on e.g. mugshot atm?
[13:39] <bluesabre> dkessel: you'll be glad to know that I've nearly finished giving concise names to catfish widgets, and will have a clear mapping laid out as well
[13:39] <bluesabre> ochosi: not much, I fix issues as they appear since its tiny
[13:39] <ochosi> cause i was wondering whether we could set up a very basic UI for panel-switch together, i wouldn't expect that to be much maintenance either
[13:40] <bluesabre> yeah, we could do that
[13:40] <ochosi> doesn't have to happen this cycle, but i fear lderan won't get to it (at least he hasn't been around very much lately)
[13:40] <ochosi> i've previously done mockups and i think i have a good idea of how the simplistic UI could look like
[13:40] <bluesabre> will probably be around this weekend.  If you want to make a mockup or throw the glade file together, I can connect the dots
[13:40] <bluesabre> ah
[13:40] <ochosi> basically it's a load/save app
[13:41] <bluesabre> where can I find said mockups?
[13:41] <ochosi> i just realised i might've only uploaded one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/PanelLayoutSwitcher
[13:42] <ochosi> i'd do it even more simplistic now
[13:42] <ochosi> just a listview, no screenshot
[13:42] <ochosi> it's easy enough to switch and try it, a screenshot/preview doesn't help too much i guess
[13:42] <ochosi> it might be that the app itself isn't feature-complete, but that also depends on what we want
[13:42] <bluesabre> fair enough
[13:43] <bluesabre> I think we'll find what we need as we start building it
[13:43] <ochosi> yeah
[13:43] <ochosi> i think that the basic functionality is enough
[13:43] <bluesabre> might come up with a basic zip and manifest file for required plugins
[13:43] <ochosi> e.g. checking for installed plugins would be one feature and issueing a warning
[13:43] <bluesabre> ^
[13:43] <bluesabre> :)
[13:43] <ochosi> but otoh it doesn't really matter you know
[13:44] <ochosi> cause if you're not having a plugin installed, it simply won't show in the panel
[13:44] <ochosi> it's not like your desktop goes down in flames in that case
[13:44] <bluesabre> yeah, but then there will be stupid bugs
[13:44] <bluesabre> "where is the clock? I want my clock?"
[13:44] <ochosi> stupid bugreports/ers you mean! ;)
[13:44] <ochosi> checking for installed plugins might be a pain though
[13:44] <bluesabre> maybe
[13:45] <bluesabre> we'll check it out as we go
[13:45] <ochosi> anyway, if we look into it too much, we might as well integrate it in the panel for real...
[13:45] <ochosi> so yeah, i'd just do a very basic backup/restore thing
[13:45] <bluesabre> ok
[13:46] <bluesabre> if I get time, I'll get a basic implementation together this weekend
[13:46] <bluesabre> should be a piece of cake
[13:46] <bluesabre> or cheese
[13:46] <ochosi> the command-line part of the app is fully functional already
[13:46] <ochosi> hehe
[13:46] <ochosi> cheese-cake!
[13:46] <ochosi> yummy
[13:46] <bluesabre> even better
[13:46]  * ochosi rubs his belly
[13:46] <bluesabre> where is ali's code fo that again?
[13:46] <bluesabre> nv,
[13:46] <ochosi> https://github.com/ali1234/panel-switch
[13:47] <bluesabre> its on the wiki
[13:47] <ochosi> actually the *code* is on github ;)
[13:47] <bluesabre> ok, no reason not to work on that now
[13:47] <bluesabre> :)
[13:47] <ochosi> hehe
[13:47]  * ochosi goes to the drawing board
[13:49] <bluesabre> cool
[13:49] <bluesabre> heading out for family things now
[13:50] <bluesabre> ping me with updates, or any bugs I need to get to... finally getting back into the xubuntu world
[13:50] <ochosi> cool
[13:50] <ochosi> wb then :)
[13:50] <ochosi> i'll ping you with the mockup once it's ready
[14:10] <ochosi> bluesabre: ok, the wiki page has been updated with the new mockup: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/PanelLayoutSwitcher
[14:13] <ochosi> bluesabre: i added a few notes below on how it should behave, if you have questions just ping me
[16:31] <habhatti> hello
[16:37] <GridCube> hi habhatti
[16:38] <habhatti> I'm not sure whether this is a bug in 15.04, but the boot screen is clipped on both sides.
[16:38] <ochosi> habhatti: both sides == left+right?
[16:39] <habhatti> ochosi: Yes.
[16:39] <ochosi> might be a driver issue anyway, unfortunately plymouth isn't very flexible/clever in that respect
[16:39] <habhatti> It's full-screen on 14.04, clipped in 14.10/15.04
[16:39] <ochosi> but if you wanna try another plymouth theme, e.g. ubuntu's and verify whether it works with that, i can take a look
[16:39] <ochosi> a-ha
[16:39] <ochosi> odd
[16:40] <ochosi> well i remember adding support for multi-monitor setups, but i believe i did that pre-14.04
[16:40] <habhatti> dell inspiron 5521, laptop screen
[16:42] <ochosi> right, but the graphics card/driver might be more important
[16:42] <ochosi> but anyway, try a different plymouth theme for starters
[16:42] <ochosi> you could even try the 14.04 theme in 15.04
[16:44] <habhatti> sure, um, xubuntu-plymouth-theme?
[16:49] <jjfrv8> ochosi, got another powerman question for you... http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/powermaninactivity.php
[16:49] <jjfrv8> how come the smallest value you can set "Put system to sleep when inactive for" is 14?
[16:49] <jjfrv8> you can set it lower in Settings Editor, and it does work for that duration, but when you move the slider to "Never", it goes back to 14 in Settings Editor
[16:50] <ochosi> that looks like a bug
[16:50] <ochosi> but yeah, the minimum time is 14 minutes
[16:50] <ochosi> that's a historical setting, not sure why exactly that amount of time was chosen
[16:51] <ochosi> actually <15 is supposed to be "never"
[16:51] <ochosi> lemme quickly confirm that in the code...
[16:51] <jjfrv8> ok
[16:53] <jjfrv8> reason I asked was because I was trying to set the inactivity time to something low enough for the testcase and only way to do it was with Settings Editor
[16:53] <jjfrv8> and then I saw that it went back to 14 when you put the slider to Never
[16:55] <ochosi> ok, so <=14 means never
[16:56] <ochosi> setting it lower worked?
[16:56] <jjfrv8> yes
[16:56] <ochosi> hm, interesting
[16:56] <ochosi> as long as never works as expected, i guess it's ok
[16:57] <ochosi> those who fiddle with the settings via xfconf are on their own anyway ;)
[16:58] <jjfrv8> understand. I'll let efly look at the testcase to see if he thinks it's too messy that way.
[16:58] <ochosi> habhatti: i meant plymouth-theme-ubuntu-logo (if you wanna try ubuntu), if you wanna install the 14.04 package then grab the older version off packages.ubuntu.com: plymouth-theme-xubuntu-logo
[16:58] <jjfrv8> elfy too
[16:58] <ochosi> well at least it's a nice workaround for not having to wait 15mins
[16:58] <jjfrv8> right
[17:08] <elfy> bluesabre: just so you know - thunar prefs it at top of my list
[17:09] <habhatti> ochosi: thanks, I'll try that out right now
[17:13] <elfy> jjfrv8: re testcases - basically we have to test what we have - so if there's nothing between 15 and never - then just write it to match
[17:13] <elfy> as long YOU'VE no bugs when YOU write it - then that's as much as can be done
[17:13] <elfy> hope that makes sense
[17:14] <jjfrv8> yup. thanks.
[17:14] <elfy> cool - thanks for working on it :)
[17:15] <jjfrv8> good learning experience :)
[17:17] <elfy> :)
[17:24] <jjfrv8> efly, I'll redo that little section and probably have an MP for you tomorrow.
[17:24] <elfy> ok - cool :)
[17:25] <elfy> you really should tab complete :D
[17:25] <jjfrv8> gah
[17:25] <elfy> it's ok jjfrv8 - I added efly to my ping list just for you :p
[17:26] <jjfrv8> what an honor
[17:26] <elfy> lol
[17:48] <pleia2> knome: thanks, replied to your comments on the pad
[17:54] <pleia2> social mediaed the Xfce survey links
[17:56] <elfy> hi pleia2 - and thanks - you remind me of a thing to do :)
[17:57] <pleia2> :)
[17:58] <pleia2> watch MST3K all day and make a big dinner?
[17:58] <elfy> mmmm
[17:58] <elfy> acronyms ...
[17:58] <elfy> ha - if only - some simple fare here today :)
[17:59] <pleia2> abbreviation actually ;)
[17:59] <elfy> :)
[18:15] <dkessel> good evening
[18:18] <dkessel> hmm i have this on vivid: when dragging a running application around in the task bar, a portion of the panel (for my it is where whiskermenu is ) gets replaced with a black box that only gets repainted when moving the mouse cursor over it
[18:19] <dkessel> elfy? ;) i know you're running vivid + staging ppa too
[18:20] <dkessel> bluesabre: thanks for working on the widget names. i hope i will get to continuing work on the tests soon
[18:36] <elfy> dkessel: I can't confirm that one
[18:37] <dkessel> elfy: meh
[18:37] <dkessel> i'll try in a vm....
[18:37] <dkessel> hm. happens there too
[18:41] <dkessel> looks like this: https://imgur.com/DHBseQZ
[18:48] <elfy> I'll try in vm - still can confirm here - but this machine has staging ppa and a non-default panel
[18:49] <dkessel> Noskcaj: thanks for uploading the new version of xfce4-systemload-plugin the other day; it fixed a bug for me :)
[18:50] <Noskcaj> no problem
[18:50] <elfy> hi Noskcaj :)
[18:50] <Noskcaj> hey elfy
[18:53] <elfy> dkessel: ok - still unable to confirm on this machine - but can confirm in vm
[18:54] <dkessel> elfy: \o/ any suggestion about the correct package to use when filing it?
[18:56] <elfy> in a word ... no
[18:57] <dkessel> ok i'll take the one that probably directly reacts on my mouse dragging
[18:57] <elfy> not panel or desktop I guess - reloading those doesn't help
[18:57] <dkessel> hmm ok i would have taken panel
[18:57] <elfy> dkessel: just to confirm - you don't JUST see this in vm?
[18:58] <dkessel> elfy: no no... i first (and reproducably) saw it on my real machine. and still see it there.
[18:58] <elfy> okey doke :)
[18:59] <elfy> dkessel: are you running staging as well?
[18:59] <dkessel> elfy: yes
[18:59] <elfy> ok - live doesn't obviously
[19:00] <elfy> so that's both then
[19:00] <elfy> I wonder
[19:00] <dkessel> hmm i'll try moving the whiskermenu icon around and see what happens
[19:01] <elfy> so I added windows buttons - not doing it still
[19:02] <dkessel> hmm funny. it happens to some panel items, but not to all. whiskermenu and the places-plugin get "blacked out"
[19:02] <dkessel> no matter where they are
[19:04] <elfy> not seeing that#
[19:22] <elfy> dkessel: not seeing places blacked out here
[19:22] <elfy> anyway definitely an issue
[19:29] <elfy> ochosi: not sure what to file this against ^^ - effectively it seems that moving something that's in the window button plugin causes the whisker icon to blacken - mousing over it then brings icon back
[19:29] <dkessel> elfy: done - care to confirm? bug 1397095
[19:29] <dkessel> we can always change the package
[19:31] <elfy> dkessel: is your panel in hardware default?
[19:31] <dkessel> no. i added some stuff. but otherwise mostly default i guess. no custom color, size or something
[19:32] <habhatti> ochosi: I couldn't test the plymouth theme from 14.04 - I did an apt-get update today and now there isn't a boot screen at all :/
[19:34] <elfy> dkessel: it's in the same place - at the top though?
[19:34] <elfy> evening habhatti
[19:34] <dkessel> elfy: yes
[19:34] <habhatti> elfy: hi
[19:35] <dkessel> moved to bottom and middle of screen... no change
[19:35] <elfy> dkessel: ok thanks - I'll add some comments
[19:36] <dkessel> fie
[19:36] <dkessel> fine
[19:37] <elfy> dkessel: thanks - commented  :)
[19:39] <knome> pleia2, umm, didn't i do that already? :)
[19:40] <elfy> evening knome
[19:40] <knome> hello elfy
[19:43] <elfy> dkessel: I assume you didn't add staging to the virtual machine
[19:46]  * dkessel checks
[19:46] <elfy> I assume that to be the case - if it's not let me know and I'll unedit the bug :)
[19:46] <elfy> I see it with today's daily
[19:48] <dkessel> elfy: yup, no staging in the vm
[19:48] <elfy> cool
[20:27] <brainwash> ochosi: yes, I did plan to add a comment, like today after work and some testing with xubuntu
[20:27] <brainwash> we cannot hide the entry -> breaks classic menu I think
[20:28] <brainwash> even the whisker one, the entry will be missing in the settings category
[20:34] <ochosi> yeah, question is whether it's really needed though. it's still exposed through thunar
[20:35] <elfy> brainwash: page not found for the gottcode issue linked in https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10656
[20:35] <elfy> evening ochosi
[20:35] <brainwash> mmh, lets remove the settings category again and solve the problem :)
[20:35] <ochosi> hey elfy
[20:35] <ochosi> elfy: yeah, gottcode deactivated the issues on github
[20:36] <brainwash> bad idea
[20:36] <ochosi> i already sent him an email about it
[20:36] <elfy> I just really don't see the need to have thunar preferences anywhere but in thunar tbh
[20:36] <brainwash> but I've reported it on the Xfce bug tracker, so the other report is not needed (did no contain any additional info)
[20:37] <elfy> brainwash: okey doke
[20:39] <elfy> ochosi: the only thing in thunar prefs I could see a need for - removable drives and media - has it's own entry
[20:39] <ochosi> that's a separate desktop file anyway
[20:39] <elfy> yep
[20:40] <elfy> from my pov - if we have thunar prefs, then there's no reason to not have abiword prefs too - etc
[20:40] <elfy> and that would be silly :)
[20:41] <brainwash> the thunar preference entry is meant to be shown in the settings manager
[20:41] <elfy> why?
[20:41] <brainwash> Xfce design decision
[20:42] <elfy> we're not xfce
[20:42] <brainwash> but we use the upstream source code
[20:42] <elfy> any argument that can be made to include thunar pref's - can be made for anything else
[20:43] <elfy> I know that - but we're not xfce - we're xubuntu
[20:43] <brainwash> the entry was not visible all these years.. until we've added the settings menu category back to the menu structure, so settings entries like gparted are searchable via whisker search
[20:43] <elfy> and not being able to use what we provide - whiskermenu - to open something without having to choose from exactly named entries ...
[20:44] <elfy> brainwash: yes I know that - but Xubuntu uses whiskermenu - and it breaks in this instance because 2 different things have the same name
[20:45] <brainwash> it's a problem, but there is no easy solution
[20:45] <elfy> yes there is
[20:46] <elfy> remove thunar prefs for us
[20:46] <elfy> because we're xubuntu not xfce ;)
[20:46] <brainwash> and desktop (preferences)?
[20:46] <brainwash> and other preference entries
[20:47] <elfy> so you're arguing to add abiword and all the other things we use into the settings manager?
[20:48] <elfy> there is no sensible reason to have an applications preferences in the settings manager I can think of
[20:48] <brainwash> no, if we hide thunar prefs entry, then we should hide desktop prefs also
[20:48] <elfy> why?
[20:48] <elfy> can you use desktop as an app?
[20:48] <elfy> I can't
[20:48] <elfy> it's just there doing it's thing for me
[20:48] <elfy> file manager is an application
[20:49] <brainwash> but "desktop" opens the desktop settings window
[20:49] <brainwash> it does not start the desktop managing app
[20:49] <elfy> I'm not going to get drawn into a discussion over this
[20:49] <habhatti-phone> +1
[20:50] <elfy> let's have firefox/t.bird/mousepad/abiword/gnumeric and all the rest prefs in setting manager too
[20:50] <brainwash> we basically want to make the settings category searchable in whisker menu, but exclude all the Xfce related prefs entries
[20:50] <brainwash> ^
[20:50] <elfy> no - not really - but if that's what it takes *shrug*
[20:51] <elfy> if we didn't have 2 different things with exactly the same name it wouldn't matter - but we do
[20:51] <brainwash> people only complained about things like gparted not being searchable via whisker menu, not about thunar prefs or desktop prefs
[20:52] <elfy> that's not a reason to change it :)
[20:52] <elfy> it's just highlighted an issue
[20:52] <habhatti-phone> The duplicate entries for thunar are confusing.
[20:52] <elfy> of course they are - no way to know which is which currently
[20:54] <habhatti-phone> Btw, does your boot screen show?
[20:54] <elfy> no
[20:55] <habhatti-phone> Hmm, well that makes this difficult.
[20:55] <elfy> but, it would if I used nouveau and didn't boot without quiet splash
[20:56] <habhatti-phone> I'm trying to get mine back. It stopped showing after I updated today.
[20:57] <elfy> I rarely see splash screen tbh habhatti-phone
[20:58] <habhatti-phone> It was clipped on the left and right from 14.10+, so I'm wondering whether I should report it. Seems trivial. *shrug*
[20:59] <elfy> I tend towards reporting - but I'd likely test it with ubuntu see if I was to see the same thing
[21:00] <habhatti-phone> Issue is not present in xub 14.04
[21:01] <elfy> habhatti-phone: is this with 15.04? what graphics card is it?
[21:03] <brainwash> ochosi: another idea: we could enable the application description (comment parameter) in whisker menu
[21:04] <brainwash> one "file manager" entry would have the description "Configure the Thunar file manager"
[21:05] <habhatti-phone> elfy: 14.10 and 15.04 - Intel HD 4000 / Radeon 8730M
[21:07] <elfy> habhatti-phone: I'd report it for 15.04 at least, I'd check if you see the same in Ubuntu - more chance of getting it fixed if it's seen there
[21:08] <habhatti-phone> elfy: ok, thanks. I'll install Ubuntu and check.
[21:08] <elfy> habhatti-phone: is this hardware or vm?
[21:09] <habhatti-phone> elfy: hardware
[21:09] <elfy> not sure I'd go so far as to actually install ubuntu to check :)
[21:09] <brainwash> ochosi: not the best idea, but it would make the menu more newbie friendly which could be somewhat nice
[21:10] <elfy> brainwash: if we're going to just fiddle with names then what's wrong with File Manager Preferences
[21:10] <habhatti-phone> elfy: Curiosity killed the tester. ;-)
[21:10] <elfy> or what it 'appears' to be called
[21:10] <elfy> habhatti-phone: lol
[21:10] <brainwash> elfy: consistency seems to be problem
[21:11] <brainwash> and translations issues
[21:11] <elfy> yep - point
[21:11] <elfy> I still think we shouldn't show it at all though ;)
[21:11] <brainwash> yes, this is a valid solution
[21:16] <elfy> mmm
[21:16] <elfy> this solution though still has us randomly having this setting entry for an app ;)