[13:15] <LjL> good bots bad bots?
[13:30] <LjL> lovely
[14:10] <ikonia> what was the foolish stuff with thesheller all about ?
[14:10] <ikonia> is he known ?
[14:12] <LjL> i dunno
[14:41] <mneptok> "gay" as a derogatory epithet either indicates young age or decreased mental capacity. one man's opinion, baby.
[14:45] <ikonia> not really, it's quite common slang in parts of the UK, Manachester for example
[14:46] <mrmist> yeah, but it's common amongst those of young age, or with decreased mental capacity ;)
[15:26]  * Pici slides jrib a drink
[15:31] <jrib> thanks :)
[15:48] <LjL> late now, but ftr [16:06:52] <oCean> I think weeeebhbb is the ever-banevading lars (torben?)
[18:13] <Tm_T> FYI I just banned bshellz.net in #k
[19:55]  * Pici rolls his eyes
[19:56] <IdleOne> I even answered him in the proper form, you think he would have got the message :/
[23:30] <hypatia> /loin #ubuntu-ops-team
[23:30] <hypatia> errrrr
[23:30] <hypatia> hah.
[23:31] <jrib> ohnoes  you have revealed the super secret channel!
[23:43] <hypatia> lawl


[17:25] <MrDanDan> hei guys
[17:25] <MrDanDan> I still have the neuron-gateway issue with rc2
[17:26] <MrDanDan> when neutron-l3-agent, neutron-metadata-agent, neutron-dhcp-agent, nova-api-metadata won't get installed
[17:26] <MrDanDan> i just did a deployment


[07:16] <ara> morning!
[10:19] <ara> mvo: I am verying bug #369198 and I am seeing that selecting update-notifier from proposed, does not selects update-notifier-common for update as well, you have to select it manually
[10:19] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 369198 in update-notifier "update-manager auto-opened after each apt use when security updates available" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/369198
[10:19] <ara> mvo: is that expected?
[10:20] <mvo> ara: no, it should not matter is this case, but its certainly ugly
[10:22] <mvo> fixed in bzr, thanks
[10:22] <ara> mvo: :-)
[10:22] <ara> mvo: I will finish my verification tomorrow, as I have to wait one day for the pop-up to appear again
[10:23] <ara> mvo: ping me if you see that I haven't done it by, lets say, tomorrow 1pm :)
[10:23] <mvo> ara: thanks, I will do that
[10:24]  * mvo adds it to his gtg
[10:25] <ara> mvo: is gtg worth a try?
[10:26] <mvo> ara: I like it, I never liked todo software on the computer, but this one is pretty good
[11:04] <ara> mvo: michael, regarding bug #369198
[11:04] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 369198 in update-notifier "update-manager auto-opened after each apt use when security updates available" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/369198
[11:05] <ara> mvo: the fix only works after restarting the session. Is that expected?
[11:46] <mvo> ara: yes, the new update-notifier binary needs to run and that is started with the session
[11:48] <ara> mvo: ok. it is that implied? (restart of the session) or is there a way to communicate to the user?
[11:49] <mvo> hm, we could do that, but its not ideal because it would introduce new strings
[11:49] <mvo> as a workaround we could show a reboot required message
[11:51] <ara> mvo: I would do that. Being a SRU, I prefer to be on the safe side, but we can wait for sbeattie to wake up and ask him
[11:57] <mvo> ara: ok, I can prepare a new version
[12:39]  * ara -> lunch
[17:53] <sotomayor> hello people...may i ask a question or pm someone for help with a security situation?
[17:54] <fader> sotomayor: You're probably better off asking in #ubuntu rather than here
[17:54] <fader> And just ask your question, don't ask to ask :)
[17:54] <fader> #ubuntu is a good place to ask for help or support; #ubuntu-testing is used for coordinating QA efforts for Ubuntu
[17:54] <sotomayor> i cant find #ubuntu on my channel list
[17:55] <sotomayor> fader what are you most familiar with ubuntu?
[17:55] <fader> sotomayor: try typing "/join #ubuntu" -- it may be filtered out of your channel list somehow.
[17:56] <fader> I'm not sure what you're asking for your other question.
[17:56] <sotomayor> well my initial question was "did anyone know anything about cve-2009-0688"?
[17:56] <ubot4> sotomayor: Multiple buffer overflows in the CMU Cyrus SASL library before 2.1.23 might allow remote attackers to execute arbitrary code or cause a denial of service (application crash) via strings that are used as input to the sasl_encode64 function in lib/saslutil.c. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2009-0688)
[17:59] <fader> sotomayor: Yeah, sorry... I can't tell you much about that. :(  I'd still suggest trying in #ubuntu though.
[17:59] <sotomayor> ok i just type that channel in and could get it but i will keep trying...but thanks anyway
[18:00] <sotomayor> so that person before you called ubot4...is that a robot or a moderator?
[18:01] <fader> cr3, eeejay, schwuk: Checkbox meeting?
[18:01] <cr3> fader: sec, getting myself much needed coffee
[18:01] <fader> sotomayor: ubot4 is a bot that provides useful information like bug descriptions :)
[18:01] <cr3> fader: sip/skype/conference line?
[18:01] <schwuk> fader: .o/
[18:01] <fader> cr3: I'd prefer IRC or SIP/conference line -- I think we all know how I feel about skype at this point.
[18:02] <schwuk> cr3: I thought we were doing it in here because of technology FAIL
[18:02] <fader> +1
[18:02] <schwuk> cr3: everytime fader makes/takes a skype call, he has to cut himself
[18:03] <sotomayor> well when i type in"/join #ubuntu" do i click on the  channel,topic. or regular expression to find that site?
[18:03] <fader> schwuk: It's not a cut if you put a ring through it.
[18:03] <cr3> here might be annoying for the other folks, how about #ubuntu-testing-meeting?
[18:03] <schwuk> fader: touche!
[18:04] <schwuk> cr3: as you wish
[18:05] <eeejay> i am there
[18:06] <sotomayor> "/join #ubuntu"
[18:07] <fader> sotomayor: Just like that but without the "
[18:07] <sotomayor> ok
[18:07] <sotomayor> thanks
[18:10] <fader> eeejay: ping, #ubuntu-testing-meeting
[18:13] <sbeattie> sotomayor: actually, you might have better luck asking in the #ubuntu-hardened channel; despite its name, it's the defacto security channel, I believe.
[18:13] <fader> Hey, I learned something today :)
[18:14] <davmor2> fader: so what old stuff did you foget ;)
[18:14] <fader> davmor2: Who are you again?
[18:15]  * fader hugs davmor2.
[18:15] <fader> Just kidding.  I forgot where I put my other pair of glasses, not you.
[18:16] <davmor2> fader: :P
[18:17] <davmor2> funny though I'll give you that :)
[18:17] <fader> davmor2: Looks aren't everything.


[09:10] <Chipaca> good morning all!
[09:12] <mthaddon> o/
[09:15] <Chipaca> mthaddon: how's things?
[09:15] <mthaddon> staying healthy so far thanks - and you?
[09:16] <Chipaca> mthaddon: healthy *and* sane!
[09:17]  * Chipaca is winning
[09:18] <mthaddon> :)
[09:19] <Chipaca> mthaddon: I keep on going back to your 'operator framework documentation' document, and i'm thankful for it every time
[09:20] <mthaddon> ah cool, yeah, I saw you'd started work on rewriting the README. Glad that's proving useful
[09:46] <Chipaca> t0mb0: 👋
[11:07] <facubatista> Muy buenos días a todos!
[11:08] <Chipaca> facubatista: ｇｏｏｏｄ  ｍｏｒｎｉｎｇ！
[11:08] <facubatista> hola Chipaca
[11:26]  * Chipaca takes a braek
[11:51] <facubatista> the Framework.observe method gets whatever we pass it as a callback and checks isinstance(observer, types.MethodType)
[11:51] <facubatista> why it has to be a method?
[11:52] <facubatista> it exploded to me, I was doing a quick         self.framework.observe(self.on.upgrade_charm, lambda e: logger.info("[11:54] <Chipaca> I don't know why, when I saw that I thought "that should be something like `callable`"
[11:54] <facubatista> let's see if somebody has a reason for that, otherwise I'll fix it
[11:59] <Chipaca> facubatista: maybe better filed as a bug, people seem off today
[12:04] <niemeyer> facubatista: Events are persisted
[12:04] <niemeyer> facubatista: We don't want to store code in the database
[12:05] <niemeyer> facubatista: Hopefully the error method was indicative of what it needed to be, or was it not?
[12:05] <niemeyer> s/error method/error string/
[12:06] <Chipaca> niemeyer: I don't understand how one thing follows from the other
[12:06] <facubatista> RuntimeError: Observer method not provided explicitly and function type has no "on_upgrade_charm" method
[12:07] <facubatista> I understand now "Observer" as I read the framework code
[12:07] <niemeyer> facubatista: That's not entirely clear
[12:07] <facubatista> niemeyer, right
[12:07] <niemeyer> facubatista: Might be improved indeed
[12:07] <niemeyer> Chipaca: Which things thing follows what?
[12:08] <facubatista> Chipaca, we store the *method name*, not the method itself
[12:08] <Chipaca> niemeyer: events are persisted, we don't want to store code in the database, so the handler needs to be a method
[12:08] <facubatista> Chipaca, later we do a getattr, I guess
[12:08] <Chipaca> we store the method name? why?
[12:08] <niemeyer> Chipaca: Deferring
[12:09] <Chipaca> but we stored the event, and the charm is initialized so all the handlers are hooked up
[12:09] <niemeyer> Chipaca: we don't call the same observer twice unless it asks to be called again
[12:09] <Chipaca> why would we store the method name?
[12:09] <niemeyer> Chipaca: I just responded that one.. :)
[12:09] <Chipaca> no you didn't :)
[12:10] <niemeyer> Such a productive conversation
[12:10] <Chipaca> yes
[12:10] <Chipaca> you are being obtuse
[12:10] <Chipaca> please stop
[12:11] <niemeyer> Chipaca: I've been trying to explain things, and meanwhile you've been saying the equivalent of "I don't understand it".. unless you ask intelligent questions, I can't help you
[12:11] <facubatista> niemeyer, if I get an event foo, and I defer it, why can't we store "foo", then in the next run, we deliver "foo" to whatever is hooked at that time?
[12:11] <niemeyer> facubatista: Because of that issue above: we don't call the same observer twice unless it asks to be called again
[12:12] <niemeyer> facubatista: For that to happen, we need an identity for that "it asks"
[12:12] <niemeyer> facubatista: How would you do that for a lambda?
[12:12] <Chipaca> ok, now I understood, thank you
[12:13] <facubatista> but if I deferred it, I'm not asking to deliver me the event in the future? the problem is if I change the method or callable (charm upgrade) in the middle?
[12:13] <Chipaca> facubatista: but you might have multiple handlers for the event
[12:14] <Chipaca> facubatista: and only some of them deferred
[12:14] <facubatista> ah, right
[12:14] <facubatista> niemeyer, Chipaca, thanks!
[12:14] <facubatista> this is the kind of details we need to be sure is in the docs :)
[12:14] <Chipaca> facubatista: and in the errors :-D
[12:15] <niemeyer> facubatista: To be honest, I've been always double-hearted about the whole deferring thing
[12:15] <niemeyer> It might not pull its weight
[12:16] <niemeyer> It's also worth noting in this context that we err on the safe side..
[12:16] <niemeyer> Despite the apparent way it works, internally handlers don't really ask for deferring an event
[12:16] <niemeyer> They do the opposite: the ack the event as handled
[12:17] <niemeyer> The act of deferring prevents that acknowledgement
[12:17] <facubatista> niemeyer, deferring event across runs complicates a lot of little things (not only the code, also the developer thinking of the model) -- are there cases where deferring the event is the only sane option?
[12:18] <facubatista> (with "model" I didn't mean the juju model, but the "how my charm works and handle all system complexities")
[12:18] <niemeyer> This is a long way to say that deferring doesn't in fact trigger a complex path into the code.. we _always_ persist events, and then trigger a common path that handles pending events
[12:19] <niemeyer> That's what makes me feel a bit less bad about the complexity..
[12:19] <niemeyer> Our logic makes it harder for events to be lost, even if you never call defer() at all
[12:21] <niemeyer> facubatista: I would simply not explain any of that complexity until really required.. if people have to understand the details of that stuff, we failed
[12:21] <facubatista> niemeyer, mmm... if we don't persist it, and we crash while handling it... the Agent would not re-send it as we never acked it?
[12:22] <niemeyer> facubatista: I'm a bit confused about the context for this question.. we always persist it, right?
[12:22] <facubatista> (don't really know how the Agent works in this regard)
[12:22] <niemeyer> facubatista: Yeah, that's what I was trying to explain above: we *always* persist it
[12:22] <facubatista> niemeyer, yes, we always persist it; I'm challenging that decision :)
[12:22] <niemeyer> facubatista: This is not triggered by deferring
[12:22] <niemeyer> facubatista: The difference in deferring is actually very small in terms of overall behavior
[12:23] <niemeyer> facubatista: You simply flip a switch saying "do I remove this event now that I handled it?"
[12:23] <niemeyer> facubatista: Everything else is exactly the same
[12:23] <facubatista> niemeyer, yes, because we always persist it
[12:23] <niemeyer> Yeah
[12:23] <facubatista> niemeyer, bear with me a little in this other POV
[12:23] <niemeyer> facubatista: Which means that on crashes the event will be sent again
[12:24] <facubatista> niemeyer, what if we NOT always persist it? what if we persist it only when deferring? we may crash while handling it, yes, but shouldn't the Agent re-send the event?
[12:24] <niemeyer> facubatista: Not necessarily, and our events don't come only from the agent
[12:25] <facubatista> ah, right, it may be a pure internal event
[12:25] <niemeyer> facubatista: This entire logic works any time something calls emit()
[12:27] <facubatista> niemeyer, great, I see now all the picture, thanks!
[12:28]  * facubatista adds a note to improve that error message
[12:32] <niemeyer> facubatista: np, and it sounds healthy to continue challenging such options
[12:41] <Chipaca> niemeyer: question: in what situations do we expect snapshot/restore to be used?
[12:42] <niemeyer> Chipaca: Hopefully not much.. it's the underlying mechanism that enables StoredState, which is a much nicer interface for normal development
[12:43] <Chipaca> niemeyer: so https://github.com/johnsca/interface-mysql/blob/master/interface_mysql.py is not kosher then?
[12:43] <Chipaca> maybe it predates storedstate?
[12:45] <niemeyer> Chipaca: EventBase is not an Object at the moment.. I had an exchange here with facubatista recently covering that.. he was going to do some research to see how hard it would make it a more usual object
[12:45] <niemeyer> I think that's the only odd case we have
[13:07] <niemeyer> I won't be around for the standup today, but please drop me a note here if you need something
[13:15] <facubatista> niemeyer, comments on this would be great, thanks! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zKwzo26bNVFgohaRB_kdUCsFPY3OcjfcpQklGpkOHpc/edit#
[13:15]  * facubatista brb
[13:21]  * facubatista is back
[14:04]  * Chipaca wishes all standups went like that
[14:32] <axino> ah so this is where the cool kids hang
[14:32] <axino> hang out
[14:32] <axino> (is probably better English !)
[14:35] <facubatista> hello axino
[14:44] <Chipaca> mthaddon: https://github.com/canonical/operator/blob/06d242ff31b4a5cc6e7e829f9e8f99c6974def86/tbd_examples.md FWIW
[14:44] <Chipaca> axino: welcome!
[14:44] <axino> o/
[14:44] <Chipaca> mthaddon: I'm just staging stuff in that PR while I finish getting our docs ducks docked
[14:46] <mthaddon> Chipaca: nice! definitely like the format, makes sense
[14:46] <Chipaca> this assumes i understood the questions tho :-D
[15:01] <niemeyer> facubatista: Replied with a few comments
[15:01] <niemeyer> facubatista: In general it looks nice
[15:01] <niemeyer> Hello new people
[15:03] <facubatista> niemeyer, ack
[15:22] <facubatista> niemeyer, we are in the same page, then; there's one extra case annotated now in the spec, but I need to check with juju one detail about multiple parameters
[15:27] <facubatista> and confirmed!
[15:28] <facubatista> (multiple --breakpoint parameters is possible in juju)
[15:28] <facubatista> there are current cases for this, e.g. --overlay in juju deploy
[15:28] <niemeyer> I'd just accept --breakpoint=a,b,c as you suggested
[15:29] <facubatista> niemeyer, in reality, if the user goes and write --breakpoint=a,b,c, juju would set up JUJU_BREAKPOINT to "a,b,c", and it will work just the same :)
[15:29] <niemeyer> Right
[15:29] <niemeyer> As long as you define that this is the behavior :)
[15:29] <facubatista> the Spec is in good shape
[15:30] <facubatista> yay, my first spec here :p
[15:30] <niemeyer> 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏
[15:31] <Chipaca> facubatista: it's even better than that
[15:31] <Chipaca> facubatista: it's _the_ first spec here :-D
[15:32] <facubatista> jajaja
[15:32]  * facubatista -> lunch
[16:34]  * facubatista is back
[17:15] <Chipaca> hmm
[17:15] <Chipaca> facubatista: i just set the approved date on that spec, but then thought
[17:16] <Chipaca> maybe we should ask our juju friends first :)
[17:16] <facubatista> Chipaca, what about?
[17:16] <facubatista> I mean, ask them?
[17:16] <Chipaca> facubatista: whether they're ok with the changes to debug-hook
[17:17] <Chipaca> can't imagine a scenario where they block it though
[17:17]  * Chipaca might just be short of imagination
[17:17] <facubatista> Chipaca, it's a step in the milestone, but it's a good idea indeed to gain consensus in the spec itself
[17:18] <facubatista> Chipaca, who would be the persons to contact about this?
[17:18] <Chipaca> facubatista: I'll see if rick_h has a moment
[18:17] <Chipaca> facubatista: ok, no answer on that front, so I'd say let's leave it with jam
[20:23] <facubatista> YES YES YES
[20:23]  * facubatista dances the success dance
[21:00]  * facubatista eods and eows
[21:00] <facubatista> see you all on Monday
[21:37] <Chipaca> aw man i missed the success dance
[21:41] <niemeyer> Never too late for dancing..


 I am looking at the web site and can't seem to find it
[03:26] <Delta621> hey guys
[03:27] <Delta621> I've got an installation problem.Can anyone help me out?
[03:35] <Delta621> hi there
[04:28] <sam62> I've got an obscure video card that may be causing crashes during bootup. Can anyone help me ou?
[04:42] <sam62> I've got an obscure video card that may be causing crashes during bootup. Can anyone help me ou?
[07:01] <evilbug> 1.) there's a panel item in gnome called Drawer where all shortcuts are placed, how can i do that in xubuntu?; 2.) how do i add Places in the main menu?
[07:13] <mespejel> hi.. one question.. 64 bit edition is just for amd processors??? i cant use 64 bit edition with intel core duo???
[07:14] <evilbug> 64-bit is for all 64-bit processors.
[07:15] <evilbug> there are some compatibility issues with flash and some other stuff on 64-bit though. just stick to 32-bit, it really doesn't make a difference in performance unless you use it for scientific computations.
[07:15] <mespejel> i see
[07:16] <mespejel> thanks
[07:16] <mespejel> cause i read its for AMD64 or EM64T architecture
[07:16] <mespejel> so i was not sure about using it with intel
[08:39] <favro> is there a file I can edit/create to get autostarted apps? - there's no menu entry for it...
[08:55] <evilbug> favro- there should be one by default.
[08:56] <favro> evilbug: that was my impression as well...
[08:56] <evilbug> Applications > Settings > Autostarted Apps
[08:56] <favro>  Applications > Settings > Nothing About Autostarted Apps
[08:56] <evilbug> if there's not, then something went sideways at install. did you use the livecd or alternate?
[08:56] <favro> nada
[08:57] <evilbug> ?
[08:57] <favro> evilbug: alternate
[08:57] <favro> ?
[08:57] <evilbug> oh... the alternate worked better for me :| the livecd install didn't boot the newer kernels....
[08:58] <evilbug> did you have the cd verified after burn?
[08:58] <favro> everything is fine except for the menu entry for autostarted apps
[08:58] <favro> yeh did the md5 check
[09:02] <evilbug> and it's the 8.04.1 i_386 .iso?
[09:05] <favro> I need a file in ./.config/autostart for each app :)
[09:05] <evilbug> i'm not an expert on linux seeing as to how i'm new myself... but what i can tell you for sure is that it's been a bug about 18 months ago but i see it's been labeled as "fixed", and that cody can for sure help you out with it.
[09:09] <favro> I made the relevant dir/file and I'll log out and check
[10:42] <simoo> Hi, is there a way I can stop the network manager using the keyring?, sinse swapping to wireless I now have to enter a password every boot
[16:00] <vol> Hi. I'm not running xubuntu, but I did apt-get install of xfce, and I'm running in xfce. I'm trying to edit my menus. Looking online, I'm told to edit /usr/share/applications/cream.desktop, but this file doesn't exist. there are other files in /usr/share/applications. Should I modify one of them instead?
[16:01] <vol> I would like to add a few entries to a few menus such as "development" instead of creating a new menu
[16:02] <vol> Oh, sorry, I misread the instructions. This was for the app cream. Nevermind.
[17:46] <JinKazama> hi all :)
[18:05] <marenostrum> Hello. Xubuntu 8.04 here. How can I use Noscript add-on but let Flash content? There's a tab named "plug-ins" and there's a check box to ban Adobe Flash, but even when I uncheck it, noscript doesn't let Flash content. There says (retranslating from Turkish): "These settings are valid for the pages that are new or installed by yourself." I can't get what it means. How can I let Flash with Noscript still active?
[18:52] <ghetek> hey guys i need to share out /dev/md0 to 2 different users on the system so that both users can mount this as a share in windows. can i get some help please?
[18:59] <{NaTe}> hey there - just switched from Ubuntu to Xubuntu - wondering where I can configure the keyboard shortcuts
[19:00] <{NaTe}> any one here?
[19:01] <bytor4232> I'm here
[19:01] <danielm> {NaTe}: Checkout the Settings panel, -> Keyboard.. there is a 'shortcuts tab"
[19:01] <bytor4232> You have to be patient in IRC
[19:01] <bytor4232> Go to the settings manager, then click on keyboard.
[19:02] <bytor4232> Under shortcuts, click add
[19:02] <{NaTe}> awesome - thx, sorry 'bout the patience
[19:02] <bytor4232> Give the theme a name, then you can begin to bind your own personal keybindings.
[19:03] <{NaTe}> will do
[19:03] <bytor4232> Its all good man.
[19:03] <bytor4232> A lot of people blaze into the channel, ask a question, and leave before anyone can help.
[19:03] <bytor4232> Its a common problem.
[19:04] <{NaTe}> I'm sure - I just didn't see any activity so I wasn't sure if the chan was empty or not
[19:05] <{NaTe}> is the standard terminal xterm?
[19:05] <zoredache> try applictions \ settings
[19:05] <zoredache> settings manager
[19:05] <zoredache> ack... and then keybaord
[19:06] <zoredache> define standard?  xterm is install.   xfce4-terminal is probably installed
[19:07] <{NaTe}> just looking for the default from install that appears in "Applications/Accessories"
[19:07] <bytor4232> Its xfce4-terminal
[19:07] <{NaTe}> thnx
[19:45] <slow-motion> hi
[19:54] <the7thmagus> hey. I was wondering if xubuntu has all the same drivers and everything as Ubuntu. because my Netgear MA111 (prism2_usb) works in Ubuntu Hardy but not in Xubuntu Hardy
[19:55] <lesshaste> how do I stop the laptop going to sleep when I close the lid?
[20:02] <ra> Hello! I have a slow PC I would like to install xubuntu on, I have a Desktop CD but starting X is too resource intensive
[20:02] <ra> Can I start xubuntu from the CD without the X UI to see if the networking works?
[20:05] <zoredache> you probably want to start with the alternate installer cd
[20:06] <ra> can I test if the network works from there?
[20:53] <zoredache> ra: most wired devices can be easily tested there...
[20:54] <ra> thanks! I wasn't too clear about that "probably"
[21:03] <zoredache> what type of network card do you have?  You could also try checking on google
[21:09] <ra> ah no worries, there's nothing like checking this practically :D
[21:24] <ThePhoenix28> hi
[21:24] <zoredache> !hi | ThePhoenix28
[21:24] <ThePhoenix28> Can anyone help me/
[21:24] <ThePhoenix28> ?
[21:24] <zoredache> !anyone | ThePhoenix28
[21:24] <ThePhoenix28> I will
[21:25] <ThePhoenix28> I seem to be having a problem with hard drive detection
[21:25] <ThePhoenix28> because when i run xubuntu from the cd and load Gparted it dosent detect my harddrive
[21:26] <ThePhoenix28> and when I try to install xubuntu it freezes at the partion screen; it just keeps loading and loading
[21:26] <ThePhoenix28> anyone have any ideas?
[21:26] <zoredache> is it sata?  If so, you might try going into your bios and setting your sata controller to legacy mode
[21:27] <ThePhoenix28> no its not
[21:27] <zoredache> is the drive visible in the bios?
[21:27] <ThePhoenix28> yes
[21:28] <ThePhoenix28> i think its a ultra dma66 ide
[21:28] <ThePhoenix28> but im not entirerly sure
[21:29] <ThePhoenix28> which is probably the problem cause i have to use the "linux ide=nodma" command to get it to boot
[21:30] <zoredache> hrm...
[21:30] <zoredache> and you are using the most recent version of ubuntu?  8.04.1 (aka hardy)
[21:34] <zr> hi, I installed xubuntu on my p900 but I cant hear any sound
[21:34] <zr> alsamixer reports all channels are unmuted and a max
[21:34] <zr> no sound at all from speakers or heaphones
[21:34] <slow-motion> n8
[21:38] <mlynn5> where can i find info on how to connect to nfs shares with xubuntu?
[21:39] <TheSheep> !nfs
[21:49] <mlynn5> hmm, yes i've followed that guide and my ubuntu laptop can connect to the shares but my xubuntu second desktop cannot
[21:50] <zoredache> and you can ping the nfs server from computer that doesn't work?
[21:51] <mlynn5> yup
[21:52] <zoredache> hrm...  pastebin your /etc/exports perhaps?
[21:52] <mlynn5> i'm sorry, what do you mean?
[21:53] <zoredache> I mean post the contents of your /etc/exports file on the server to pastebin
[21:53] <zoredache> !pastebin | mlynn5
[21:53] <mlynn5> cool, thanks. sorry about that, i haven't had to do that before. will do
[21:55] <mlynn5> http://paste.ubuntu.com/38597/
[21:55] <zoredache> your are only allow a single ip address to connect  (<IP_ADDRESS>)
[21:56] <zoredache> you probably should replace the '<IP_ADDRESS>/....' with '<IP_ADDRESS>/<IP_ADDRESS>'
[21:57] <zoredache> that block of the config is not a range of addresses it needs to be netwwork/mask
[21:58] <zoredache> after updating your config you'll need to re-export on the server
[21:58] <mlynn5> damn! i get it, you were right
[21:58] <mlynn5> works now
[21:59] <mlynn5> thanks for checking that out for me
[22:10]  * ra congrats the xubuntu team for the "alternate cd" installer... ..the desktop one was too "heavy" for this PII450/192MB --- but the alternate one works just fine!
[23:44] <bhall_> Hello.  I'm looking to us Xubuntu for a university computer lab and have some questions about how to customize and set defaults for all users.  Mind if I ask away?
[23:49] <leche> bhall_: edit the skels in /etc/skel
[23:49] <bhall_> The users already exist, so that's not really an option.  I'll do that if I remaster the liveCD though
[23:49] <leche> if you dont have them, create them ^^
[23:49] <TheSheep> bhall_: most xfce-related defaults are in /etc/xdg
[23:50] <TheSheep> bhall_: but config files in their ~/.config override that
[23:50] <bhall_> Ah, I see.  Good tip.  Thanks.
[23:50] <bhall_> Is that were I could setup default theme, background etc?
[23:51] <bhall_> (I've been using a version of Xfce 4.0.6 that I modified years ago.  Things have changed a lot since then.)
[23:52] <TheSheep> bhall_: yes
[23:54] <bhall_> Cool.  /etc/xdg looks to have most of what I'm looking for.  Thanks.
[23:56] <bhall_> So, if I understand this, I can just remove /etc/xdg/autostart/bluetooth-applet.desktop or update-notifier.desktop and it just won't load those, right?
[23:57] <bhall_> Ok, it looks like everything I need is in /etc/xdg.  It's even very logically laid out.  (Thanks xubuntu/xfce devs!)
[23:57] <TheSheep> bhall_: yes, or you could edit them and disable them by adding a line to them
[23:58] <TheSheep> bhall_: so that they still display in autostarted applications, but the checkbox is unchecked
[23:58] <bhall_> Oh, so /etc/xdg/autostart is for all of Ubuntu, not just xfce?
[23:59] <bhall_> (bluetooth-applet.desktop for instance has the entry ShowOnlyIn=GNOME
[23:59] <bhall_> )
[23:59] <TheSheep> bhall_: yes, it's from the freedesktop.org specification, ideally it should be respected by all desktop environment
[23:59] <TheSheep> s


[14:00] <duanedesign>  /4
[17:40] <mirak> hi
[17:42] <mirak> how are the files synced between folders ?
[17:42] <mirak> when two computers are synced on the same folder ?
[17:42] <mirak> does it look at the time
[17:42] <mirak> of the last modified ?
[17:44] <mirak> i mean if i share a folder X on computer A, then i go to computer B and share X wich already exists and contains data, then what will happen ?


[03:14] <grantbow> Vallejo Hour is up!
[03:17] <akk> \o/
[03:17] <pleia2> woo, have fun :)
[03:17] <jamiedmattingly> woo hoo
[03:18] <grantbow> talking about Oncelots
[03:19] <pleia2> my stuffed animal narwhal is in the mail, fortunately ocelots are easier to find
[03:20] <jamiedmattingly> so what is an ocelot?
[03:21] <jamiedmattingly> do you have a stuffed animal for every version pleia2?
[03:21] <pleia2> a spotted wild cat
[03:22] <pleia2> jamiedmattingly: no, I casually have a bunch of them (I really like stuffed animals), started making sure I had an animal for each release with karmic
[03:22] <grantbow> for those following along http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/646 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocelot
[03:23] <akk> Is it really going to be an ocelot? What's the adjective?
[03:23] <grantbow> oneric
[03:23] <pleia2> oneiric
[03:23] <pleia2> means "dreamy" :)
[03:24] <akk> Oh, I saw that earlier and thought it was a joke.
[03:25]  * grantbow will nlearn to spell them soon
[03:25] <grantbow> lol, learn
[03:25] <pleia2> grantbow: it's going to be another feisty!
[03:26] <pleia2> sooo many spelling it as fiesty
[03:26] <akk> onerous ocelot
[03:26] <pleia2> I had to look up how to pronounce oneiric
[03:26] <pleia2> o-ni-rick
[03:27] <akk> emphasis on which syllable?
[03:27] <pleia2> first i
[03:27] <akk> wow, so it is like onerous
[03:27] <pleia2> yeah
[03:31] <grantbow> haha
[03:36] <jamiedmattingly> or ornery
[03:37] <jamiedmattingly>  my mamaw used to call me that
[03:37] <akk> ornery ocelot would be a great name
[03:38] <jamiedmattingly> can we petition to change it :)
[03:38] <grantbow> let me find the url to suggest names...
[04:20] <grantbow> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelopmentCodeNames
[04:20] <grantbow> Jamie and I had fun. nobody else showed this time.  We'll see how it goes.
[04:21] <akk> Two can be a good time.
[04:27] <pleia2> fun is the important part :) there was even one here in SF where only two of us showed up
[04:27] <pleia2> if I only I show up I still have wifi, so I can work on ubuntu-things, success!
[16:43] <MarkDude> http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-california
[16:43] <MarkDude> So that is a complete list of UH in Cali?
[16:44]  * MarkDude is planning a Lindependence Hour- and wants to make sure it does not happen the same day as other events
[16:58] <iheartubuntu> Happy International Womens Day to all women :)
[16:58] <MarkDude> +1
[16:59] <MarkDude> Here is to people making the SAME amount of money- without regard to their plumbing
[17:00] <MarkDude> I mean - new millennial age- earing power should be based on skill- not antiquated notions
[17:00]  * iheartubuntu needs a bigger screen to see IRC, browser and gwibber all at once :)
[17:00] <MarkDude> Gwibber rocks !
[17:00] <MarkDude> You like it iheartubuntu ?
[17:00] <iheartubuntu> Yah, Im on the Twitter bandwagon now. I just replied to you on it :)
[17:01] <MarkDude> Cool ;)
[17:01] <MarkDude> Good point
[17:01] <iheartubuntu> ha - twitter is fun
[17:02] <iheartubuntu> im having some DNS problems right now with my website (growing pains)
[17:02]  * MarkDude used it a few times a week while repping for a company
[17:02] <iheartubuntu> Im switching from blogspot to my own servers
[17:02]  * MarkDude uses it once a month for personal stuff
[17:02] <MarkDude> Good deal-
[17:02]  * MarkDude started some of the seeds already- have you started the Gooseberries?
[17:03]  * MarkDude just got 1 that was larger than a marble- the largest so far
[17:03] <iheartubuntu> I put a couple in small seed starter containers
[17:03] <iheartubuntu> Im going to start them indoors first
[17:03] <iheartubuntu> although weather is great here
[17:06] <akk> The one you gave me is still doing well ... it has 3 berries on it now (plus one that fell off, and I should have planted it, but I couldn't resist, I ate it! :)
[17:07] <iheartubuntu> International Womens Day is huge in Russia and other parts of Europe. You'll see men running around all carrying HUGE bundles of flowers around the city to give to their loved ones
[17:08]  * iheartubuntu wonders if anyone will notice if I swap my 8:5 monitor with a HD widescreen from another office here :)
[17:09]  * iheartubuntu goes to check video connections now!
[17:10] <iheartubuntu> does launchpad have a section showing updated software? updated PPAs? Im looking to find some source of updated ubuntu software
[17:17] <jdeslip> iheartubuntu: what about the update manager?
[17:17] <iheartubuntu> when programs get updated?
[17:18] <iheartubuntu> I would think there is some other source maybe on the web someplace
[17:18] <MarkDude> There is iheartubuntu
[17:19] <MarkDude> It can have some issues tho- Ubuntu is meant to be stable- using older versions helsp here
[17:19] <akk> There are backports repositories you could monitor.
[17:20] <akk> But that might not help if you're already running a cutting-edge ubuntu.
[17:20] <MarkDude> iheartubuntu, what are you looking for?
[17:20] <akk> Plus a gazillion small repos for specific software, and I don't think there's anything that tries to list those comprehensively.
[17:22] <MarkDude> iheartubuntu, this is maybe the best http://www.getdeb.net/welcome/
[17:22] <MarkDude> maybe
[17:22] <MarkDude> depending on WHAT you want
[17:45] <nhaines> iheartubuntu: I think we should probably start with: "What are you trying to accomplish?"
[17:46] <nhaines> It sounded like you just wanted a way to know when an Ubuntu release receives updates.  The maverick-updates mailing list is probably best for that.
[17:47] <nhaines> But if you're looking for packaged software that's newer than what Ubuntu ships with, that's entirely different and we can help there too.  :)
[17:53] <iheartubuntu> brb unplugging older monitor for newer widescreen :) shhhhh!!!
[18:00] <iheartubuntu> WOW huge monitor! My eyes will relax now
[18:06] <iheartubuntu> now i have more screen space than i know what to do with
[18:06] <iheartubuntu> but i LIKE it!
[18:11] <iheartubuntu> DarkwingDuck can we run Kubuntu Apps in gnome?
[18:11] <iheartubuntu> so i have a friend doing bitcoin. nhaines i think you said youve heard of it
[18:12] <iheartubuntu> he is using GPU to mine the coins
[18:12] <iheartubuntu> (wow my monitor is wider than my keyboard - weird!)
[18:13] <iheartubuntu> so he wants to hook up like 3 or 4 video cards to mine more coins
[18:13] <iheartubuntu> supposedly he will pull in serious coinage
[18:16] <iheartubuntu> apparently i am finding out, no monitor will ever be big enough :)
[18:17] <nhaines> iheartubuntu: yes, GNOME and KDE apps run great in the other desktop environment.
[18:18] <nhaines> iheartubuntu: and yes, I set everything to mine but I eventually determined it wasn't worth it and I should just beg for donations or sell things if I wanted bitcoins.  :)
[18:18] <iheartubuntu> haha
[18:18] <nhaines> It'd take a year for me to have a 80% chance of getting 50 bitcoins.
[18:19] <nhaines> And that's running 24/7.
[18:19] <iheartubuntu> this friend of mine thinks he can pull in $50 a day with a good enough setup (multi-core with expensive video cards)
[18:19] <iheartubuntu> he gets 50 coins in just a couple days
[18:20] <nhaines> It's all a bit random.
[18:20] <iheartubuntu> so he found out that you need GPU not just CPU
[18:20] <iheartubuntu> for any of you technically endowed. which im not (technically endowed)
[18:20] <iheartubuntu> and then he joined some team of miners which helps also
[18:21] <iheartubuntu> not just one computer
[18:21] <nhaines> Yes, when I use both I'm still only pulling 5800 kilohashes/s.
[18:22] <iheartubuntu> OMG he is doing like 100,000 kilohashes/s
[18:23] <iheartubuntu> i was doing 2600 before i gave up
[18:23] <iheartubuntu> he thinks he can quadruple that with better video cards and use more GPU power
[18:24] <iheartubuntu> 50 bucks a day is almost $20k a year. not bad for doing nothing
[18:27] <jdeslip> I there actually a way to convert it into $?
[18:27] <iheartubuntu> there are definitely things you can buy on the net with bitcoin
[18:28] <iheartubuntu> and people are converting them to paypal
[18:28] <iheartubuntu> so yes for sure
[18:32] <iheartubuntu> exchange bitcoins here http://mtgox.com/
[18:32] <iheartubuntu> its pricey. you might pay $2000 for a system that can mine like 5 bitcoins a day
[18:33] <iheartubuntu> so it would take a year to pay for itself
[18:33] <nhaines> Except that the difficulty increases every 40 days.
[18:33] <iheartubuntu> ohh it does?
[18:33] <nhaines> And so many people are mining that the difficulty has been increasing exponentially.
[18:34] <iheartubuntu> and i read someplace theres only so many bitcoins?
[18:34] <nhaines> Yes, the system is designed to generate no more than x many bitcoins.
[18:34]  * iheartubuntu back to my blog then :)
[18:36] <nhaines> iheartubuntu: you could accept donations in bitcoins.  :)
[18:36]  * nhaines only has 0.05 BTC.
[18:37] <iheartubuntu> if there are only X bitcoins, wont the valuer of the bitcoin eventually rise?
[18:37] <iheartubuntu> right now its 1 bt  = 1 USD
[18:39]  * iheartubuntu has .02 btc (and they were given to me)
[18:42] <iheartubuntu> so what if you mine 50 bitcoins a day, or even a week and then one day a bitcoin will be worth $10 USD?
[18:49] <nhaines> Well, the bitcoins are only worth what people will pay for them.  So it's going to be more predicated on whether or not there are goods and services available for purchase with bitcoin.
[18:55] <MarkDude> iheartubuntu, there are a few places that will take them- you can give them to Leo - if you like TWIT
[18:55] <iheartubuntu> laporte?
[19:25] <jamiedmattingly> whyat is bitcoin??
[19:25] <iheartubuntu> an electronic form of currency
[19:25] <jamiedmattingly> how is it 'earned' ?
[19:26] <jamiedmattingly> whats it for?
[19:27] <nhaines> jamiedmattingly: it's earned by selling or providing a service in exchange for bitcoin.
[19:27] <nhaines> It's for paying for things.
[19:28] <jamiedmattingly> thanks
[19:31] <MarkDude> it is an Anon way to do things also
[19:31] <nhaines> jamiedmattingly: the currency is based on encrypted data, and is still being generated.  At the moment, in exchange for contributing to generating bitcoins, if your computer completes a block first you are awarded coins.
[19:31] <MarkDude> read: non-traceable
[19:32] <nhaines> But unless you're mining, probably with a group of others (haven't done the math on that one), it's probably best to just start trading good and services.
[19:32] <nhaines> But the exchange value of bitcoin has been skyrocketing, so it may be a good investment.  It's definitely an interesting experiment.
[19:33] <MarkDude> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3929.0
[19:33] <iheartubuntu> as markdude says... non traceable :)
[19:33] <MarkDude> nhaines, is correct - the adoption rate will take a bit
[19:33] <iheartubuntu> the bitcoin client has a wallet, and you can easily send bitcoins as payment to someone for whatever you are trading for
[19:34] <MarkDude> Yep. Dont forget the good geek street cred
[19:35] <iheartubuntu> ha
[19:35] <MarkDude> Best reason, IMHO
[19:35]  * iheartubuntu is trying empathy for chat today
[19:36] <MarkDude> Happy with it?
[19:36] <iheartubuntu> not bad
[19:36] <iheartubuntu> its more integrated into the OS than pidgin is now
[19:37] <MarkDude> So unless I am mistaken http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-california  <<< that is the canonical list of ALL the UH taking place in this state?
[19:37] <MarkDude> Cool- do you think non-geeks would be happy with it?
[19:38] <MarkDude> pidgin was tooo funky last time I tried to get someone using that
[19:38] <nhaines> MarkDude: no, only the ones managed by the LoCo.
[19:38] <MarkDude> Is there another list?
[19:38]  * MarkDude is planning an hour- and want to make sure it is a differing day
[19:39] <nhaines> I understand that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Hour is the canonical list.
[19:40] <MarkDude> Cool - ty nhaines
[19:42] <jamiedmattingly> first monday of the month is vallejo's ubuntu hour
[19:43] <jamiedmattingly> last night was first one
[19:43] <iheartubuntu> im having a problem with empathy in that  new IMs are not flashing at me. a pop up will appear in the indicator applet, but once its gone, i have no idea someone texted me (my IMS are set to open in same window, not separate)
[19:44] <iheartubuntu> with pidgin it flashes at me and i know whats going on.
[19:44] <iheartubuntu> i like the blurps around the text here in empathy though
[19:44] <iheartubuntu> looks cool
[19:44] <nhaines> iheartubuntu: the Messaging Menu should turn green, I think.
[19:45] <iheartubuntu> i would think, but mine doesnt
[19:45] <iheartubuntu> i had several messages from people i did not know about until i click the icon
[19:45] <iheartubuntu> i wonder if its becuase i have gmail notifier running
[19:46] <MarkDude> Cool jamiedmattingly have you let any of the MLs know- I know a few people in your area have wanted events to go to
[19:47]  * MarkDude is offering to mail them :)
[19:47] <iheartubuntu> possible bug if its not turning green
[19:47] <jamiedmattingly> please do so thanks MarkDude
[19:47] <MarkDude> Cool - where is the link?
[19:48] <jamiedmattingly> pleia2,  helped me post it on loco page but i haven't done uch else with it
[19:48] <jamiedmattingly> link?
[19:48] <MarkDude> Give me a sec
[19:49] <MarkDude> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/team/686/detail/
[19:49] <MarkDude> But not on http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-california
[19:49] <MarkDude> So 4 places UH are listed
[19:50] <pleia2> http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-california only shows upcoming ones, you have to click on "past events" for old ones
[19:51] <pleia2> and it only lists 5 upcoming ones, you need to select "all events" for more
[19:51] <MarkDude> Ah- makes sense
[19:51] <pleia2> (there are only 5 at the moment)
[19:51] <MarkDude> jamiedmattingly, so we need a new one listed
[19:51] <jamiedmattingly> ok ill put next one up thanks MarkDude
[20:12] <iheartubuntu> what constitutes karma on launchpad? mine is dropping considerably :)
[20:27] <jdeslip> I think you get karma for submitting bugs etc...
[20:28] <jdeslip> I wouldn't worry about it, karma is worthless ;)
[20:31] <MarkDude> lol
[20:31] <MarkDude> says a dude that lives in Berkeley :)
[20:32] <MarkDude> Careful Jack the Hippies might take offense
[20:32]  * MarkDude is KIDDING here
[20:32] <MarkDude> That would be in the joking font- if there were one
[20:33] <MarkDude> iheartubuntu, He is correct- there is not much usefulness to it
[20:33] <MarkDude> You get it for helping others
[20:45] <jdeslip> set xrange [7:9]
[20:45] <jdeslip> I wouldn't worry about it, karma is worthless ;)
[20:45] <jdeslip> oh dear... it is nothing bad irc day...
[20:45] <jdeslip> another :(
[20:45]  * jdeslip hangs head in shame
[21:04] <iheartubuntu> karma
[21:04] <iheartubuntu> ;)
[21:32] <iheartubuntu> my hosting company uses ubuntu :)
[21:33] <iheartubuntu> ohh wow, no more blogspot for me!
[21:33] <iheartubuntu> http://www.iheartubuntu.com/2011/03/join-us-on-twitter.html
[21:33] <iheartubuntu> finally


[11:18] <sverrej> I get this error when trying to checkout a svn branch with bzr branch svn+http://foo/trunk  :
[11:19] <sverrej> bzr: ERROR: bzrlib.errors.KnitCorrupt: Knit <bzrlib.knit._KnitAccess object at 0x8a639ac> corrupt: incorrect number of lines 73 != 59 for version {svn-v3-trunk1:f4d88352-fc0f-0410-91c6-821c4d51a43f:my.opera.com%2Ftrunk:329}
[11:19] <AfC> sverrej: as ever in Open Source land, it would help your cause if you would tell people what version of Bazaar you were using, what OS distro, etc.
[11:20] <sverrej> I read about someone having the same problem, where the solution was to do incremental pulls, because bzr-svn uses too much memory, but that did't help.
[11:20] <sverrej> AfC: Sure :)
[11:21] <sverrej> Ubuntu Gutsy, Bazaar 0.92.0.candidate.1 and bzr-svn-0.4.4
[11:21] <sverrej> Should be latest version
[11:22] <sverrej> I have a backtrace too. I'll post it somewhere
[11:24] <sverrej> http://pastebin.com/m51c4dba3
[13:32] <lifeless> moin
[13:44] <mwh> morning lifeless
[13:48] <sverrej> good morning
[13:57] <lifeless> bbiab
[14:01] <zerok> hi :-) short question: when you push a changeset to a remote repository, is there some hook that could be exploited for example for automatically updating the working tree there?
[14:19] <beuno> zerok, there is a plugin calles "push-and-update", that might be what you're looking for
[14:19] <beuno> it runs locally, and updates via SSH, so make sure you have SSH access
[14:20] <beuno> I'm not sure you can add a hook on the server side without having smart server running as the "push" command is done entirely locally, but the push-and-update plugin works fine if you have ssh access
[14:20] <zerok> beuno, thanks :-)
[14:20] <beuno> zerok, :D
[14:46] <pbor> can I use bzr-svn to do a smarter merge of two svn branches?
[14:47] <pbor> lemme explain... I have a svn repo with a branch "foo" and trunk that have diverged a bit
[14:47] <pbor> now I want to merge foo into trunk
[14:47] <pbor> and I was wondering if using bzr-svn could help
[14:48] <jelmer> pbor: Yeah, it should at least be smarter than "svn merge"
[14:49] <pbor> jelmer: but if I use bzr to checkout svn/branch/foo and svn/trunk, is bzr smart enough to understand they are branches of the same repo?
[14:50] <jelmer> pbor: Yes, it will recognize if they have common ancestry
[14:53] <pbor> jelmer: cool... I guess my best bet is get bzr latest and bzr-svn latest, right?
[14:53] <jelmer> yep
[16:04] <jdong> does Launchpad currently support dirstate-tags format branches?
[16:04] <Peng> Can you try it and see?
[16:05] <jdong> well I tried running a bzr upgrade over sftp:// and it sat there spinning for 15 minutes
[16:05] <jdong> on a fairly small sized repository
[16:05] <jdong> I figured someone here might directly know, without me risking creating junk on LP
[16:09] <lifeless> jdong: yes it does
[16:10] <lifeless> jdong: generally launchpad supports anything supported by the release-1 of bzr
[16:11] <jdong> lifeless: fantastic; how do I convert an existing branch to dirstate-tags?
[16:12] <jdong> was I just impatien with bzr upgrade?
[16:57] <lifeless> jdong: yes, I think so :)
[16:57] <lifeless> jdong: it takes a backup for safety
[18:40] <MishaS> hi. can somebody recommend a doc about bzr merging? :)
[18:44] <beuno> MishaS, maybe this?  http://doc.bazaar-vcs.org/bzr.0.92rc/en/user-guide/conflicts.html
[18:48]  * MishaS is checking the suggested doc
[18:49] <MishaS> beuno, thanks, but it seems to address only part of my misunderstanding :)
[18:50] <beuno> MishaS, what are you looking for specifically?
[18:54] <MishaS> beuno, let's have i have 'trunk'
[18:55] <MishaS> beuno, and a lot of people (at least somebody beside me :)) is working on that
[18:55] <MishaS> beuno, now i started to work on a new feature: bzr branch trunk new-feature
[18:56] <MishaS> beuno, i did some changes to the branch and would like to catch up with trunk changes: bzr merge; <resolve conflicts if any>; bzr ci -m 'merged with upstream'
[18:56] <MishaS> beuno, now, for one week i do not touch my branch as other things were happening
[18:57] <MishaS> beuno, in one week i decided to catch up with changes again and my natural reaction is/was: bzr pull
[18:57] <MishaS> beuno, how it does not work.  i need to again 'bzr merge' and then 'bzr ci'
[18:57] <beuno> MishaS, that's correct
[18:58] <MishaS> beuno, so i'm looking for a document that would clarify why it must be done like this :)
[18:58] <beuno> MishaS, you can also use the SVN-like model, and use checkouts
[18:59] <MishaS> beuno, sorry, i don't exactly follow :)
[18:59] <beuno> MishaS, http://bazaar-vcs.org/FAQ#head-73f0b8ea8515a0087ce8705fbaafc55c80a0a30e
[18:59] <dato> beuno: uuh, that wouldn't quite work, since he's working in a separate branch?
[18:59] <beuno> that might help
[18:59] <beuno> dato, right, he'd have to do bzr update on a frequent basis
[19:00] <MishaS> beuno, without having my changes committed?
[19:00] <beuno> MishaS, what about that workflow don't you understand?  If the parent branch has changes, you have to merge them into yours
[19:01] <beuno> MishaS, you have to have your changes commited so conflicts can be resolved
[19:01] <MishaS> beuno, yes, but i did it once and then nothing was changed, why should i resolve non existing conflicts again?
[19:01] <beuno> MishaS, you don't have to resolve conflicts if there aren't any
[19:02] <beuno> if the merge was clean, you just have to commit the changes to your repository
[19:02] <beuno> or work on them, and then commit
[19:02] <beuno> conflicts are only for when bzr can't guess how to merge the changes
[19:02] <beuno> so you have to interveen
[19:02] <MishaS> beuno, i kinda _feel_ inconsistency...
[19:03] <MishaS> beuno, and cannot really explain it... :(
[19:03] <beuno> MishaS, that it's a bit hard for me to help  :D
[19:03] <beuno> have you used other VCS before?
[19:03] <MishaS> beuno, probably the behaviour i expect is that after that merge new changes would be just on top of the last merge without additional effort
[19:03] <beuno> or rather, how would you want the workflow to work?
[19:04] <beuno> MishaS, ah, I understand
[19:04] <MishaS> beuno, i have :)  and it was never like this :))  i just hope that bzr is closer to what i aniticipate... :)
[19:05]  * MishaS used cvs, visual source safe, p4, and now is jumping between svn/git/hg/bzr :)
[19:05] <MishaS> (p4 was not for too long though)
[19:05] <beuno> MishaS, have you taken a look at: http://bazaar-vcs.org/Workflows
[19:06] <beuno> I'm not sure why merge can't just bring the commits into the revision history, one of the devs can probably answer that better then me
[19:06] <MishaS> beuno, yes, it was quite some ago though....
[19:07] <MishaS> i would say that _some_ merges cannot be brought directly, but if they can, why not?
[19:08] <MishaS> and probably something like rebase would be more appriate for me..
[19:09]  * beuno looks ar abentley, fullermd and jam-laptop for input
[19:10] <dato> rebase *may* be what you want, *but* it doesn't fit the recommended bzr workflow
[19:10] <MishaS> (appropriate)
[19:11] <MishaS> dato: what do you mean "does not fit"? i believe if a feature is developed using 'rebase' than when it's merged to trunk it looks clean and nice, no?
[19:11] <lifeless> ~.
[19:11] <hstuart> MishaS, I think one of the ideas is to allow you to merge another developers changes without having to commit them to your branch, for looking at experimental features or what have you - at least that makes sense to me
[19:12]  * MishaS is now complete lost :)
[19:12] <dato> MishaS: well, in eg. git you can do many things with rebase, like merging commits into only one, and in general making them "nice"
[19:12] <lifeless> MishaS: rebase sacrifices collaboration for prettiness
[19:12] <fullermd> Hm?  What?  Who called?  The goldfish were in the blender when I got there, I swear.
[19:13] <dato> MishaS: in bzrland, though, people have normally nothing against merging branches with many small commits, including those "merge upstream" ones
[19:13] <beuno> and I also heheh
[19:14] <MishaS> ok. now, i think, i get it: bzr priorities are 'collaboration' and only then 'prettyness'.  that actually helps to understand the things. really.
[19:15]  * fullermd doesn't quite understand the question...
[19:15] <dato> fullermd: "why do merges which generate no conflicts require a commit"
[19:15] <lifeless> MishaS: there is a rebase plugin for bzr.
[19:15] <dato> fullermd: more or less
[19:16] <fullermd> Mmm.  Well, in this case, merging trunk into your branch, you wouldn't want rebase; that would cause big honkin' ugliness when you merge back into trunk.
[19:16] <fullermd> Rebase is more for merging your branch back onto trunk, erasing all your intermediate steps.
[19:17] <MishaS> lifeless, thank you
[19:17]  * MishaS checks bzr web site for rebase plugin
[19:17] <Peaker> fullermd: don't you want to merge in your branch, and try to only push to trunk?
[19:17] <Peaker> when you say rebase you make me think ClearCase
[19:17] <MishaS> fullermd, rebase will make my changes quite separate from trunk
[19:18] <fullermd> Well, that's a workflow question; neither answer is "right" per se, it depends on what you're trying to accomplish.
[19:18] <fullermd> I don't go in for push to trunk flows, since that could change trunk's LHS.
[19:18] <MishaS> fullermd, if i really have to 'merge with upstream' only when there are conflicts it'd still look 'clean' in the changelog, otherwise they do seem to make the changelog a bit too overloaded
[19:19] <Peaker> I think its probably easier to test the coherency of your work in your own branch where you usually do the work, so merges happen there, and when you push to trunk you know you are making it identical to your copy
[19:19] <Peaker> fullermd: LHS?
[19:19] <fullermd> Well, even if there are no conflicts, there still has to be a new revision, because you're making a state that doesn't already exist.
[19:19] <lifeless> Peaker: left-hand-side history
[19:19] <Peaker> lifeless: what does it mean?
[19:20] <fullermd> Some of the other DVCSen automatically commit if there are no conflicts (mtn and git I know do; not sure about hg).
[19:20] <lifeless> a merge merges two revisions X and Y to give Z. Z:[X,Y]
[19:20] <MishaS> fullermd, i see.
[19:20] <Peaker> lifeless: with common ancestor B, yeah
[19:20] <lifeless> the left hand history is what you get by following just X at every step
[19:20] <fullermd> bzr doesn't.  I like that better; it means you can supply a more meaningful commit message.  Also, just because there are no textual conflicts, doesn't mean there aren't any conceptual conflicts.
[19:20] <lifeless> Z.parent_ids[0] -> Z.parent_ids[0].parent_ids[0] etc
[19:21] <fullermd> e.g., somebody renamed a function that your code calls.  Merge won't find any conflicts, since there aren't any textual clashes in your changes, but now you're trying to call a function that no longer exists.
[19:21] <lifeless> Peaker: a merge does not imply a common ancestor :)
[19:22] <Peaker> lifeless: how can a merge be without one? Revision 0 is always a common ancestor, isn't it?
[19:22] <Peaker> fullermd: so you want such a revision to be considered a merge?
[19:22] <lifeless> well, null: is a theorietical common ancestor, but if you have partial history for two branches, then you may not reach null:, nor a common ancestor.
[19:23] <lifeless> we'll still allow a merge commit to be recorded then, though doing the merge is harder :). But this what joining two existing imports or projects does.
[19:23] <Peaker> lifeless: then how can you make a meaningful merge? You have a working tree merge, but not a history merge?
[19:23] <fullermd> Peaker: Not sure what you mean by 'considered a merge'...
[19:23] <Peaker> fullermd: that problem can happen when you merge into trunk, too, can't it?
[19:24] <Peaker> fullermd: I mean, why is it a factor against pushing into trunk?
[19:25] <Peaker> fullermd: if you push into trunk, you know that if it worked for you in your own development branch, then it will work for trunk, push has the nice property that it will be identical, so you know what's going to be there.. when you merge into a far away branch, you have theoretically no idea what the result is going to be
[19:26] <Peaker> lifeless: is there any way to do the opposite, btw? Split the histories of your working tree into separate projects?
[19:26] <lifeless> bzr split
[19:26] <Peaker> lifeless: ahhh, that explains a few things :-) Now I know why svn plugin uses that format...
[19:27] <Peaker> (bzr help split explains a few things, that is)
[19:28] <fullermd> Peaker: But pushing into trunk will change the LHS history, which means changing the revnos and the output from log, and I don't want that.
[19:28] <fullermd> Peaker: My above statements weren't re: pushing into trunk; they were re: merge requiring a commit.
[19:29] <Peaker> fullermd: I see. I don't have enough experience watching revno's/logs to understand that problem you're mentioning, I guess
[19:29] <fullermd> The 'rollup' action of log is really handy for those situations.  It means my merges into trunk can give a quick description of the changes, and most of the time that's all anybody needs to see.
[19:29] <Peaker> fullermd: I do know that when we worked with ClearCase (yikes) there was no pull/push, only merge, so you could endlessly merge from/to trunk and never be sure the trees are identical
[19:30] <fullermd> Then they don't need to schluff through the 50 commits it took me to get it right when they're just browsing the history, unless they really need to delve into the internals.
[19:30] <Peaker> fullermd: I see, I guess you could use an empty merge from trunk before pushing for that purpose
[19:31] <Peaker> fullermd: oh, wait, forget that :)
[19:31] <Peaker> fullermd: if you're trusting developers to keep trunk clean and not pqm, then merging into trunk is a little dangerous, isn't it?
[19:32] <fullermd> Well, discharging small arms is dangerous, but I still spent Saturday afternoon doing it   ;p
[19:33] <Peaker> are you into weapons? :)
[19:33] <fullermd> Well, that's how I keep cow-orkers from messing up trunk, see.
[19:34] <Peaker> most of us in Israel handle weapons at one time or another..  (Robert Collins)'
[20:27] <lifeless> :)
[20:27] <lifeless> commit speed++
[20:30] <mwhudson> lifeless: it would be good to get bzr.dev landings announced in here by some bot
[20:31] <beuno> there is a plugin somewhere to have an IRC bot hook into commits
[20:32] <lifeless> beuno: bzr.dev commits are done by pqm, on a firewalled machine.
[20:32] <lifeless> mwhudson: pity launchpad won't announce to IRC: )
[20:32] <beuno> lifeless, maybe we can have a mirror of bzr.dev and have the bot on a different server?
[20:33] <beuno> might have a delay, but still might be usefull
[20:33] <lifeless> beuno: well it is announce to the bazaar-commits list
[20:34] <beuno> lifeless, that might work too, a bot parsing those emails
[20:34] <Peaker> I don't understand how launchpad can be usable until it has shared repo's... it really is insane to upload entire repo/history for every branch
[20:34] <beuno> and would speed up a bit
[20:34] <lifeless> Peaker: we're looking at addressing the upload overhead there; shared repos are just one way to handle that.
[20:35] <Peaker> lifeless: what other ways are there?
[20:37] <lifeless> stacked pack repositories looks quite promising and may scale better for a multiuser site like launchpad
[20:38] <mwhudson> lifeless: we don't need no new features, mate
[20:40] <lifeless> mwhudson: a feature a month keeps the doctor away
[20:40] <mwhudson> lifeless: the problem here is the word "a" :)
[20:41] <Peaker> lifeless: what are stacked pack repos, compared to ordinary repos?
[20:42] <fullermd> Repos with more feminine allure?
[20:43] <lifeless> Peaker: a way of combining data from separate repositories
[20:44] <fullermd> bzr unionfs.
[20:45] <Peaker> lifeless: when I upload a branch to launchpad, I'd somehow have to tell it that it shares/combines data from another repo if I am to avoid uploading history? would it require explicit data from the user?
[20:48] <lifeless> Peaker: magic 8-ball says future hazy, ask again later
[20:50] <Peaker> :)
[21:14] <lifeless> jam-laptop: it landed :)
[21:22] <dato> is somebody tracking what's pending to merge for 0.92, and should I send a patch that splits  NEWS in the appropriate place, since 0.92 got branched off? (which leds me to ask: what of bzr.dev is 0.92 material, and how should it get merged, cherry-pick?)
[21:22] <lifeless> dato: it will get merged/cherrypicked yes; I'm not sure what commits are what to be honest :)
[21:22] <lifeless> poolie will need to make that call as RM


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