[00:00] <DPic> i redirected https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Reorganization to the appropriate meeting minutes page
[00:01] <johnvilsack> Excellent!
[00:02] <johnvilsack> Ok folks!  Welcome to the Ubuntu Community Marketing Team meeting!  My name is John Vilsack and I will be moderating tonight's entertainment. :)
[00:03] <johnvilsack> Over the next hour, I'd like us to have an open discussion about the direction we'd like to take marketing as a community team, and what we can do to help provide more tools for our enthusiastic members throughout the world.
[00:03] <johnvilsack> If you are a part of our mailing list, you will have seen the agenda I sent out earlier today.  I'll cover it briefly.
[00:04] <johnvilsack> First, I'd like to give you all an update as to what has gone on since I became more active in trying to help us get better organized.
[00:05] <johnvilsack> After that, I'd like to open the floor for three topics one after another: How to improve on being more accessible to volunteers, how to make the data and materials we make more accesible to others, and finally how to make our active projects more noticable so volunteers can join in the good fight.
[00:06] <johnvilsack> After that, I failed to mention that if anyone has any other business, we should cover it then, and finally close out by discussing any points we should tackle later.
[00:06] <johnvilsack> If anyone has any questions, please feel free to ask away and I'll do my best to not embarass myself :)
[00:07] <DPic> i'm not sure how much we can get done during this meeting since there seemed to be some conflicts so there are a number of people missing, but we should be able to sort out the major things, i think
[00:07] <johnvilsack> Now as I said, my name is John and I have been a part of the Ubuntu Marketing Team for over a year.  I came on board and found a very quiet, segmented group that got some stuff done in little segments, but there didn't seem to be a lot of activity public.
[00:08] <johnvilsack> In the beginning of my time, someone had tried to make the group "more active" but met with some resistance.  This happened again and when that was looking like it was going to fail, I offered to help out.
[00:08] <DPic> was that person me?
[00:09] <DPic> i don't remember meeting any resistance but i *did* redesign the wiki entirely
[00:09] <DPic> gave it a lot of structure, etc.
[00:09] <johnvilsack> A little about me:  I am the (by day) director of IT at a snowboarding company in Saint Paul, Minnesota, USA.  I've worked on several political campaigns in their grassroots movements, several other open source projects, and have a desire to basically throw myself into things against my wife's better judgement ;)
[00:09] <johnvilsack> Anyway, I just wanted to give a bit of background :)
[00:10] <johnvilsack> @DPic: I'm not 100% sure.  I remember the gentleman who tried back then was older, and wanted to see it but was't willing to lead the charge. :(
[00:10] <johnvilsack> The first order of business:  Update
[00:10] <DPic> ah, i don't remember that
[00:10] <DPic> Update?
[00:10] <johnvilsack> Right when I scheduled the meeting, I had posted a Google Doc Form on the mailing list to help see who all was active and what they were interested in doing.
[00:11] <DPic> ah
[00:11] <johnvilsack> We got a much better sample than I was honestly expecting to see!  Using a Doc Form was a bit foreign to the group (and me) but we ended up with 16 responses.
[00:11] <johnvilsack> And I realized I didn't even respond and I'm the one who created it ;)
[00:12] <DPic> haha
[00:12] <johnvilsack> Of the responses, many of the responders were people who wanted to lead projectss which is great!
[00:12] <popey> will you be publishing the results?
[00:12] <popey> "Hello" btw
[00:12] <DPic> popey: the results have always been public iirc
[00:12] <johnvilsack> It means that those who want to be active in the vocal sense are willing to step up and take the reigns
[00:12] <popey> DPic: where?
[00:12] <johnvilsack> Yes sir, the doc and everything are all completely open to the world.
[00:13] <johnvilsack> let me check one sec
[00:13] <johnvilsack> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AtL0i3WC8jUzdGhXTkRjQmJiSjVKeVZGWVo1NFpEeWc&hl=en
[00:13] <johnvilsack> Those are the registrants.
[00:13] <popey> oops
[00:13] <popey> i didnt fill it in
[00:14] <johnvilsack> I'm quite pleased to see that we have so many willing to step forward and help.  What this means is that we DEFINITELY need to start adding mechanics to the group that allow us to publish our projects, needs, and roles we want to fill.
[00:14] <johnvilsack> and by roles I mean the roles in each project.
[00:15] <johnvilsack> It also means almost 20 people read the walls of text we all post to the mailing list, and that has to be a good thing! :)
[00:15] <johnvilsack> So that brings us to the next point.  I'd like to talk about how we can improve access to the marketing team.
[00:15] <DPic> okay this is what i see:
[00:15] <johnvilsack> I had an idea, and I will throw it out there and then let you all run with what you have :)
[00:15] <DPic> the marketing team has always been *accessible*
[00:15] <DPic> it's always been a place where people can bring their projects
[00:16] <johnvilsack> agreed
[00:16] <DPic> there has simply never been projects that want to for one reason or another
[00:16] <Takyoji> Just needs more active members
[00:16] <DPic> perhaps LoCo's are taking care of it just fine
[00:16] <DPic> what advantage does being a central resource provide anyone?
[00:16] <vadi2> DPic: "it's always been a place where people can bring their projects" claarif that please
[00:16] <DPic> i think we need regular activities
[00:16] <vadi2> *clarify
[00:16] <johnvilsack> I think it serves a different purpose, to be honest.
[00:16] <johnvilsack> Here's an example.
[00:16] <DPic> vadi2: people have always been aple to create a project page on the wiki and announce it to the mailing list
[00:17] <vadi2> about a ubuntu promotion activity?
[00:17] <johnvilsack> To keep this politically agnostic, let's call my candidate "Candidate A"
[00:17] <Takyoji> Because everytime I make something and ask for review, or prompt a marketing-related question. There's really nobody that answers most of the time
[00:17] <DPic> vadi2: what about one?
[00:17] <DPic> Takyoji: really? on the mailing list?
[00:17] <Takyoji> IRC
[00:17] <johnvilsack> When we organized the Meetups, Meetups acted like the LoCos do for Ubuntu.  They are completely on their own, and could choose to use ,or not use, whatever they wanted.
[00:17] <DPic> Takyoji: ah, IRC isn't always very active...
[00:18] <johnvilsack> What the "marketing" arm did was created materials that went to the Meetups monthly.
[00:18] <vadi2> DPic: I don't think it's accessible, because I don't even know where the wiki is. I went to http://www.ubuntu.com/community, and the "Promote Ubuntu" icon is missing.
[00:18] <Takyoji> Usually I prefer more in the direction of forums over mailing lists
[00:18] <johnvilsack> It had flyers, info, stickers, etc. for each group.  But they didn't have to use it, but it was there
[00:18] <DPic> vadi2: i think it will soon be replaced with a link to spread ubuntu
[00:19] <johnvilsack> anyway, that's kind of what I see Marketing helping with.  Craft the message that people can choose to use if they want, but give them the freedom that they can use it only if they want to :)
[00:19] <johnvilsack> As for improving things for us...I think the first step is helping us, the volunteers.
[00:19] <DPic> johnvilsack: the spread ubuntu website makes a central effort for that on it's own
[00:19] <DPic> not sure if that activity can keep this team afloat
[00:19] <DPic> at the very most, it'll get us a bunch of artists
[00:19] <johnvilsack> right, but not activists.
[00:20] <popey> depends
[00:20] <johnvilsack> the first step in my mind is to make the marketing landing page easier t access.
[00:20] <Flannel> johnvilsack: Creating resources for the various other teams to use.  That's the conclusion that was arrived at 18 months ago (or whatever) as well.
[00:20] <popey> if you can "communitize" the resource it can
[00:20] <popey> get people to report back on events to the spread ubuntu site
[00:20] <popey> spread ubuntu doesn't just have to be about downloadable leaflets
[00:20] <johnvilsack> right, that's how it should be.
[00:20] <popey> it can be a community of activists too
[00:20] <johnvilsack> I think SpreadUbuntu can be this tool, for certain
[00:21] <johnvilsack> But again, who is the target audience?
[00:21] <DPic> anyone and everyone. that's project-specific
[00:21] <popey> the answer to that is almost always "everyone"
[00:21] <johnvilsack> remember, you have the people you want to fall in love with Ubuntu, or the people who love it already and want to spread the word
[00:21] <DPic> you mean who should be a member of this team?
[00:21] <johnvilsack> no no
[00:22] <johnvilsack> I mean when we talk about making things accessible to folks, remember the types of people who may come across what you are doing.
[00:22] <johnvilsack> My first thought is we have to improve on getting people who want to help find what they want faster.
[00:22] <johnvilsack> and that's what spread ubuntu is
[00:23] <johnvilsack> but even SpreadUbuntu is still scatter-shot so to speak.  it tries to be everything for everyone.
[00:23] <johnvilsack> Here's a question.
[00:23] <DPic> and i think it does that better than this team
[00:23] <johnvilsack> This is how I think of the issue.
[00:23] <johnvilsack> Right DPic, that's what I want to change :)
[00:23] <DPic> johnvilsack: isn't that counter-productive?
[00:24] <johnvilsack> The question is:  If I think Ubuntu is awesome, and I am a marketing person who wants to contribute, Where do I go?
[00:24] <johnvilsack> and when I get there, what do I see?
[00:24] <DPic> i think we need a new purpose or to disband and stop distracting people from worthy endeavors like spread ubuntu
[00:24] <johnvilsack> How can I just get my hands dirty and get working?
[00:24] <DPic> you go to your LoCo and/ore spreadubuntu
[00:25] <johnvilsack> and what if you don't have an active loco?
[00:25] <johnvilsack> because that happens.
[00:25] <DPic> forums
[00:25] <DPic> IRC
[00:25] <johnvilsack> what if you want to start a new one?
[00:25] <vadi2> or what if you got creepy linux geeks in the loco :\
[00:25] <johnvilsack> The point is, there is not even a place to "Get Started"
[00:25] <DPic> johnvilsack: anyone can start a new one. there's no need for a marketing team tehre
[00:25] <Flannel> SpreadUbuntu isn't a project for marketing people to contribute to.  The result of the SpreadUbuntu project is a website that you can contribute to.
[00:25] <DPic> johnvilsack: yes there is. the wiki
[00:26] <Flannel> DPic: That's an important distinction your comment a smidge ago seemed to confuse.
[00:26] <johnvilsack> The wiki isn't very helpful to a newcomer.
[00:26] <johnvilsack> but I'd like it to be.
[00:26] <leogg> the marketing team should be a point of support for LoCo Teams, not the other way around
[00:26] <johnvilsack> I think in my perfect scenario, the Marketing page on the Wiki would have simple buttons:
[00:26] <popey> the loco council is the point of support for loco teams :)
[00:26] <Flannel> popey: Different kind of support
[00:26] <johnvilsack> "Contribute Artwork" "View Current Marketing Projects" "Start Your Own Marketing Project", etc.
[00:26] <leogg> popey:  I mean support for marketing efforts
[00:26] <popey> ok
[00:27] <popey> "support" as in "provide materials to locos, to support them in their advocacy efforts"?
[00:27] <johnvilsack> some of those integrate in tightly with SpreadUbuntu.  but SpreadUbuntu is not the end all be all for marketing.  Its not a holy grail that people are going to flock to for all of their needs
[00:27] <leogg> popey: yes
[00:27] <johnvilsack> because it can't support them all, and it shouldn't
[00:27] <Flannel> popey: Yes
[00:27] <popey> cool
[00:27] <DPic> johnvilsack: i think it can better than we can for 90% of stuff
[00:27] <johnvilsack> it needs to be a tool, but it doesn't have to be the whole machine
[00:28] <johnvilsack> Only because the group hasn't tried to have direction.
[00:28] <johnvilsack> and it seems like we have people in place that want to help.
[00:28] <Flannel> johnvilsack: Its original/full featured form can be though.  The repository of stuff was just one aspectof the whole spreadubuntu site.
[00:28]  * DPic has a *new* idea for the marketing team.
[00:29] <Flannel> There was an entire website surrounding it, which could also support collaboration of projects and stuff too, should we want
[00:29] <johnvilsack> and yet, Get Materials, Make Materials, Translate Materials and Share Materials are the primary buttons and functions of the site that's live.
[00:29] <johnvilsack> So...its a repository
[00:29] <johnvilsack> which is absolutely necessary
[00:29] <johnvilsack> but again, not the end all be all.
[00:29] <Takyoji> Then what does it need?
[00:29] <Flannel> johnvilsack: That's bcause that's *just* the repository section.
[00:30] <johnvilsack> What I think is needed is something to remove the barrier of helping.
[00:30] <DPic> johnvilsack: it can be expanded and be much more effective than our wiki/team can.
[00:30] <DPic> How about this:
[00:30] <DPic> i've been working on getting a project off the ground
[00:30] <DPic> a local project
[00:30] <DPic> but a big one
[00:30] <popey> !enter
[00:30] <johnvilsack> DPic, I appreciate your zest for SpreadUbuntu, but I think they work together, not apart from one another
[00:31] <DPic> i'm not going to give out the details right now, but we're goign to be setting a precedent for LoCos and FOSS groups
[00:31] <DPic> because we're creating a system which will allow teams to get fiscal sponsorship for little or no cost
[00:31] <DPic> i'm also compiling a list of media contacts to send out press releases to. what if the marketing team took up the responsibility of publicising advocacy projects?
[00:32] <DPic> since once this system is ready, a *lot* of them could be popping up
[00:32] <johnvilsack> That sounds like a great project for the group, but no one "thing" is something this team would be responsible for.
[00:32] <johnvilsack> But, I'm going to close out this section with this:
[00:32] <DPic> but there needs to be something
[00:32] <DPic> because the teems needs some main, regular activity
[00:33] <johnvilsack> This is the perfect example of the type of project you should be able to get to from the main Marketing pages so you can go and contribute.
[00:33] <johnvilsack> and a Project Manager should have tasks broken up and accessible for people to do, because that would be effective.
[00:33] <johnvilsack> let people choose their own level of involvement
[00:33] <johnvilsack> Ok, we're 6 minutes over, so please onto the next topic.
[00:34] <DPic> johnvilsack: usually agenda's allow topics to go on as long as are needed
[00:34] <popey> DPic: not when there is a fixed duration
[00:34] <johnvilsack> *** How can we integrate more of the work and knowledge from SpreadUbuntu and other areas into our marketing efforts?
[00:35] <DPic> by working on expanding spreadubuntu?
[00:35] <DPic> in the areas it's lacking
[00:35] <johnvilsack> @vadi I just closed that window, sorry.  Please resend
[00:35] <popey> identify the areas its lacking
[00:35] <DPic> wherever johnvilsack thinks it doesn't do what is needed.
[00:36] <johnvilsack> Dpic: The question isn't "how can we help SpreadUbuntu" but how to integrate in more tightly.
[00:36] <johnvilsack> I think its kind of a poor question, because it really is its own source.
[00:36] <johnvilsack> but there its not accessible through the marketing pages on the wiki easily.
[00:37] <johnvilsack> nor can you really get to "anything" without going to SU and having to finger through it all.
[00:37] <johnvilsack> So, I hate my own question :)
[00:37] <Flannel> johnvilsack: File a bug against SU.  There are some problems with it's current implentation, they can be fixed.
[00:37] <johnvilsack> The biggest problem only seems to be getting to it.
[00:38] <johnvilsack> If I go to the main marketing page, I can't get to SpreadUbuntu nor does it even really say "go here because this is where the most activity seems to be"
[00:38] <johnvilsack> But since my question sucked, I'll answer yours :)  Where is the best place for a new person to go to say "I want to hel contribute to spreadUbuntu?"
[00:39] <popey> johnvilsack: thats in the process of being fixed as they get a .ubuntu.com domain sorted by Canonical IS department
[00:39] <leogg> johnvilsack: add a link in the main marketing page
[00:39] <DPic> why would they say that? if they're saying that, it's safe to say thay're *at* spreadubuntu
[00:39] <DPic> and everything is explained there
[00:39] <johnvilsack> Because I just asked the question.  We can't assume anything.
[00:39] <johnvilsack> I don't know where to go.  I'm on the site right now.
[00:40] <DPic> there are four big buttons
[00:40] <popey> well i clicked "learn more"
[00:40] <popey> and found out pretty quickly
[00:40] <popey> it links to a task list, and about how to join the team
[00:40] <popey> one click off the home page
[00:40] <johnvilsack> I see some downloads, I can share some stuff if I want, or join a campaign.  But I don't see anywhere that says "join us in helping to develop spreadubuntu from a backend perspective" as opposed to just uploading my poster.
[00:40] <popey> "Learn more about SpreadUbuntu"
[00:41] <popey> "If you're thinking about actively participating, consider joining our team and the mailing l"
[00:41] <popey> +ist
[00:41] <johnvilsack> I see that now, thanks.
[00:41] <leogg> johnvilsack:  I don't understand what's the big issue with SU... at least it's one of the components of the marketing team that actually works (not perfectly, but it can be improved)
[00:41] <popey> ditto
[00:41] <johnvilsack> I'm not saying its broken.
[00:41] <DPic> ditto
[00:41] <popey> it's a tool in the marketing team arsenal
[00:41] <johnvilsack> I think its awesome.
[00:41] <johnvilsack> I agree with Popey.
[00:42] <leogg> johnvilsack: let's concentrate on the positive aspects of SU, and see how we can improve it
[00:42] <johnvilsack> I honestly feel like the discussions about improving our Marketing Team are some sort of contest between me and everyone who supports SpreadUbuntu.
[00:42] <johnvilsack> I don't see it that way, and wish people would see they are different parts of the same machine.
[00:43] <leogg> johnvilsack: SU and the marketing team are not incompatible
[00:43] <johnvilsack> They are when every time I say "Marketing Team" and I have to defend it against SpreadUbuntu.
[00:43] <johnvilsack> I personally want to see both succeed.
[00:43] <popey> possibly because you tell us what we need, and people say "we have that already" or "we can implement that easily" in SU
[00:44] <popey> which seems a valid response
[00:44] <popey> "lets use the tools we have and improve them"
[00:44] <popey> rather than starting again
[00:44] <DPic> i've just seen the marketing team be a distraction that doesn't actually get thigns done, simply because it isn't needed
[00:44] <leogg> popey: +1
[00:44] <DPic> popey: +1
[00:44] <johnvilsack> I agree with that popey and leogg, but not Dpic.
[00:44] <johnvilsack> But whatever.
[00:44] <popey> ok
[00:44] <DPic> forgive me for being overly cynical
[00:44] <johnvilsack> I think we need to use the tools in SU.
[00:44] <popey> so turn this around..
[00:45] <popey> What do we _need_, What's _missing_
[00:45] <popey> ?
[00:45] <johnvilsack> I think SU is the major, major part of anything we do
[00:45] <popey> <- not a marketing expert, so doesn't know what we need as a team to do effective marketing
[00:45] <popey> so I'm just asking, what do we think we need?
[00:45] <johnvilsack> but we're missing grassroots accessibility.  We're missing any sort of package of a message we're trying to get across.  We're lacking a way for projects to be accessible to newcomers who have osme time to give but don't want to dig around and find things
[00:46] <popey> I think you're massively overplaying the amount of time/effort required to "dig around"
[00:46] <johnvilsack> We havea  great tool for us but we don't have the mechanics to help someone tomorrow.
[00:46] <popey> the information and materials can be made more accessible, sure
[00:46] <popey> and we need more of it
[00:46] <popey> but I dont think we're a lost cause
[00:47] <popey> johnvilsack: whats the use case that would result in someone not finding what they want?
[00:47] <popey> lets say someone steps up to the marketing mailing list - a new person, using ubuntu for 2 years, wants to help..
[00:47] <popey> What would we do?
[00:47] <johnvilsack> We, or them?
[00:47] <popey> We, to support them.
[00:48] <johnvilsack> good question.
[00:48] <popey> What would "we" as a team do to help "them" as activists/advocates, to "enable" them.
[00:48] <popey> if we dont know the answer to that question then we have a problem
[00:49] <johnvilsack> I would say we have a page that offers easy pathing to get them intelligently to where they want to go.  Give them access to projects that are being run ,how to start their own if one isn't available, access to what a loco is and how they can become active in it, etc
[00:49] <leogg> johnvilsack: that can be easily done in the Ubuntu wiki
[00:49] <johnvilsack> if they want to design, promote, etc...give them each pathing that empowers them to find it intuitively.  We can't expect them to know our vernacular, etc.
[00:49] <popey> Ok, excellent, so breaking that down.. "an easy to read web page" - DPic has done well to improve the wiki pages.. there is probably room for improvement but we're looking good already
[00:50] <popey> "access to projects" - this is going to amount to SU and...?? what ever other projects we (marketing team) come up with right?
[00:50] <popey> which right now amounts to.. not much, but if we want to we _can_ start additional projects to supplement/contrast with SU, right?
[00:51] <johnvilsack> the next step would be to make sure we have project leaders using systems that show what projects are out there, are breaking it down into small chunks volunteers could help with, and then collaborting with other projects to make sure we are all on the same page and not doing each other's work
[00:51] <popey> ok, so we need to gather information about what projects exist
[00:51] <Flannel> popey: Of course.  The additional projects can be anything.
[00:51] <johnvilsack> after that my friends, its all the group.  Then we start individual projects about message, etc. and people will contribute to whichever ones appeal to them most.
[00:51] <popey> some of those may not fall under "marketing team", as they may be "one man band" doing his own thing, which we could pull in and bring under our banner
[00:51] <johnvilsack> and democracy wins.
[00:52] <popey> ..or they could be brand new ideas for projects which come from existing members of the team, such as those ideas you had in the google spreadsheet
[00:52] <johnvilsack> That is really all I am saying needs to happen.  Its not more substantial than that.
[00:52] <popey> I think it mostly amounts to a bit of cat herding, organisation and documenting what we've got.
[00:52] <johnvilsack> There are hundreds of little projects I want to do, but they come after we have a way for newcomers to join in on the fun easily.
[00:52] <popey> "build it and they will come"
[00:52] <johnvilsack> precisely.
[00:53] <popey> i mean the other way round :)
[00:53] <popey> from the bottom, not the top
[00:53] <johnvilsack> Obviously, you can see now that this by no means replaces SU but in fact heavily relies on it.
[00:53] <popey> I think we could get into a beauracratic feedback loop if we build infrastructure with no projects
[00:53] <johnvilsack> because all of these projects would have source code...in the form of materials, etc.
[00:53] <popey> In my mind projects need to come first (chronologically)
[00:54] <popey> I'd love to continue, but it's 1AM here, and my bed is calling...
[00:54] <popey> thanks for coming all.. nn
[00:54] <johnvilsack> No worries popey, I'll be calling the meeting in a few anyways.  Thanks
[00:54] <johnvilsack> Does anyone think that this is duplicating anything or a fruitless endeavor?
[00:54] <popey> Oh, and I'll be at UDS if anyone wants a chat
[00:55] <johnvilsack> We don't need to tear anything down.  Its about rebuilding what isn't working and adding to the power of what already exists.
[00:56] <DPic> i'm not sure exactly what's happening, but i have no objections of what i've heard
[00:56] <DPic> how can we help?
[00:56] <johnvilsack> Thanks for asking :)
[00:57] <johnvilsack> Well, based on my selective hearing this evening, here's what I think we decided.
[00:57] <johnvilsack> SpreadUbuntu works awesome.  Nobody wants to change it.  There are things that the project needs help with, but its the most positive thing this group has ever done
[00:58] <johnvilsack> We want to make things easier for new people to find, and have them begin helping the groups.  This will probably come in the form of changing the wiki to point to projects and SpreadUbuntu
[00:59] <DPic> pointing to spreadubuntu now
[00:59] <DPic> what else?
[00:59] <johnvilsack> We need to wrangle up better use of (launchpad?) in the marketing team so that we can figure out what projects there are.
[00:59] <leogg> There's already a lot of things going on at the LoCo level, so it may be worth pointing people to those projects
[00:59] <Flannel> johnvilsack: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Projects/
[00:59] <Flannel> johnvilsack: Wiki would be best
[00:59] <DPic> Flannel: was just oging to link to that  =]
[00:59] <Flannel> (and it already exists, etc)
[00:59] <johnvilsack> We need to support these projects first by having them break down into chunks that people can break off very easily and do themselves.
[01:00] <Flannel> johnvilsack: That'll happen differently for each project though
[01:00] <johnvilsack> and finally, we need to make quite certain that we add alot of linking back to the Locos and explain their role, so people know about them
[01:01] <johnvilsack> Flannel: I know.  But hopefully if we start setting some examples, we can set a standard of how people want their project pages to look.
[01:01] <johnvilsack> Other than that, that should help set the stage for Marketing people to contribute more.
[01:02] <johnvilsack> I was disappointed when I asked if people needed help with projects.  I'm worried that like you said, DPic, there isn't alot of initiative in the group.
[01:02] <DPic> this page might be useful as well https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ActivismGuide
[01:03] <johnvilsack> Two things I learned about volunteers:  You can't expect them to go hunting for something to do, and you can't expect them to take it when you tell them they are doing it wrong :)
[01:03] <Flannel> johnvilsack: Last time the MarketingTeam started up, I volunteered to (and never finished) coming up with a "how to start a new project" guide thing (just a few steps) for that page.  I'll see if I can find that and finish/post.
[01:03] <johnvilsack> I think the first big step is getting them to the work.  The last one doesn't matter much
[01:03] <johnvilsack> Flannel: That would be awesome.
[01:04] <johnvilsack> I hope to see many of these "projects" that come of this going right into SpreadUbuntu and making that site more powerful.
[01:04] <Flannel> johnvilsack: MarketingTeam doesn't have to be about contributing to SpreadUbuntu.  Not all of our projects will fit into that page.
[01:04] <johnvilsack> I think more than anything, it's going to be the community marketing for Ubuntu that we've needed for so long.
[01:05] <johnvilsack> Agreed, but I think that as a window into Marketing, its going to be the portal.
[01:05] <johnvilsack> Alright, well that sums it up on my end.  Thanks for being patient.  I eventually got to my point. :)
[01:05] <johnvilsack> Does anyone have anything else?
[01:08] <ScottK> Does the marketing team work on just Ubuntu or other flavors too?
[01:08] <DPic> Mostly ubuntu,, but i see no problem promoting other flavors
[01:08] <johnvilsack> Well then, I thank you all for coming, and I'm glad we got to talk.  I think maybe it got cloudly as to how much everyone thought I wanted to see change, but I'm a firm believer in small steps to a large goal :)
[01:08] <johnvilsack> and we all have the same goal :)
[01:09] <johnvilsack> THANK YOU FOR COMING, AND THIS CONCLUDES OUR UBUNTU COMMUNITY MARKETING MEETING
[01:09] <DPic> bang your gavel
[01:09] <ScottK> johnvilsack: Thanks for asking if anyone had anything else and then ignoring questions.
[01:09] <DPic> ScottK: i answered you.
[01:09] <johnvilsack> Scottk: DPic answered you :)
[01:09] <johnvilsack> Sorry about that.
[01:10] <ScottK> Well I was typing a followup
[01:10] <ScottK> Not in a particularly useful way
[01:10] <johnvilsack> Wee can certainly talk about it :)
[01:10] <DPic> ScottK: how could we ignore something that you haven't sent yet?
[01:10] <DPic> go ahead and send it.
[01:11] <ScottK> DPic: 30 seconds between an answer and closing the meeting really doesn't give one a chance
[01:11] <ScottK> Nevermind.
[01:11] <Flannel> ScottK: There's no reason to restrict ourselves to the Ubuntu flavor.  "Ubuntu" in this case is the distro, not the flavor.
[01:11] <DPic> ScottK: if you have just gone ahead and sked we would've answered
[01:12] <DPic> i'm not sure what a more useful answer would've been. instead of asking for clarifying, we're now areguing about whether we ignored you when you didn't even try asking
[01:12] <johnvilsack> Trust me when I say that if you have any questions, we can answer them.  But other distros technically aren't on this evenings docket.  So we can talk about it, but this was more about the marketing team mechanics
[01:12] <johnvilsack> We're all still here though
[01:13] <DPic> ScottK: you have the floor.
[01:13] <ScottK> In Karmic we started a new flavor, Kubuntu Netbook.
[01:14] <ScottK> We have about zero marketing so far.
[01:14]  * ScottK is a developer, not a marketer.
[01:14] <ScottK> We have one or two people who have expressed an interest in helping with Kubuntu related marketing and I was wondering how this team's work might also help with this.
[01:15] <johnvilsack> I most definitely think that people would help
[01:15] <johnvilsack> Well, assuming we can get people to do anything :)
[01:15] <johnvilsack> But I definitely think there is room for projects of other *buntu flavors
[01:15] <johnvilsack> I took the question to mean Debian, Gentoo, etc.
[01:16] <ScottK> It sounds to me like you are currently in an organizational phase?
[01:16] <DPic> ScottK: been stuck here for a while =]
[01:16] <ScottK> OK.
[01:17] <ScottK> For your next meeting, you might want to also send the announcment to kubuntu-devel as I think the Kubuntu people interested in marketing are subscribed there.
[01:17] <ScottK> (you  will have to subscribe to post)
[01:18] <ScottK> So I guess that's my suggestion for now, given where you are, so that people working in the different *buntu flavors can work together.
[01:18] <johnvilsack> I think that's something we should definitely cover.
[01:18] <johnvilsack> I'll post something in the mailing list for you and see what people say.
[01:19] <johnvilsack> I agree though, it seems like it would be the perfect place to combine our energies
[01:19] <Flannel> Is there another meeting coming up?  Should we move this to #ubuntu-marketing?
[01:19] <ScottK> That was all I had.
[01:20] <DPic> Flannel: ubuntu-meeting is logged. u-marketing is not
[01:22] <johnvilsack> I think I'm all done.
[01:22] <johnvilsack> Thanks everyone :)
[18:03] <sbalneav> Edubuntu meeting now?
[18:03] <mhall119|work> is there?
[18:05] <Nubae> me too
[18:05] <sbalneav> Lemme check the list
[18:07] <sbalneav> ah, no
[18:07] <sbalneav> 19:00 utc
[18:07] <sbalneav> I think it's 18:00 now.
[18:07] <sbalneav> hold on, lemme verigy
[18:07] <mhall119|work> yeah, it's currently 18:07
[18:08] <sbalneav> ok, so another hour
[18:08] <sbalneav> well, 53 minutes
[18:09] <mhall119|work> 51 now
[18:13] <Nubae> so what s on the agenda
[18:14] <Nubae> I promised to write a guide to becoming a developer
[18:14] <Nubae> or something like that
[18:17] <sbalneav> Nubae: Dunno.
[18:17] <sbalneav> One supposes first order of business should be EC stuff: now woth LaserJock gone, we need a "leader" :)
[18:18] <Nubae> yeah, I think that kinda naturally lands on your lap unfortunately
[18:18] <Nubae> or fortunately
[18:18] <Nubae> depending on how u loook at it
[18:19] <Nubae> but I'd like to document the experience so that when people go off into hiatus, we know what to do
[18:19] <Nubae> this... ok, so long and thanks for all the fish...
[18:19] <Nubae> doesnt work so well with a distro leader
[18:19] <Nubae> :-)
[18:20] <sbalneav> My lap?! Cripes...
[18:20] <sbalneav> I'm nobody
[18:22] <Nubae> past tense...
[18:23] <Nubae> jeez, at least in your email you seemed to be clear headed and strong about this
[18:23] <Nubae> that is the sbalneav that needs to be here
[18:27] <Nubae> so, Laserjock is leaving completely or he's just passing over the wheel?
[18:30] <highvoltage> Nubae: he's stepping down from his EC role, he said he'll still be around if we need him
[18:30] <highvoltage> sbalneav: edubuntu meeting is in about 30 minutes
[18:34] <sbalneav> Nubae: There's a bit of a difference between "Having good ideas" to being the leader :)
[18:36]  * alkisg votes sbalneav for president
[18:38] <Nubae> sbalneav, I think u are going to find ureself in the position if u want it or not
[18:44] <sbalneav> sigh
[18:52] <Nubae> anyway it must have SOME perks
[18:53] <sbalneav> What must have some perks? :)
[18:53] <Nubae> so... say I was just joe schmoe from the street... I found ubuntu... had some windows experience say and wanted to help out, eventually even being a dev or god help us MOTU
[18:53] <Nubae> the position
[18:54] <sbalneav> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAA
*wheze* you're funny
[18:54] <Nubae> can u explain the journey
[18:55] <Nubae> I'm being totally serious now
[18:55] <sbalneav> No, because I haven't quite figured it out myself.
[18:55] <Nubae> thats the main reason it needs documenting
[18:55] <sbalneav> Hanging out on the irc channel helps
[18:55] <jbicha> sbalneav: besides the loss of even and getting blamed for failure, you can take credit when things go well :-)
[18:55] <Nubae> u CAN tell me what got u this far
[18:56] <cody-somerville> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_model_of_skill_acquisition
[18:56] <jbicha> *even more time
[18:56] <Nubae> ok, hanging out on irc is a valid point
[18:56] <Nubae> it is a requirement
[18:56] <sbalneav> Nubae: I've been involved with this... this... whatever our little ecosystem is, since like, 1988
[18:56] <Nubae> the mailing list too I suppose
[18:57] <Nubae> try to get  mentor
[18:57] <sbalneav> I've just "always been here"
[18:57] <Nubae> learn bash, python, and LTSP in and out
[18:58] <Nubae> hmmm..... get used to the tools devhelp
[18:58] <sbalneav> The problem is, with any project like this, you get a lot of people who have a vague sense they want to "help"
[18:58] <Nubae> and d-feet
[18:58] <highvoltage> hi!
[18:58] <Nubae> jeez u know some of these things i didnt even figure out myself till recently
[18:58] <Nubae> u know how god damn useful devhelp is
[18:58] <sbalneav> but end up being completely unwilling to make the time, committment, and effort necessary to effect any useful work.
[18:58] <sbalneav> Without putting too fine a point on it.
[18:59] <sbalneav> *chough*ace_suarez*cough*
[18:59] <highvoltage> now now, be nice
[18:59] <Nubae> right, but if they see the document, its size its scope and are still willing to give it a go
[18:59] <Nubae> then cool
[19:00] <Nubae> right but if he saw a dev manual of several 1000 pages
[19:00]  * stgraber waves to everyone
[19:00] <Nubae> it might have been different
[19:00] <sbalneav> Do I lie?  I'm simply saying the reality.
[19:00] <stgraber> going to get some water, will be there in a minute
[19:00] <highvoltage> seems like everyone is here for the meeting eh?
[19:00] <alkisg1> ace did give time and effort. He just didn't agree with the community on what things to do and how.
[19:00] <highvoltage> I guess it's aboot time we get started by the looks of things, eh?
[19:00] <alkisg1> A bulleted list of where we need help would be nice...
[19:00]  * jbicha says hi
[19:00] <highvoltage> (I'm probably laying on the Canadian a bit thick there)
[19:00] <Nubae> we say... ok, u wanna be a dev... go read that dev manual (yez we know its 1456 pages long)
[19:01] <highvoltage> Agenda is up on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda
[19:01] <sbalneav> Translation, he didn't want to give the time and effort to either conform to the community standards, or invest the time and effort to change the community standards.
[19:01] <highvoltage> anyone want to take notes for the list?
[19:01] <sbalneav> I'm all in favour of a dev manual
[19:01] <Nubae> after reading the manual, I think we'd have weeded out
[19:01] <sbalneav> but I think these things already exist
[19:01] <sbalneav> ubuntu packaging guide, etc.
[19:01] <Nubae> like with ltsp
[19:02] <Nubae> helps loads
[19:02] <highvoltage> ok I guess it will be me then
[19:02] <Nubae> as does the telepathy manual
[19:02]  * highvoltage taps the mic HELLO IS THIS THING ON
[19:02] <sbalneav> at any rate.
[19:02]  * sbalneav yields floor
[19:02] <stgraber> alright, I'm here now ;)
[19:02] <Nubae> there are no questioons there about oh, should I become a dev
[19:02] <Nubae> ok
[19:03] <alkisg1> Hey guys let us listen to the guy with the mic :)
[19:03] <highvoltage> heh
[19:03] <highvoltage> ok first up, as many of you will know, next week is the UDS (Ubuntu Developer Summit)
[19:03] <stgraber> anyone outside of me who will be in Dallas for UDS ?
[19:04] <sbalneav> Not I
[19:04] <highvoltage> so far there are 2 sessions registered that directly applies to Edubuntu:
[19:04] <highvoltage>  * https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-lucid-edubuntu-community
[19:04] <highvoltage>  * https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-lucid-edubuntu-roadmap
[19:05] <highvoltage> and then there's also one for LTSP, for those who are intersted:
[19:05] <highvoltage>  * https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-lucid-ltsp
[19:05] <stgraber> ok, so I'll be onsite for these sessions, I'm giving a plenary session on Wednesday and so hope to get a few more interested people there
[19:05] <alkisg1> stgraber: and some answers about the things laserjock asked canonical about edubuntu...
[19:05] <stgraber> I'll then be looking at IRC during the sessions and will also be on skype if sound quality isn't good enough in the room
[19:05] <highvoltage> stgraber was kind enough to set them up
[19:05] <Nubae> has M Shuttleworth shown any more interested in edu?
[19:05] <alkisg1> (i.e. name trademark, future plans etc)
[19:05] <stgraber> current plans from Canonical regarding Edubuntu is to have it handled by the community
[19:06] <highvoltage> there's a schedule of when the sessions take place when you scroll down on http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-l/
[19:06] <stgraber> the EC has been in touch with the CC recently to prepare things like elections, team handling, ...
[19:07] <stgraber> so currently, we'll continue with Edubuntu, Ubuntu for education can still be used by Canonical from time to time and we still have the same support as other derivatives (except that we have part of our packages in Main)
[19:07] <alkisg> Sounds nice
[19:07] <highvoltage> imho we should merge it with edubuntu, since the Ubuntu in Education list is mostly floating around with no one taking care of it
[19:07] <stgraber> we had a LONG discussion with the CC about most of that and also attended a few TB meetings to deal with more technical stuff and things like commerical support
[19:07] <Nubae> but from the lips of the man himself, nothing about edu then?
[19:07] <highvoltage> unless it's something that we adopt
[19:08] <stgraber> highvoltage: agreed, though "Ubuntu for education" is still AFAIK the commercial title on ubuntu.com
[19:08] <sbalneav> With the archive re-org, once someone becomes a motu, does that mean that we can maintain our packages ourselved?
[19:08] <highvoltage> Nubae: just a second... I'm just looking for a mail he sent
[19:08] <stgraber> sbalneav: there shouldn't be motu actually
[19:08] <stgraber> there'll be something like edubuntu-dev
[19:09] <stgraber> and the members will have upload rights to packaged handled by edubuntu-dev
[19:09] <stgraber> (that's how I understand it, not sure all of that is right)
[19:09] <highvoltage> Nubae: we sent an update to the CC about a month ago and Mark said "Glad to see forward motion on edubuntu - thank you!"
[19:09] <sbalneav> ok, so here's my question.  I'm currently planning on becoming "motu". should I bother with that then? Or just keep fixing packages and putting them in the edubuntu-dev ppa
[19:09] <stgraber> Nubae: Mark is happy to see edubuntu going forward but Canonical won't put any effort in it just yet
[19:10] <highvoltage> Nubae: not sure if that answers your question :)
[19:10] <stgraber> sbalneav: issue is we don't have a clear deadline on that archive reorganization or how it'll exactly be handled for Edubuntu
[19:10] <sbalneav> "Don't tell me what you value, show me your budget, and I'll tell YOU what you value"
[19:10] <stgraber> for example, I was talking with Jordan this morning and he said, that these teams will likely have to be approved and additional conditions on their membership will be applied
[19:11] <alkisg> Who's gonna take up all the seeds & DVD work that LaserJock did?
[19:11] <jbicha> stgraber: but is the archive re-org actually happening any time soon, could it still be a year or so away?
[19:11] <stgraber> so not everyone can join edubuntu-dev and have upload rights to package that used to be in main and universe
[19:11] <highvoltage> alkisg: they shouldn't require massive changes, except for when we get rid of the alternate installation
[19:11] <stgraber> jbicha: it's happening, AFAIK a few teams were already decided as well as packages list, boards are also being reorganized for that, ...
[19:12] <highvoltage> alkisg: stgraber is a core-dev at least so he can make and sponsor changes
[19:12] <sbalneav> Personally, archive reorg aside, I'd perfer any "edubuntu" package that's NOT part of ubuntu itself should get demoted to universe.
[19:12] <sbalneav> that lowers the bar to beccoming an edubuntu dev.
[19:12] <alkisg> highvoltage, ok, as long as we have the know-how to even make 1 package change :)
[19:12] <highvoltage> alkisg: and we do!
[19:12] <stgraber> sbalneav: that's why I'd like to have an idea of when we can expect the archive reorg to take effect, because I don't want to go through the pain of demoting packages, update seed, ...
[19:13] <sbalneav> right
[19:13] <stgraber> if a few weeks/months after, everything goes in main
[19:13] <sbalneav> stgraber++
[19:13] <Nubae> thought stgraber was motu actually
[19:13] <highvoltage> I think there's too many unknowns with the package re-organisation to have to discuss it now
[19:13] <sbalneav> ok, table it then.
[19:13] <highvoltage> Nubae: he became core-dev recently
[19:13] <stgraber> Nubae: nope, I'm a Coredev since June or some like that
[19:13] <highvoltage> Nubae: I became motu recently though
[19:13] <Nubae> ah ok
[19:13] <Nubae> must be thinking of someone else
[19:13] <Nubae> oh qfunk
[19:14] <alkisg> Does waiting for the archive reorg mean that we might lose any Lucid deadlines?
[19:14] <sbalneav> and I'm plannin on becoming one, or whatever
[19:14] <stgraber> alkisg: I don't think so
[19:14] <stgraber> alkisg: I'm still quite present around here
[19:14] <stgraber> also highvoltage is now working with me at Revolution Linux
[19:14] <Nubae> alllthough qfunk isnt all that vocal
[19:14] <stgraber> and I'm not the only Coredev at Revolution Linux
[19:14] <Nubae> could be more
[19:14] <sbalneav> alkisg: no, worst case, if we fix something, we just get (stgraber|highvoltage) to sponsor it.
[19:14] <stgraber> so we can easily find a coredev to sponsor something
[19:14] <alkisg> Nice
[19:15] <sbalneav> I'll officially put my name forward for ec
[19:15] <stgraber> sbalneav: thanks for that
[19:15] <Nubae> I'd really like working on getting that list of apps that I pasted a couple of times to the list
[19:15] <Nubae> they are universe apps
[19:15] <stgraber> I'm still not exactly sure on how the EC will handle that, but we plan to have an announcement for elections this week or early next week
[19:16] <highvoltage> sbalneav: great!
[19:16] <Nubae> but would quickly grow edubuntu
[19:16] <stgraber> as it's something we need to address ASAP
[19:16] <Nubae> give it some cred
[19:16] <sbalneav> There a process for that?  Fill my name in on a wiki page?  Give a skin sample from the back of my neck?  Kiss someone's backside? etc.
[19:16] <Nubae> as far as I know its create a seed
[19:16] <highvoltage> ok let's move on to EC elections, it was last on our agenda
[19:16] <Nubae> similar to the ones already created
[19:16] <highvoltage> but we can just as well do it now
[19:16] <Nubae> give it a a name
[19:16] <stgraber> sbalneav: we'll announce that quite soon, that's something both the current EC members and the CC need to do
[19:16] <Nubae> and add the apps
[19:16] <highvoltage> (hmm, we should actually be using mootbot)
[19:17] <stgraber> ok, EC elections then
[19:17] <Nubae> oh... btw... can I be a member
[19:17] <alkisg> (we haven't even started the meeting :))
[19:17] <alkisg> (I mean through a bot command)
[19:17] <highvoltage> by the discussions I assume you are all aware of the EC and that there will be elections taking place soon?
[19:17] <Nubae> :-) this was never formally done
[19:17] <Nubae> :-)
[19:17] <highvoltage> we've been discussing it with the CC and we'll have a round of nominations for a week, and then the week after we'll have the elections
[19:18] <sbalneav> Nubae: I think the "microphone" thing was it. :)
[19:18] <stgraber> Nubae: we need the EC to have quorum for that, currently we aren't quite enough (though in case of emergency we can ask LaserJock to attend)
[19:18] <Nubae> ok, its just getting a bit ridiculous now since I've been doing heavy lifting for 2 years now
[19:19] <alkisg> highvoltage: better give a single-line-definition of EC and CC...
[19:19] <highvoltage> stgraber: I think it would be nice to get the ball rolling, if we announce tomorrow we could still get it on the fridge and do the nominations next week
[19:19] <jbicha> how do EC nominations work? do people have to be nominated before the elections?
[19:19] <stgraber> EC (Edubuntu Council), CC (Community Council)
[19:19] <Nubae> and I I only started doing heavy lifiting fo opensuse couple months ago and am a core-dev tnere
[19:19] <Nubae> there
[19:19] <stgraber> highvoltage: agreed
[19:19] <stgraber> hang on a sec, we have a wiki document I believe
[19:20] <highvoltage> Nubae: yeah laserjock told me about that
[19:20] <highvoltage> Nubae: you're not a motu yet are you?
[19:20] <stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Council
[19:20] <Nubae> no, havent gotten round to applying
[19:21] <Nubae> need to feel a little bit more comfortable packaging officially
[19:21] <highvoltage> Nubae: that's perhaps something we should work towards
[19:21] <Nubae> most of the packaging I've done was for non official distro
[19:21] <Nubae> k
[19:21] <highvoltage> Nubae: that's a good start at least
[19:22] <sbalneav> I think that's where the edubuntu-dev ppa's would come in.
[19:22]  * alkisg signs up for any packaging lessons to be given...
[19:22] <highvoltage> we've drifted off the EC Elections topic again somehow
[19:22] <Nubae> so for that basically, package up some things show em off to u guys
[19:22] <highvoltage> but I think edubuntu-specific packaging lessons might be useful
[19:22] <stgraber> let's focus a bit on EC elections, please ;)
[19:22] <highvoltage> we could perhaps colaboratively fix a bug in gcompris and a few other things at some point, etc
[19:22] <stgraber> that's currently the first big thing to do if we want to have a strong edubuntu community
[19:22] <sbalneav> ok, so they'll be announced
[19:22] <alkisg> What's to focus? sbalneav applies, we vote him, end of story :D
[19:23] <sbalneav> Well, we need others as well, correct?
[19:23] <stgraber> alkisg: nope, we need to have the CC organize that, it's not so simple ;)
[19:23] <alkisg> Ah
[19:23] <highvoltage> sbalneav: I forgot some of the details, where would nominations be sent again, to the CC?
[19:23] <stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Council
[19:23] <highvoltage> sbalneav: or would we just do that publicly on the list?
[19:23] <alkisg> Does EC need 5 members? Or are 4 enough?
[19:23] <stgraber> ^^ that's the current process
[19:24] <highvoltage> ah yes! I actually noted it there (shew)
[19:24] <sbalneav> Well, currenly, we only have 3 members
[19:24] <Nubae> hmmm......so whats difference between CC and EC
[19:24] <highvoltage> Nubae: EC is edubuntu-specific, it's a delegated team of the CC
[19:24] <sbalneav> since LaserJock's dropping out, and I replace him, that still leaves 2 people who should apply.
[19:24] <stgraber> Nubae: CC is Community Council, so for Ubuntu
[19:24] <stgraber> Nubae: EC is Edubuntu Council, so for Edubuntu
[19:25] <highvoltage> Nubae: although in Edubuntu, the EC also oversees technical aspects of the system and the project
[19:25] <stgraber> and the CC owns the EC
[19:25] <sbalneav> Personally, I'd vote for both Nubae and alkisg for long term and sustained contributions.
[19:25] <stgraber> so we can't change our members without going through them for approval and organization of the elections
[19:25]  * alkisg will be around in education & ubuntu for a long, long time, but I'm not actually using the edubuntu DVD in my classrooms :(
[19:25] <Nubae> so for CC basically
[19:25] <highvoltage> sbalneav: I think alkisg is already a member isn't he?
[19:25]  * highvoltage checks
[19:25] <alkisg> I'm an edubuntu member
[19:26] <jbicha> so if Nubae gets elected to the EC, then he should automatically be an Edubuntu Member, right? hmm...
[19:26] <sbalneav> alkisg: right, but you may at some point.
[19:26]  * Nubae slaps alkisg with a fidsh
[19:26] <Nubae> so for CC basically)
[19:26] <alkisg> I hope so :)
[19:26] <stgraber> let me have a quick look through my mails
[19:26] <sbalneav> Currently, the way I see it, we've got 5 "regulars"
[19:26] <Nubae> ah, hence the push for motu
[19:27] <Nubae> righto
[19:27] <stgraber> I know I have somewhere the exact process of who can apply and who can vote
[19:27] <sbalneav> sbalneav, stgraber, highvoltage, Nubae, and alkisg
[19:27] <stgraber> (as approved by the CC)
[19:27] <sbalneav> with jbicha making a strong showing recently
[19:27] <stgraber> "We figured that there's no harm in making nominations open to a broader
[19:27] <stgraber> > group of people (~ubuntu-members), although the potential nominees would
[19:27] <stgraber> > be ~edubuntu-members (which is admittedly still a relative small group)."
[19:28] <stgraber> so that basically means you need to be at least an Ubuntu member to apply for EC (or be proposed), if you are only an Ubuntu member, you'll automatically be granted Edubuntu membership
[19:28] <Nubae> qfunk recently became motu
[19:28]  * highvoltage saw that
[19:28] <Nubae> but he hasnt been so active in edubuntu
[19:29] <alkisg> Is MOTUship a requirement for EC members? Why do we keep mentioning it?
[19:29] <highvoltage> Nubae: yep we could perhaps try to pull him in :)
[19:29] <Nubae> since his beef with arctec
[19:29] <Nubae> yeah
[19:29] <stgraber> alkisg: nope, but Ubuntu membership is
[19:29] <highvoltage> alkisg: not at all, but at least some technical background is highly beneficial
[19:29] <jbicha> ah, chicken and egg, Nubae can't be EC unless he's EM first but he can't be EM because we don't have enough in the EC unless we get LaserJock to assist
[19:29] <highvoltage> alkisg: especially since some technical role will be expected
[19:29] <alkisg> jbicha: ah, I got it, thanks :)
[19:30] <highvoltage> jbicha: yes that's why we need to fix up the EC asap
[19:30] <highvoltage> jbicha: *but*, he could still potentially become a member in time
[19:30] <Nubae> I'd also push for hilton to be involved somehow
[19:30] <alkisg> highvoltage: sure, I don't suppose someone will apply for EC membership and not have technical experience...
[19:30] <Nubae> he's got quite a vested interest
[19:30] <highvoltage> stgraber: jordan said that he's still available as EC member until the new council is elected right?
[19:31] <stgraber> highvoltage: yes
[19:31] <Nubae> then there's ahmuck who has been around for a while
[19:31] <alkisg> I don't think Ahmuch is focuced in edubuntu
[19:31] <highvoltage> stgraber: so technically we could still have an EC now or tomorrow?
[19:31] <alkisg> He's looking around for alternatives...
[19:31] <Nubae> ah ok
[19:32] <stgraber> highvoltage: yes
[19:32] <Nubae> jonny
[19:32] <highvoltage> I pinged him on jabber now, although his status says away
[19:32] <sbalneav> Well, if the ec can get together, and grant Nubae his edubuntu-membership
[19:32] <Nubae> hes more gentoo I guess
[19:32] <sbalneav> that would clear the way to alkisg and Nubae becoming ec
[19:33] <highvoltage> Nubae, alkisg: I suggest you get your membership applications up to shape, we may be able to do an impromptu meeting or even do it over mailing lists
[19:33] <alkisg> Maybe I could join the EC (as I'm already an edubuntu member), and then vote for nubae :)
[19:33] <stgraber> right, we'll then have sbalneav, alkisg and Nubae propose themselves for EC membership, then Edubuntu members can vote and that's it
[19:33] <highvoltage> alkisg: sorry, not aimed at you, you're already a member :)
[19:33] <stgraber> knowing that Edubuntu members is pretty much the future EC as we discuss it at the moment ;)
[19:34] <Nubae> ok ok, so practically, what needs to be done?
[19:34] <stgraber> Nubae: good wikipage will help
[19:34] <highvoltage> Nubae: do you have an application page on your wiki namespace?
[19:34] <Nubae> ummm... wiki page?
[19:34] <Nubae> I have nubae.com
[19:35] <alkisg> Nubae: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlkisGeorgopoulos
[19:35] <Nubae> and my launchpad page
[19:35] <Nubae> my sugar memebership page....
[19:35] <Nubae> ah thanks alkisg
[19:35] <Nubae> I shall innovate on yours
[19:36] <alkisg> Nubae: see also other people's pages, e.g. stgraber's, laserjock's etc
[19:36] <highvoltage> Nubae: see Preperation on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
[19:37] <Nubae> kinda like a linked in page but for ubuntu
[19:37] <highvoltage> yep, it's basically a page with your history and recommendations, so very much like a linkedin page
[19:38] <highvoltage> Nubae: feel free to also link to your linkedin page if you want
[19:38] <highvoltage> are we fine with scheduling the nomination period for next week?
[19:39]  * stgraber is
[19:39] <highvoltage> or do we want to allow more time to make sure that we can approve some members who want to stand for EC?
[19:39] <highvoltage> s/approve/review/ :)
[19:39] <stgraber> ;)
[19:39] <stgraber> I'd really like to have that going for next week
[19:40] <highvoltage> I guess, worst case scenario we could do it by e-mail, so we should be able to do it
[19:40] <stgraber> as I'll be presenting Edubuntu at UDS
[19:40] <highvoltage> I'm also in favour of getting it rolling for next week
[19:40]  * alkisg thinks a week is more than enough for any preperation needed...
[19:40] <stgraber> and want to show a well working community
[19:40] <highvoltage> indeed, ok so that's done then, nominations will start next week
[19:41] <highvoltage> shall we move on?
[19:41] <Nubae> yep
[19:41] <Nubae> I'll have my wiki page up in next couple days
[19:42] <highvoltage> ok, Luanchpad teams...
[19:42] <highvoltage> we had a whole lot of LP teams owned by lots of different people
[19:42] <jbicha> Nubae: this might be helpful too: http://blogs.ubuntu-nl.org/dennis/2009/05/13/how-to-become-an-ubuntu-member-the-easy-way/
[19:42] <highvoltage> one moment please... I have LaserJock on jabber
[19:42] <stgraber> I'll be discussing with highvoltage for the exact course of actions for EC nominations, you'll get an e-mail about it on all edubuntu mailing lists and fridge probably tomorrow
[19:43] <stgraber> (we'll need to go through the exact process we agreed on with the community council)
[19:43] <stgraber> jbicha: becoming an edubuntu member or a regular member is quite different
[19:43] <Nubae> sounds good
[19:44] <highvoltage> ok LP teams can wait
[19:44] <stgraber> I'm both a EC member and a membership approval board member and I don't really look at the same things depending on if you apply for Ubuntu or Edubuntu membership
[19:44] <stgraber> usually I know Edubuntu contributors a lot better than the guys I have to review for Ubuntu membership
[19:44] <Nubae> hi  LaserJock
[19:44] <LaserJock> hi Nubae
[19:44] <stgraber> hi Jordan !
[19:45] <jbicha> stgraber: right, the path is different but the end result is similar (although with the archive reorg...)
[19:45] <highvoltage> thanks for coming LaserJock
[19:45] <LaserJock> you caught me at a good time, just got back from a late lunch
[19:45]  * highvoltage hits the EC meeting gong *GONG*
[19:45] <stgraber> yeah !! :)
[19:46] <LaserJock> agenda?
[19:46] <highvoltage> Nubae: you're name is up on the agenda for membership (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda)
[19:46] <stgraber> Nubae is pretty much the agenda ;)
[19:46] <highvoltage> stgraber: well, for membership yes
[19:47] <highvoltage> LaserJock: we've been having an edubuntu meeting the last 45 minutes, we've discussed UDS Lucid and the EC elections already
[19:47] <LaserJock> oh, ok
[19:47] <highvoltage> Nubae: are you still here?
[19:48] <sbalneav> Nubae: awake awake fire foes awake!
[19:48] <Nubae> yeah sorry
[19:49] <highvoltage> Nubae: tell us about yourself and your involvement with Edubuntu
[19:49] <Nubae> yah hit me with your rythm stick
[19:49] <highvoltage> (and links to your wiki/web/etc pages would also be nice)
[19:50] <stgraber> https://edge.launchpad.net/~dvanassche
[19:50] <Nubae> well, I've cleaned up the edubuntu page bit, wiriting a little about every app availble on the current distros
[19:51] <Nubae> I also suggested which ones should be (universe based) on the DVD
[19:51] <Nubae> helped with release (website)
[19:52] <Nubae> gosh...  wrote a lot of LTSP handbook
[19:52] <alkisg> I think mentioning your current occupation would also be of interest...
[19:52] <sbalneav> Several chapters were Nubae's work.
[19:52] <Nubae> wrote little edu app called pyqclic
[19:53] <highvoltage> Nubae: I know where you work but it's best to tell us anyway, we make a formal decision based on your input so it's best to explain it to us as if we didn't know you
[19:53] <Nubae> ah... wwell, was until recently working for guadalinex-edu largest edu distro in the world
[19:53] <Nubae> I did leave this position willingly though
[19:53] <Nubae> as it was far too beaurocratic
[19:53] <Nubae>  basically, loads of paper work
[19:54]  * dinda facepalms having totally forgot this meeting
[19:54] <LaserJock> any bug or packaging work in Ubuntu?
[19:54] <Nubae> and I would be luck if what I documentd went to the rooad
[19:54] <highvoltage> Nubae: you said that you'd like to apply for EC if your ubuntu-membership is granted, you will have to deal with some beaurocracy as well then
[19:54] <Nubae> well, bugs yes, packaging outside ubuntu, never officially
[19:54] <dinda> highvoltage: can I catch you folks up on some news in #edubuntu after this meeting?
[19:54] <highvoltage> dinda: yep
[19:54] <stgraber> dinda: sure
[19:55] <highvoltage> Nubae: are you fine with dealing with some beaurocracy?
[19:55] <Nubae> this is a different kind of beurocrac
[19:55] <LaserJock> Nubae: what are your plans for Edubuntu 10.04?
[19:55] <dinda> great, give me a few minutes to read the log and will meet you folks over there in a bit
[19:56] <Nubae> what I meant was that basically the great ideas we had wçere never gonna see the light
[19:56] <highvoltage> Nubae: ok
[19:56] <highvoltage> Nubae: if not for 10.04, what is your future plans for Edubuntu?
[19:56] <Nubae> i dont mind paper work
[19:56] <Nubae> no problem with it
[19:56] <highvoltage> or what would you like to see happening in Edubuntu?
[19:56] <Nubae> but I like to see movement
[19:57] <Nubae> well, for one I think we can make great use of the underlying telepathy layer
[19:57] <Nubae> the ways are too many to tell
[19:58] <Nubae> but in immedidate future mkaing the meta package of universe edu apps we kinda tested would be nice
[19:58] <Nubae> to grow edubuntu give it some cred
[19:58] <highvoltage> Nubae: what brings you to education?
[19:59] <Nubae> I believe everyone should have the same right to an education no matter their race, color, sex, or whatever
[19:59] <Nubae> basically it should be free
[20:00] <Nubae> and it is THE way we will make a better world
[20:00] <Nubae> a laptop in ever childs hands would be a wonderful thing
[20:01] <Nubae> and it may still happen in our lifetimes
[20:01] <Nubae> its one thing we can dare be idealist about
[20:01] <alkisg> What are you currently working on? pyclic?
[20:01] <alkisg> sugar?
[20:01] <LaserJock> Nubae: you sort of took a break for Karmic and were doing quite a bit of work with openSUSE Education, what do you think Edubuntu could learn from that project?
[20:01] <Nubae> well, pyclic started off as a simple point and click on an image quiz
[20:02] <highvoltage> Nubae: you mentioned that you have core-dev like status at opensuse, would you be interested in doing anything that could bridge our relationship with opensuse and do some possible collaboration?
[20:02] <Nubae> but input from others has turned it into a quiz fora while subject with a range of different types of questions
[20:02] <Nubae> I'd like to make it compatible with moodle
[20:02] <Nubae> well, opensuse build service is amazing
[20:03] <Nubae> and if we can somehow use that
[20:03] <Nubae> and suse studio
[20:03] <Nubae> to lighten our work load that would be great
[20:04] <Nubae> I havent studied to what extent that is possible, but cyberorg keeps trying to convince me that its all possible
[20:04] <highvoltage> yeah we probably won't ever use that, for edubuntu's purposes canonical's build servers are more than sufficient
[20:05] <Nubae> u mean bulld service or suse studio?
[20:05] <highvoltage> both
[20:05] <LaserJock> probably either/both
[20:06] <highvoltage> Nubae: if we build packages in their buildd it won't be in the ubuntu archives, that would be kind of pointless
[20:06] <Nubae> ok cool, u dont want me to study the possibility?
[20:06] <Nubae> well, sure, u can link it to wherever u like
[20:06] <LaserJock> Nubae: if you had to be the "leader" of any area in Edubuntu (art, docs, QA, .iso building, etc.) what would you most likely be interested in
[20:06] <highvoltage> Nubae: canonical won't host images that we built elsewhere, and reasonably so, so that's not really an option for us either
[20:06] <Nubae> right but obs is open source
[20:07] <Nubae> we can take it and stick it on uuntu servers
[20:07] <LaserJock> Nubae: right, but we've already got package and .iso builders that work very well
[20:07] <stgraber> everythings that's part of Edubuntu must be built on Canonical's buildds and signed by the archive gpg key that's only available on Canonical's buildds
[20:07] <LaserJock> in terms of Edubuntu
[20:07] <LaserJock> anyway, that's a tad off-topic I think
[20:07] <stgraber> though it probably can be useful to some of our users for their own homemade distro
[20:08] <Nubae> ok, how does that stop us using obs to build debs on ubuntu servers signed with ubuntu keys?
[20:08] <Nubae> anyway, perhaps it deserves some research?
[20:08] <Nubae> or should we disregard it
[20:08] <Nubae> I'm just asking
[20:09] <stgraber> because the ubuntu key is only available inside Canonical's DC, so any binary compiled outside of it can't ever enter the archive
[20:09] <highvoltage> Nubae: I think it's best to make the OpenSUSE build system(s) a seperate discussion
[20:09] <stgraber> highvoltage: +1
[20:09] <Nubae> susestudio is totally different
[20:09] <highvoltage> Nubae: the short of it is that we can't and won't use it for official builds, we can talk about the details later if you want
[20:09] <Nubae> it basically allows u to create a distro by pointing and clicking
[20:10] <Nubae> probably not of interest
[20:10] <Nubae> outside being a curiosity
[20:10] <LaserJock> susestudio might be a possibility but seems like a huge maintenance burden
[20:11] <highvoltage> also, I think as stgraber said, it could perhaps be useful for custom edubuntu spins
[20:11] <Nubae> oh... but ONE area where we really DO wnat collaboration is linux-for-education.org
[20:11] <Nubae> in fact I've put 2 ubuntu specific moodle courses up there
[20:11] <Nubae> its totally distro agnostic
[20:12] <LaserJock> perhaps it would be useful to collaborate with the Ubuntu Learning Project on that
[20:12] <highvoltage> Nubae: I'd like some expansion on a question I asked you earlier, do you think there's scope for collaboration between edubuntu and opensuse-edu?
[20:12] <highvoltage> Nubae: and would you be willing to drive some of that?
[20:12] <Nubae> and really the only way to get a place with large amounts of lesson plans i by doing this together
[20:13] <Nubae> well, I already do pretty much all of linux-for-education.org sadly, though slowly people are coming on board.... but would be great to get some more courses on there... the 2 edubuntu ones we have up there are
[20:14] <Nubae> the perfect edubuntu deesktop
[20:14] <Nubae> and jazzing up your deesktop
[20:14] <Nubae> but I duuno how to drive more people to it?
[20:15] <highvoltage> Nubae: I asked about edubuntu and opensuse-edu, not linux-for-education ;)
[20:15] <Nubae> there are about 8-9 sugar courses, and loads of open source stuff
[20:16] <Nubae> well, that is kind of the combination of the 2 in lesson plan format
[20:16] <Nubae> what do u mean more specifically?
[20:17] <LaserJock> technology wise, process wise, community wise
[20:17] <highvoltage> Nubae: part of edubuntu is that we want to extend to similar projects and work on common problems together
[20:17] <dinda> Nubae:  the ubuntu learning project is doing similar stuff to the linux-for-education site, could your courses be housed in both places?
[20:17] <Nubae> ok, tech, we spoke about... basically we wanna go our own way mostly right?
[20:18] <highvoltage> Nubae: is opensuse-edu open to collaborate on common things?
[20:18] <Nubae> dinda, absolutely
[20:18] <highvoltage> Nubae: for build services, etc, yes.
[20:18] <Nubae> highvoltage, very much so
[20:18] <mhall119|work> dinda: I spoke to pleia2 about that
[20:18] <mhall119|work> combining linux-for-education and ubuntu-learning
[20:19] <Nubae> I think working on something that involves telepathy together would be cool
[20:19] <mhall119|work> she says as long as the license is compatible, then it's golden
[20:19] <Nubae> i dont know what yet, but some kinda of authentication system
[20:19] <highvoltage> I have no further questions
[20:19] <Nubae> something that would be like ldap, but easier
[20:20] <stgraber> I'm good too, thanks highvoltage for asking all the questions ;)
[20:20] <LaserJock> Nubae: so what made you come "back" to Edubuntu?
[20:20] <Nubae> and involve more services
[20:20] <Nubae> its not that I ever left
[20:20] <Nubae> its just that I discovered build service
[20:20] <Nubae> became sugar maintainer for opensuse
[20:20] <Nubae> etc
[20:21] <Nubae> but I've always been on this channel
[20:21] <LaserJock> but your last significant technical contribution was over 6 months ago
[20:21] <LaserJock> how will that change?
[20:21] <mhall119|work> Nubae: ubuntu-learning wants to start producing moodle courses, so those could be included into linux-for-education
[20:21] <mhall119|work> sorry if I'm interrupting
[20:21] <highvoltage> apologies accepted, you can talk about that after the EC section ;)
[20:21] <Nubae> LaserJock, the 2 moodle courses I made specifically for linux-for-education.org was about a month aho
[20:21] <Nubae> ago
[20:22] <Nubae> ok, its not direct, but its really just for edubuntu
[20:22] <LaserJock> highvoltage, stgraber: you guys ready?
[20:23] <Nubae> also pyqclic is being developed on ubuntu
[20:23] <Nubae> i wouldnt even know if it works on suse
[20:23] <stgraber> LaserJock: yes
[20:23] <highvoltage> I am
[20:23] <LaserJock> k, I'm ready then
[20:24] <Nubae> by the way pyqclic is ready for anyone to see use at the sugar git repos, though I wanna really expand it to be the quiz tool for subjects of choice
[20:24] <highvoltage> +1 on the grounds that he's been involved for so long and that he'll probably be for a long time still, and for his passion and commitment to the cause
[20:24] <sbalneav> Nubae: you know git?
[20:25] <Nubae> have ta.... its required for sugar
[20:25] <sbalneav> good, you can help me in a bit.
[20:25] <Nubae> git push git pull git
[20:25] <Nubae> k
[20:25] <stgraber> +1 for being around for a long time, helping with LTSP and commitment to helping education with linux
[20:27] <Nubae> mhall119|work, would be good for us to just mirror whatever is on each one
[20:27] <LaserJock> +1 , based on past contributions and the confidence of future ones. Please don't prove me wrong.
[20:27] <highvoltage> Nubae: congrats that'
[20:27] <stgraber> congrats and welcome aboard
[20:27] <highvoltage> Nubae: congrats that's 3/3! Welcome!
[20:28]  * Nubae goes to the corner store and gets wasted and says "suckers"
[20:28] <Nubae> :-)
[20:28] <dinda> Nubae: congrats!
[20:28] <Nubae> that was more for LaserJock
[20:28] <mhall119|work> Nubae: is there any way to automagically replicate moodle courses?
[20:28] <sbalneav> \o/ Nubae
[20:28] <Nubae> let me check there must be
[20:29] <alkisg>  Welcome on board Nubae :) (not that you weren't already...)
[20:29] <Nubae> sbalneav, what git work do u need?
[20:29] <dinda> mhall119|work: yes, they're pretty easy to export/import across Moodle servers
[20:30] <Nubae> kiind thanks for all the kind words
[20:30] <mhall119|work> dinda: is that manual?  or is there a way to automate it?
[20:30] <dinda> mhall119|work: I've done it manually as we have 2 servers; one for testing and another for production
[20:30] <highvoltage> ok that concludes the EC part of the meeting
[20:30] <dinda> mhall119|work: but I'd imagine some scripting could be done
[20:31] <sbalneav> Nubae: in edubuntu
[20:32] <highvoltage> == Launchpad Teams ==
[20:32] <highvoltage> we had plenty of unmaintained LP teams
[20:32] <highvoltage> today we changed most of the teams so that they belong to ~edubuntu-council
[20:33] <highvoltage> and the ~edubuntu-council team now belongs to the ~community-council
[20:33] <highvoltage> there are one or two teams that we're still trying to contact the owner so that they can hand it over, otherwise we'll just do it through an LP contact
[20:34] <Nubae> oh thats great news
[20:34] <highvoltage> the edubuntu-testers team is now disbanded- the testing effort will now be done with the ubuntu-qa team
[20:34] <Nubae> thats been a pain in the backside for ever
[20:35] <highvoltage> Nubae: indeed
[20:35] <highvoltage> == Edubuntu-members Proposed Members List ==
[20:35] <jbicha> ooh, and that has the neat advantage that all of the groups are listed on 1 page: https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu-council
[20:36] <highvoltage> jbicha: yes! :)
[20:36] <highvoltage> on https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu-members quite a long list of pending members
[20:36] <highvoltage> we've had the problem that some people who really wanted to apply didn't understand the process and never added themselves to the agenda
[20:37] <jbicha> what about the edubuntu-bugs team?
[20:37] <highvoltage> others didn't understand and just thought it is a group they can join to show support for Edubuntu
[20:37] <mhall119|work> I think I tried to join the LP group before I realized it was moderated
[20:37] <highvoltage> jbicha: we'll probably get ogra to hand it to the ec group
[20:38] <jbicha> & Launchpad doesn't allow you to unrequest joining :-(
[20:38] <highvoltage> yes, we need to explain what Edubuntu and Ubuntu membership is more clearly
[20:38] <highvoltage> post it to the list and have it somewhere easy to find on the site
[20:39] <mhall119|work> you can reject my request if you can
[20:39] <highvoltage> additionally, we'll have a generic group that we allow anyone to join to show that they're involved with edubuntu
[20:39] <mhall119|work> I'll re-apply when I've done something
[20:39] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: we'll do that for now
[20:39] <highvoltage> the plan is to reject all current requests with a link to a page that explains membership and the process
[20:40] <LaserJock> highvoltage: remember there is the ~edubuntu team
[20:40] <mhall119|work> I'm going for my Ubuntu Membership next week
[20:40] <highvoltage> LaserJock: yes that's the team that would be used
[20:40] <LaserJock> my guess is that could hold everybody
[20:40] <highvoltage> that's also some cause of applicants, some people apply to two councils
[20:41] <highvoltage> so they get approved in one and their application to the other lingers
[20:41] <mhall119|work> well I know now that I don't qualify for Edubuntu membership (yet)
[20:41] <highvoltage> so by cleaning up our list we'll be more able to handle new requests better
[20:41] <jbicha> I thought edubuntu-users was the generic group
[20:41] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: how do you know that? :)
[20:42] <mhall119|work> highvoltage: because I haven't contributed anything to Edubuntu (yet)
[20:42] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: and if so, why would you then apply for ubuntu membership? the requirements are the same
[20:42] <jbicha> but the confusion's part of the problem
[20:42] <mhall119|work> highvoltage: I have contributed to Ubuntu and my LoCo
[20:43] <mhall119|work> outside of Qimo, I've done a lot of advocacy and community work
[20:43] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: yep that would certainly cound, and qimo in itself as well
[20:44] <highvoltage> any questions on the LP teams?
[20:44] <highvoltage> (or comments, etc)
[20:44] <mhall119|work> highvoltage: nhandler said that my Qimo work may not mean as much, since it's not technically Ubuntu
[20:44] <LaserJock> I believe we've always used Edubuntu Membership = Ubuntu Membership + Edubuntu interest
[20:45] <jbicha> mhall119|work: oh, you're the Qimo guy! well, you should definitely get an application ready
[20:45] <mhall119|work> jbicha: it is ready
[20:45] <mhall119|work> just waiting for the 18th to roll around
[20:45] <LaserJock> highvoltage: what about LP teams that aren't "official" but are in the namespace?
[20:45] <mhall119|work> highvoltage: once I have Qimo packages for Edubuntu, I'll apply here as well
[20:45] <Nubae> I kinda see the qimo work as competing with edubuntu
[20:45] <Nubae> it would be better to join the efforts
[20:45] <mhall119|work> Nubae: not at all
[20:46] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: I would recognise it, considering that you're doing something to get the ubuntu and education combination out there
[20:46] <mhall119|work> Nubae: that's the plan, I just haven't been able to put Qimo into a contributable package
[20:46] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: and qimo has had great publicity and reviews, I'd think it would be very unfair not to give it credit
[20:46] <Nubae> yeah, we coudl call it edubuntu qimo though
[20:46] <mhall119|work> highvoltage: he didn't say there wouldn't be credit, just that it wouldn't be the same as contributing directly to Ubuntu projects
[20:46] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: yeah once you've got either membership you can get the other for 'free'
[20:47] <Nubae> like the preschool version of edubuntu or soemthing
[20:47] <mhall119|work> Nubae: the goal is to provide the Qimo desktop as a profile in Edubuntu, I think
[20:47] <Nubae> well not preschool
[20:47] <jbicha> what's special about the 18th?
[20:47] <Nubae> u know wht I mean
[20:47] <highvoltage> LaserJock: stgraber and I looked at the other teams and they were mostly loco-type teams, we think it's safe to more or less let them be
[20:47] <mhall119|work> jbicha: that's the next Americas board meeting
[20:47] <LaserJock> and my birthday!
[20:48] <mhall119|work> that too
[20:48] <jbicha> haha
[20:48] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: yes indeed, Qimo could provide a pre-school desktop for edubuntu
[20:48] <mhall119|work> highvoltage: as long as you don't mind the dependency on XFCE
[20:49] <mhall119|work> though with Sabayon, we could probably re-create it with Gnome
[20:49] <mhall119|work> I'm not sure exactly how that works
[20:49] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: I think it will add about 200MB to the DVD, besides that I don't think there are any issues adding it as optional packages
[20:49] <mhall119|work> ok
[20:49] <Nubae> no, it adds to it...
[20:49] <Nubae> definetly a + an lets people know
[20:50] <Nubae> we work together
[20:50] <Nubae> not competing distros
[20:50] <mhall119|work> Nubae: I never wanted to compete
[20:50] <Nubae> yeah unfortunately it kinda comes across that way like this other distro I keep forgetting the name of
[20:50] <Nubae> german/austrian
[20:51] <mhall119|work> Guadex or something like that?
[20:51] <highvoltage> We might have to get permission from some Canonical marketing people, etc... but from my side I'm completely happy providing links to any other educational distro from the edubuntu.org site
[20:51] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: Guadalinex-edu
[20:51] <Nubae> hehehe, no
[20:51] <mhall119|work> Nubae: the reason I didn't just use Edubuntu from the get-go was because I needed a light-weight LiveCD distro
[20:51] <Nubae> preschool design
[20:52] <Nubae> terrible
[20:52] <highvoltage> we're actually done with the items on the agenda
[20:52] <highvoltage> let's move to #edubuntu
[20:52] <mhall119|work> oh, heh, I didn't realize we weren't
[20:52] <Nubae> ok
[20:52] <highvoltage> thanks everyone
[20:52] <jbicha> haha
[20:52] <highvoltage> *meeting-done-gong*
[20:52] <jbicha> good night all!
[20:52] <highvoltage> goodnight jbicha
[20:53] <stgraber> thanks
[20:53] <alkisg> Bye all


[00:09] <Logan_> hi ochosi :)
[00:09] <ochosi> hey Logan_
[00:09] <ochosi> good to see you around :)
[00:14] <Logan_> bluesabre: any reason why this isn't in Utopic first?
[00:15] <bluesabre> Logan_: no particular reason, seemed more important to get it to trusty
[00:15] <bluesabre> but yeah, it should also make its way to utopic
[00:15] <bluesabre> so if you're up for uploading it... :-)
[00:15] <Logan_> > Check that the bug is fixed in the current development release, and that its bug task is "Fix Released". It is, in general, not appropriate to release bug fixes for stable systems without first testing them in the current development branch.
[00:16] <Logan_> I mean, this is just the adding of a Recommends, but it's still standard procedure :P
[00:16] <bluesabre> ah
[00:16] <Logan_> and does this change need to go to any other stable releases?
[00:16] <bluesabre> I filed the sru before utopic was open I think
[00:17] <bluesabre> no other stable releases
[00:17] <Logan_> ok
[00:18] <Logan_> I'll just change the target to utopic and upload to there (with you as the author in the changelog)
[00:18] <Logan_> and then I'll upload the SRU
[00:19] <ochosi> Logan_: actually we have a second SRU for you... :)
[00:19] <Logan_> link?
[00:20] <ochosi> i haven't filed the bugreport yet, but the lightdm-gtk-greeter 1.8.5 release
[00:20] <ochosi> https://launchpad.net/lightdm-gtk-greeter/1.8/1.8.5
[00:20] <ochosi> this is actually a good summary, as it is very short ^
[00:20] <Logan_> bluesabre: also, the "verification-needed" tag is generally only added by the SRU team after it's in proposed, so I'll remove that from the bug
[00:21] <bluesabre> thanks Logan_
[00:21] <ochosi> +^
[00:21] <ochosi> +1
[00:44] <ochosi> Logan_: if you can upload the greeter release to utopic too, that'd be a great start. i can try to get the paperwork ready tomorrow for the SRU
[01:10] <ali1234> okay, so the thunar crash changes depending on how many times you repeat the failed unmount
[01:10] <ali1234> and it also changes depending on whether it uses g_slice or malloc
[01:10] <ali1234> so there is definitely memory corruption of some kind
[01:12] <ali1234> so i figure repeating the unmount long enough will cause the crash without having to quit
[01:26] <ali1234> hmm well i fixed a gtk critical, but it wasn't the bug
[01:43] <ali1234> hmmmm
[01:43] <ali1234> so the crash changes depending on what view mode is in use, icons/list etc
[01:43] <ali1234> because each is a different component
[01:43] <ali1234> and it is this bit of memory that gets corrupted
[01:53] <ali1234> hmm
[02:01] <ali1234> getting somewhere... certainly looks like the early unref during failed unmount theory is correct
[02:02] <ali1234> the unmount operaton is done by glib and thunar passes in a bunch of callbacks
[02:09] <ali1234> wow... it's not the user callback
[02:18] <ali1234> it's not even the main callback... this makes no sense
[02:18] <ali1234> basically, calling g_mount_unmount_with_operation corrupts memory. the end
[02:23] <ali1234> hmmmmmmm okay
[02:23] <ali1234> the failed unmount part isn't even necessary
[02:24] <ali1234> all yohave to do is mount and unmount the same device 3 times then quit -> crash
[02:24] <ali1234> so i've been looking in the wrong place
[02:29] <ali1234> it has to be three times though
[02:31] <drc> " I have said it thrice: What i tell you three times is true."
[02:31] <ali1234> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgLj9lOwk
[02:31] <drc> That was my second choice :)
[02:35] <ali1234> any three will work too. you can mount then unmount three different drives and it still crashes
[02:35] <ali1234> no wonder it happens so much
[02:39] <drc> I haven't been paying real close attention...this is mounting/unmounting drives in thunar with 14.04?
[02:39] <ali1234> yeah, or 13.10
[02:39] <ali1234> although not tested with 13.10 there's just as many error reports from there
[02:39] <ali1234> and other distros too
[02:39] <drc> and usb external drives count?
[02:39] <ali1234> yes
[02:40] <ali1234> seems like it happens with anything that you can mount
[02:40] <drc> ok, I've plugged in 2 external usb drives and a usb thumb drive.  Now use thunar to unmount them?
[02:40] <ali1234> you only need one
[02:40] <ali1234> start with them unmounted
[02:41] <ali1234> mount then unmount three times, then quit thunar
[02:41] <drc> bingo
[02:43] <ali1234> the only change i can make in the code that prevents the crash is to not call g_mount_unmount_with_operation
[02:44] <ali1234> it still crashes, even if i hand it a no-op callback
[02:45] <drc> huh, using 3 different drive does not crash.
[02:46] <ali1234> it does for me...
[02:46] <ali1234> it also depends on which type of file view you have selected
[02:46] <ali1234> icon view is easiest and most consistent
[02:47] <drc> That's what I was using...still no crash with 3 different drives.
[02:47] <ali1234> this is a memory corruption bug so results are pretty random
[02:48] <drc> well, they say that the memory is the second thing to go :)
[02:52] <drc> nope, can't make it crash with 3 different drives, one drive thrice, everytime.
[02:55] <ali1234> hmm well here's a thng, it only happens with the shortcuts sidepanel, not the tree sidepanel
[02:56] <drc> I use the shortcuts panel.
[02:56]  * drc has a feeling that he's messing up ali1234's thinking.
[02:58] <ali1234> HMM
[02:58] <ali1234> hmmmmmm... this is a tricky one
[02:59] <ali1234> commenting: thunar_shortcuts_model_set_busy (THUNAR_SHORTCUTS_MODEL (child_model), device, TRUE);
[02:59] <ali1234> seems to prevent the crash
[03:03] <ali1234> and now we hit some gdk_threads code...
[03:04] <drc> good hunting...bed time :)
[03:15] <ali1234> maybe it isn't anything to do withunmounting... maybe it is the mounting
[03:17] <ali1234> argh... neither works.
[03:26] <ali1234> lol... 3 times crashes... 2 times doesn't crash, and 4 times doesn't crash
[03:27] <ali1234> 5 is right out...
[03:27] <ali1234> 6 crashes
[03:28] <ali1234> 9 crashes
[03:29] <ali1234> 8 does not
[04:18] <ali1234> i think i've figured it out...
[04:23] <ali1234> well, i've at least narrowed it down
[04:42] <Unit193> Logan_: Nope.
[05:12] <ali1234> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=723366
[05:12] <ali1234> pretty sure this is the problem
[05:17] <ali1234> aaaaaand... we don't have the fix in trusty
[05:20] <ali1234> yeah, they patched it in gtk3 and not gtk2
[05:33] <ali1234> this explains why i could not catch the memory corruption happening... the invalid signal causes corruption when you close the window
[05:33] <ali1234> ie the corruption did not happen until you quit thunar
[06:38] <ali1234> morning elfy. i figured out the thunar bug. it's a gtk bug :(
[06:40] <elfy> ali1234: yea read the backlog
[06:40] <elfy> thanks for finding it :)
[06:53] <ochosi> ali1234: congrats
[07:01] <ochosi> so if it's a bug in gtk, we gotta SRU the patch/fix for trusty
[07:01] <ochosi> should be doable
[07:11] <ali1234> it's a trivial patch, we just need someone to upload it in gtk+2.0
[07:12] <ochosi> yup, already asked in -desktop, but there's a dead silence there
[07:12] <ali1234> it's a bit early for them still
[07:12] <ochosi> depends, during the "hot phase" of trusty they were around :)
[07:13] <ali1234> i mean early in the day. it's 8 AM, they're probably still eating breakfast
[07:14] <ochosi> sure
[07:14] <ochosi> mmm, breakfast
[07:14] <ochosi> i think you just gave me an idea
[08:18] <brainwash> ali1234: nice work :)
[08:19] <brainwash> does this mean that every other distro is affected too?
[08:22] <ali1234> yes
[08:24] <brainwash> and why does it not crash when the user clicks the unmount icon?
[08:24] <ali1234> because it is random memory corruption
[08:24] <brainwash> ah ok
[08:25] <ali1234> hence the monty python references
[08:25] <ali1234> you have to call a specific function exactly three times
[08:25] <ali1234> three is the number and the number shall be three
[08:26] <ali1234> probably if you called eject the right number of times it would also crash
[08:27] <brainwash> I see
[08:27] <ali1234> essentially what happens is that when you do a mount or unmount operation, you register a parent window for any dialogues that will get opened (like password stuff)
[08:27] <brainwash> but only gtk3 has been patched? the upstream report was filed against gtk2
[08:27] <ali1234> gtk registers a signal on that window
[08:28] <ali1234> when the operation finishes it deletes the operation object, but doesn't unregister the signal
[08:28] <ali1234> when the window gets deleted (when you quit thunar) it calls that signal, which trashes memory
[08:28] <ali1234> so the corruption never happens until you quit
[08:28] <ali1234> which is why it was so hard to debug
[08:28] <brainwash> thanks for explaining this :)
[08:28] <ali1234> and yes only gtk2 was patched
[08:29] <ali1234> i mean gtk3
[08:29] <brainwash> but gtk2 should be still somewhat maintained.. or?
[08:30] <brainwash> I don't quite understand why they skipped gtk2 in this case
[08:30] <ochosi> just talked to seb128 in -desktop, we can file a bugreport, attach the patch and go for SRU
[08:31] <ochosi> ali1234: so there's no patch for gtk2 yet? i presume it will be pretty much the same though, right?
[08:31] <ali1234> it's identical
[08:31] <ali1234> the original bug report patch was against gtk2, but mclasen only applied it on gtk3 anyway
[08:32] <ochosi> right
[08:32] <ochosi> very nice...
[08:32] <ochosi> anyway, let's get that going
[08:32] <ochosi> gotta get some late breakfast, then i can write up that bugreport
[08:32] <ochosi> i guess the patch needs to be slightly altered (comment removed?)?
[08:32] <brainwash> mmh, so we have to do the sru work :D
[08:32] <ochosi> well, we need it
[08:33] <ochosi> as opposed to practically all others
[08:33] <ochosi> (apart from lxde maybe)
[08:33] <ochosi> (and studio)
[09:14] <slickymasterWork> elfy, you around?
[09:14] <elfy> yep
[09:15] <slickymasterWork> good morning
[09:15] <elfy> good morning to you :)
[09:15] <slickymasterWork> one thing about your xfce4 Mouse Settings proposal
[09:16] <elfy> yep
[09:17] <slickymasterWork> you're just proposing to change the designation of each step, right?
[09:17] <elfy> yep
[09:17] <slickymasterWork> ok, just want to confirm that
[09:17] <slickymasterWork> I'll have a review for you in about 30 minutes
[09:18] <elfy> only actually doing it because I had some real ones to do - otherwise I'd not have bothered :)
[09:19] <slickymasterWork> well, some of them really need some rewording, which it's mainly what your MP seems to be about
[09:20] <slickymasterWork> one other thing elfy, presently the test ask to
Click the "Devices" tab
 ->
Click the "Device:" menu

[09:21] <slickymasterWork> I think it should be changed to
Click the "Devices" tab
 ->
Click the "Device:" drop down list

[09:22] <elfy> write things on the MP - I'll read them there - otherwise I'll get confused - just working through the other optional stuff here
[09:24] <slickymasterWork> ok, will do
[09:48] <ochosi> ali1234: do you have an overview of the related thunar bugreports on launchpad?
[09:48] <ali1234> overview?
[09:48] <ali1234> there's like 50 of them
[09:48] <ochosi> all marked as duplicates?
[09:49] <ali1234> yeah, and even more not marked probably
[09:49] <ochosi> i'd like to link to a list or include them somehow in the SRU report
[09:49] <ochosi> i've written that one up now
[09:49] <ochosi> and am going to follow it up in -desktop
[09:49] <ali1234> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/thunar/+bug/1203296
[09:50] <ochosi> launchpad is killing me today
[09:50] <ali1234> i've already marked that against gtk+2.0 and the upstream gnome bug
[09:50] <ochosi> i had to submit that bugreport 5 times because it kept timing out
[09:50] <ali1234> yeah i've been getting that all night too
[09:50] <ali1234> bank holiday, everything falls apart
[09:50] <ali1234> they're probably putting out the fires about now
[09:51] <ochosi> mhm
[09:51] <ali1234> so anyway, that's the meta report for all this junk
[09:52] <ali1234> the explanation given on the gnome bug is the most concise though
[09:52] <ali1234> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=723366
[09:52] <ochosi> yup
[09:53] <ochosi> already added that to my report
[09:53] <ochosi> here it is btw: https://bugs.launchpad.net/gtk/+bug/1316509
[09:54] <ali1234> mark 1203296 as duplicate :)
[09:54] <ochosi> so ubuntu sponsors are processing this now, we just have to monitor it a bit
[09:54] <ali1234> nice work :)
[09:54] <brainwash> why didn't you reuse the existing bug report?
[09:55] <brainwash> just curious
[09:55] <ali1234> it's a bit messy after i added loads of bug watches and it imported the comments
[09:55] <brainwash> ah, makes sense
[09:55] <ochosi> yeah, for sru you want something cleaner
[09:55] <ochosi> so it gets processed faster
[09:56] <ochosi> darn, lp times out again on setting the duplicates...
[09:56] <ali1234> well, i suggest actually marking the other duplicate after it gets fixed
[09:56] <ali1234> to keep out "me too" noise
[09:56] <ali1234> that's assuming it gets fixed relatively quickly of course
[09:57] <ochosi> yeah
[09:57] <ochosi> i already linked to the bugreport anyway
[09:57] <ochosi> so i guess we can leave it at that for now
[09:58] <ochosi> btw, i took the patch directly from upstream
[09:58] <ochosi> i hope it applies on gtk2 in ubuntu
[09:58] <ochosi> had no time to look at that
[09:58] <ochosi> but if not, it should be fairly straight-forward to modify it accordingly
[09:59] <ali1234> yeah in gtk3 they removed the comment
[09:59] <ali1234> https://git.gnome.org/browse/gtk+/commit/gtk/gtkmountoperation.c?h=gtk-3-12&id=05f2f634260519b5448ffd53e8883412c0251443
[10:00] <ali1234> looks like he quietly fixed a load of other bugs at the same time :(
[10:01] <ochosi> maybe he felt ashamed because of them and hence tried to sneak the fixes in ;)
[10:07] <ali1234> yeah that patch also fixes a memory leak in set_parent
[10:08] <ali1234> we can put a workaround in thunar to call set_parent(NULL) before unref'ing the mountoperation
[10:08] <ali1234> this will prevent the crash, but cause a harmless memory leak, when gtk is not patched
[10:09] <ochosi> i asked in the upstream bugreport about getting the patch to gtk2 as well
[10:09] <ochosi> since folks in -desktop got all defensive about this being a simple oversight :)
[10:09] <elfy> lol
[10:09] <ali1234> heh
[10:10] <ali1234> that would be the best resolution. get a patched gtk2 in U and then SRU it back from there
[10:10] <ali1234> we might get the memory leak fixed then too
[10:11] <ochosi> yup
[10:11] <ochosi> that's the plan
[10:12] <ali1234> man, i chased this bug all over the code
[10:12] <ali1234> i ended up implementing a menu item labelled "crash" with the minimum code required to trigger it
[10:13] <ochosi> hehe
[10:13] <ochosi> well, nice work though!
[10:13] <ochosi> for the first time it looks like this will be fixed in due time
[10:14] <ali1234> got it down to this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7403729/ and i was like, "well, this has to be a Gtk bug." then i found the report
[10:14] <ochosi> holy crap, that's quite condensed :)
[10:21] <slickymasterWork> elfy, enlighten me something. In the 1575_Xfce4 Appearance Settings test you kept
From the launcher panel, click on the "Settings Manager" icon.

[10:22] <slickymasterWork> this is not valid anymore, or am I crazy?
[10:22] <ochosi> ali1234: have you tested the gtk patch btw?
[10:22] <ali1234> no :P
[10:22] <ali1234> but i am 99.999% certain it is the cause
[10:23] <ochosi> wanna join the discussion on -desktop
[10:23] <ochosi> ?
[10:23] <ali1234> okay
[10:23] <ochosi> ty
[10:24] <elfy> slickymasterWork: if it looks like I missed something - note it :)
[11:19] <slickymasterWork> elfy, https://code.launchpad.net/~elfy/ubuntu-manual-tests/XFCEOptional/+merge/218310 <- done
[11:19] <elfy> slickymasterWork: thanks :)
[11:20] <slickymasterWork> not sure if you'll agree with some of the suggestions elfy :P
[11:20] <elfy> I just did the catfish MP - that's all from the batch I just checked \o/
[11:21] <slickymasterWork> elfy, do you want me to also review the catfish MP?
[11:21] <elfy> slickymasterWork: you can when you've time :)
[11:22] <slickymasterWork> past me the link, please
[11:22] <elfy> https://code.launchpad.net/~elfy/ubuntu-manual-tests/1315491/+merge/218389
[11:22] <slickymasterWork> ok, thanks
[11:33] <slickymasterWork> elfy, https://code.launchpad.net/~elfy/ubuntu-manual-tests/1315491/+merge/218389 <- done
[11:34] <elfy> awesome slickymasterWork :)
[12:06] <elfy> slickymasterWork: pushed the big one back with the changes - if you want to doublecheck
[12:24] <elfy> o/ amigamagic
[12:24] <amigamagic> \o elfy
[12:38] <ali1234> thunar crash fix is now available at: https://launchpad.net/~a-j-buxton/+archive/gtk2mountop
[12:38] <ali1234> works for me, please test :)
[12:57] <elfy> ali1234: do I really need to boot into trusty to test it :(
[12:57] <ali1234> i guess so
[12:57] <ali1234> utopic would also work, if you force install the debs
[12:58] <ali1234> because the gtk version is identical
[12:58] <elfy> ok
[12:58] <elfy> will try and get a look a bit later today
[12:58] <ali1234> i don't know how you build for different versions in a ppa
[13:04] <amigamagic> it works
[13:04] <amigamagic> I just tried
[13:06] <amigamagic> btw, when I click on the triangle near the usb device, it will be completely removed so that I cannot mount it anymore unless I unplug and replug the device. Is this the expected behaviour?
[13:08] <ali1234> yes
[13:08] <amigamagic> ok
[13:09] <ochosi> ali1234: fix works
[13:09] <amigamagic> the unmount from the contextual menu doesn't crash thunar anymore
[13:10] <amigamagic> good job :)
[13:10] <ali1234> ಠ◡ಠ
[13:11] <ochosi> ali1234: well i added your ppa and upgraded the gtk2 packages and now everything unmounts/ejects again as it should
[13:12] <ochosi> added a comment to the bugreport to be sure
[13:31] <slickymasterWork> https://code.launchpad.net/~elfy/ubuntu-manual-tests/XFCEOptional/+merge/218310 <- Approved elfy
[13:31] <slickymasterWork> forestpiskie: ^^^
[13:54] <elfy> slickymasterWork: thanks - all done and synced now
[13:55] <elfy> ali1234: a +1 from me as well in trusty
[13:57] <ochosi> elfy: mind adding your +1 to the bugreport too?
[13:57] <slickymasterWork> thanks for all that work elfy boss ;)
[13:58] <ochosi> just to get this on the record for the sponsors
[13:58] <elfy> ochosi: was just doing that :)
[13:58] <ochosi> oh great :)
[13:58] <elfy> slickymasterWork: thanks for you checking them :)
[13:59]  * elfy thinks that by the time he writes the QA blueprint he can either not write anything at all - or write them and include :DONE :p
[14:00] <elfy> GridCube: hi - pressure is now off of the optional tests - all done and synced up to the tracker \o/
[14:00] <slickymasterWork> eh eh that's what I call being really pro-active elfy
[14:00] <GridCube> :) sorry i was of no help elfy :(
[14:00] <elfy> GridCube: that's ok - there will be more to do :)
[14:01] <elfy> and you can help with bzr too
[14:03] <elfy> GridCube: justhaving someone to write testcase edits - so that I don't have to write them, find someone to approve, then merge and sync will be an enormous help
[14:03] <elfy> and someone watching the trackers - bugs will need to be checked and added to the eventual bug blueprint
[14:04] <elfy> all stuff that slickymasterWork helped me with - but while he's happy to help - he's got Docs to worry about now :)
[14:05] <GridCube> elfy, alright, ill try to do some of those tasks
[14:05] <elfy> thanks GridCube - I need to add you into the QA team I think
[14:32] <amigamagic> I don't know if it could help but I too added a comment for the bug 1316509
[14:34] <ochosi> amigamagic: thanks, it's certainly good to show them that ppl have tested the patch successfully
[14:35] <amigamagic> I'm glad to help :)
[15:33] <elfy> lderan:  we need to look at the autopilot list - sort out those that are optional so we can ignore them and then decide which we should try and target this cycle
[15:38] <lderan> sounds like a plan
[15:44] <elfy> cool
[15:46] <elfy> as soon as I've sorted the blueprint out I'll get hold of you then :)
[15:54] <lderan> cool :)
[15:55] <sidi-valencia> http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2014/05/screenlocker-architecture-in-plasma-next/
[16:09] <ochosi> sidi-valencia: good read, i think i read something on this issue by martin before
[16:09] <ochosi> actually their solution is not so different from ours
[16:10] <ochosi> we also have three separate processes, if the greeter crashes, lightdm will bring it back
[16:10] <ochosi> lightdm handles the authentication
[16:10] <ochosi> and light-locker handles the grabs and toplevel window
[16:11] <ochosi> the only nuisance is the VT switching
[16:21] <sidi-valencia> ochosi, read my comment when it shows up
[16:21] <sidi-valencia> they can do even better with 3 processes ;P