[02:14] <lordmetroid> bug 420873
[02:28] <lordmetroid> bug 1
[02:48] <lordmetroid> bug 420889
[02:49] <ScottK> lordmetroid: There's really no point in tossing random bugs into the channel.  People likely to work on a particular package likely get the bugmail too.
[02:50] <lordmetroid> I see, cause I toss UbuntuOne bugs into the UbuntuOne channel and they seemed to like it so I thought I would do the same here
[02:50] <lordmetroid> Thanks for clearing that up
[02:51] <ScottK> We get a few more than they do.
[02:51] <lordmetroid> I understand
[02:51] <ScottK> We have an entire IRC channel for this if people want it.
[06:38] <TheSteve0>  I keep trying to download the dailys of karmic and it can't get past 100 megs before bombing out
[06:38] <TheSteve0> are there torrents or somewhere else other than cdimage to download nightly images?
[06:51] <sbeattie> TheSteve0: there are torrent files published alongside of the isos and you can also use rsync/zsync/wget -c to continue an aborted download.
[06:53] <TheSteve0> sbeattie: I do not see the torrents listed here http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/20090828/
[06:53] <TheSteve0> where should I look for the seeds
[06:54] <wgrant> TheSteve0: Do you want the alternate CD, or the desktop CD?
[06:54] <wgrant> The former is probably easier to get.
[06:54] <TheSteve0> wgrant - I don't care - I just want to use the nightlies for karmic
[06:55] <TheSteve0> I am nuking my laptop and figure alpha 5 is close enough that I should just go with nightlies
[06:55] <wgrant> TheSteve0: Grab the .jigdo and .template for the CD you want from that page, heeding the warnings in red at the top.
[06:56] <TheSteve0> wgrant: and then what do I do?
[06:56] <wgrant> Then 'jigdo-lite whateveritis.jigdo'. That will try to grab all the files from a mirror, which should be faster than cdimage and more likely to work than a torrent.
[06:56] <TheSteve0> wgrant: rock - thanks
[06:57] <wgrant> TheSteve0: Some files might no longer be present on the mirrors. If jigdo tells you that, finish the image off by rsyncing from cdimage.
[08:40] <mdke> kees: I saw the slight edit war on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo - I'd say that the best option is to revert it again if you aren't convinced by the user's arguments and contact him (cc ubuntu-doc@) to explain
[09:25] <lifeless> whats current best practice for automake* as a build-dep
[09:25] <lifeless> just a versioned dep on it?
[09:36] <kees> mdke: yup, though given it's always on a timed out wiki lock, I wonder if he hasn't realized it yet.  was going to email him anyway.
[09:38] <kees> superm1: so... fglrx-installer and nvidia-173 didn't work at all on karmic to start with?  :P
[10:41] <mdke> kees: cheers
[11:28] <manuel> hi
[11:29] <manuel> i have a problem with hal when i use my laptopp for 1 or 2 hours hal is using my hdd to 100 percent and i cant work anymore
[11:30] <manuel> i tracked it down to hal-acl-tool --reconfigure
[11:30] <manuel> this command is called every milisecond or so and cause the hdd spin
[11:31] <manuel> why and how can i stop this?
[11:40] <joaopinto> manuel, have you checked launchpad for bug reports  ? If not please report it
[11:41] <maxb> Hi, LP 406245 is an upstream update that's been waiting for main-sponsorship for some time. It was filed before FeatureFreeze, missed FeatureFreeze whilst waiting for sponsorship, and now has an approved FFe. Is there anything appropriate to do to draw sponsors attention to it?
[11:46] <manuel> how could i search efectiflyy after my bug?
[11:54] <joaopinto> manuel, https://bugs.launchpad.net/, if you can't find it, report it
[11:54] <manuel> ok thanks
[12:28] <larsivi> I get following errors when upgrading today, in the configuration of dkms
[12:29] <larsivi> /etc/init.d/dkms_autoinstaller: line 1: syntax error near unexpected token `)'
[12:29] <larsivi> /etc/init.d/dkms_autoinstaller: line 1: `invalid GC parameter) 13'
[12:29] <larsivi> a warning says it is missing LSB information
[12:32] <manuel> what should be in the bugreport?
[12:36] <larsivi> manuel: good question ...
[12:38] <manuel> i will pastebin it here so you can have a look
[12:44] <manuel> larsivi: can i attach a file on the bug report?
[12:51] <manuel> http://pastebin.org/13077
[13:05] <manuel> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/hal/+bug/421051
[13:20] <Q-FUNK> hi! I'm wondering if there's any plan to fix GDM to be able to use themes for gdmgreeter again?
[13:27] <Lutin> is requestsync known to be broken in karmic ?
[13:28] <Q-FUNK> Lutin: in what way?
[13:28] <Lutin> Q-FUNK: http://pastebin.ca/1547065
[13:29] <Q-FUNK> odd
[13:30] <Q-FUNK> I was gonna say that the only breakage I've seen is when Debian's log server hasn't been updated, but what you've pasted is Python crashing.
[13:30] <Q-FUNK> mind you, I've had a lot of other Python apps crashing in Karmic, but not requestsync
[13:30] <Q-FUNK> still, I'd venture that it's cuased by yet another generic breakage in Karmic's Python
[13:31] <wgrant> No.
[13:31] <wgrant> It's the launchpadlib split.
[13:31] <Lutin> oh, and when trying to launch it from within a schroot I get this: http://pastebin.ca/1547069
[13:31] <Q-FUNK> wgrant: ah?  so requestsync needs to have its depends adjusted?
[13:31] <wgrant> A couple of days ago we got the new launchpadlib, where most of the code now lives in lazr.restfulclient.
[13:32] <wgrant> Q-FUNK: No - ubuntu-dev-tools code needs to be fixed to work with the new one.
[13:32] <Q-FUNK> wgrant: ah,ok. it's a known issue then.
[13:32] <wgrant> Lutin: That's caused by an incompatible version combination of launchpadlib, lazr.restfulclient and wadllib. How'd you install them>?
[13:32] <wgrant> Q-FUNK: I don't think it is.
[13:33] <wgrant> Q-FUNK: I hadn't seen it mentioned before now.
[13:33] <Lutin> wgrant: huh, "apt-get install ubuntu-dev-toolsé
[13:33] <Lutin> s/é/"
[13:33] <Q-FUNK> wgrant: ok, can you file a bug for it?
[13:33] <wgrant> Lutin: Hm, odd.
[13:34] <wgrant> Q-FUNK: I can't reproduce right now, so I'd rather somebody who can did.
[13:35] <Q-FUNK> Lutin: would you file the bug, then, please? include wgrant's explanation about what causes it
[13:35] <Lutin> sure
[13:36] <Q-FUNK> thanks!
[15:49] <Laney> Installed-Size: [-10024-] {+8728+}
[15:49] <Laney> anyone want to save some CD space? ;)
[15:57] <hyperair> ooh O_o
[17:36] <Abdullah9> any one can help me ?
[17:38] <Abdullah9> any 1?
[17:56] <ldlework_> YokoZar: are you around?
[18:24] <superm1> kees, no idea on nvidia-173, but fglrx is getting support from AMD later in the cycle. you'll be better off evaluating your change on jaunty until that happens I believe
[18:25] <kees> superm1: okay, noted.  thanks!
[19:01] <Rocket2DMn> kees, this RootSudo stuff is going to turn into a digital shouting match
[19:02] <kees> Rocket2DMn: yeah, I've emailed him via LP now.  I figure the docs team plus the security team is more than enough weight.  :P
[19:04] <Rocket2DMn> kees, I had hoped my note would be enough, but I guess not.  I pinged mdke in the doc team channel to get his feedback as he is also a CC member, but he hasn't responded yet.
[19:05] <Rocket2DMn> kees, for the record I don't really like the idea of that info being on that page, I know we don't allow it on the forums, but I was overruled by the doc team and matthew, so I will support that decision
[19:05] <kees> Rocket2DMn: yeah, mdke and I chatted somewhere in scroll-back there -- he asked me to email him.
[19:05] <Rocket2DMn> I think I was offline when you chatted with him
[19:05] <kees> Rocket2DMn: ah, didn't know about the ban on that in the forums.
[19:06] <kees> I think it's useful information especially for server admins with an existing fixed admin process in a heterogeous data center.
[19:07] <kees> strictly speaking, it's fundamentally no more or less secure -- it's a usability characteristic, and people can get themselves into odd situations on the desktop if they actively log in as the root user.
[19:07] <Rocket2DMn> yeah, there is info in the serverguide about enabling root on servers.  I think the community docs are primarily for desktop users though, and not those in a managed environment
[19:08] <kees> You have a fair point.  Perhaps link to the server docs then?
[19:08] <Rocket2DMn> however, I'm not here to argue the point, I'll back the decision that the doc team and security team reach.  I made my argument and it was heard, that is enough
[19:08] <Nafallo> man sudo_root <-- both desktop and server have this one AFAIK
[19:09] <kees> Rocket2DMn: sure, yeah, I didn't know about the forum ban on it.  regardless, thanks for watching the page.  :)
[19:09] <kees> Nafallo: hunh, good point.  :)
[19:09] <Rocket2DMn> hehe, "rtm" isn't very useful on the wiki
[19:10] <kees> it demonstrates parity between on-system docs and wiki docs.  :)
[19:10] <Rocket2DMn> yeah kees , it's no problem, the situation is above me.  Now I just watch it unfold :)
[19:10] <kees> heh, cool.  I gotta run...
[19:10] <Rocket2DMn> ok, cool, thanks kees


[19:01] <hannie> Hi everyone
[19:01] <hannie> Here is the agenda: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting
[19:02] <godbyk> Hey, hannie.
[19:03] <hannie> While we wait for everyone to be here, perhaps we can read the comments that godbyk added to the agenda?
[19:06] <hannie> godbyk, shall we wait for Chris, andrew and Tony?
[19:06] <godbyk> hannie: I figure we can give them a couple minutes and then get started.
[19:06] <hannie> ok
[19:09] <godbyk> I texted Andrew and he's afk. He said he may be back in about an hour. So we don't need to wait for him.
[19:09] <hannie> Jim Connett said he could not attend, but he wants to continue working on the manual
[19:09] <godbyk> Okay.
[19:09] <hannie> letś start then
[19:09] <godbyk> Agreed.
[19:10] <godbyk> #startmeeting
[19:10] <meetingology> Meeting started Sat Jul 14 19:10:00 2012 UTC.  The chair is godbyk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[19:10] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[19:10] <godbyk> Hello, everyone.
[19:10] <godbyk> The agenda for this meeting is available at <http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting>.
[19:10] <godbyk> #link http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting
[19:10] <PaddyLandau> Hello.
[19:10] <hannie> present
[19:10] <godbyk> #topic Attendance
[19:10] <godbyk> We'll have everyone say 'hi' to collect attendance real quick.
[19:10] <hannie> hi
[19:10] <PaddyLandau> hi
[19:11] <hannie> not a crowd, but no problem :)
[19:11] <godbyk> Makes for a short roll call. :)
[19:11] <godbyk> Andrew just texted me and said he should be here in 5-10 minutes.
[19:11] <godbyk> #topic Review Precise cycle
[19:12] <godbyk> Shortly after we released Getting Started with Ubuntu 12.04, I posted a message to the Ubuntu Manual mailing list to collect people's thoughts on what worked well and what didn't during that release cycle.
[19:12] <godbyk> I've collected those responses and dumped them into the agenda notes: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting
[19:12] <hannie> godbyk, I added a few lines on this at the bottom of the comments
[19:13] <godbyk> hannie: Thanks.
[19:13] <godbyk> We haven't collected feedback from the public yet.
[19:13] <hannie> no, should we?
[19:13] <godbyk> I think it's a good idea to do so, but I wanted them to be able to read the manual for a bit first.
[19:13] <hannie> Perhaps use the forums?
[19:13] <PaddyLandau> May I ask how you collect the comments from the public?
[19:14] <godbyk> Now that the manual has been out for a couple weeks, we can put together a survey.
[19:14] <PaddyLandau> For future, would it be a good idea to have a survey ready and post the link inside the manual itself?
[19:14] <godbyk> A simple way to do it is to use a Google Form and post the link to the forums, Ubuntu Planet blogs, mailing lists, etc.
[19:14] <godbyk> If we want a more complex survey, I can install some software on our website to do that.
[19:14] <hannie> good idea!
[19:15] <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Probably!
[19:15] <PaddyLandau> OK, something to keep in mind, then. That would give a much greater response, I think, provided we position the survey request at a couple of suitable points within the manual.
[19:15] <godbyk> That's certainly something we can do for 12.10.
[19:15] <godbyk> Agreed.
[19:16] <hannie> +1
[19:16] <godbyk> Let me make a note real quick.
[19:17] <godbyk> Okay.
[19:17] <godbyk> I'll send an email to the list after the meeting to solicit questions and figure out what we'd like to hear from our readers and other community members.
[19:17] <godbyk> Then we can put together a survey and post it to the forums, mailing lists, blogs, etc.
[19:18] <PaddyLandau> Good idea. But we should keep the survey very simple, because many people lose patience after 5 or 6 questions.
[19:18] <godbyk> I can also set up a<EMAIL_ADDRESS>email address to collect reader feedback and we can print that in the manual as well.
[19:18] <hannie> Yes, I agree on that too
[19:18] <godbyk> PaddyLandau: +1
[19:18] <hannie> So questions must be to the point
[19:18] <PaddyLandau> godbyk: Cool.
[19:18] <godbyk> Does anyone here have anything to add about how things went last cycle?
[19:19] <godbyk> I'll be reviewing the responses over the next couple days and trying to address them as needed.
[19:19] <hannie> Yes, about TeX live
[19:19] <PaddyLandau> Not from me. I think everything has already been covered.
[19:19] <godbyk> hannie: Fire away!
[19:19] <hannie> Will this be in the repository as from 12.10?
[19:19] <hannie> I thought I had read that
[19:19] <godbyk> hannie: TeX Live 2012 was just released a few days ago.
[19:19] <PaddyLandau> It's already there. I've uninstalled the old one and installed the new one from the repository.
[19:19] <ajmontag> hello, sorry to be late
[19:20] <hannie> welcome, ajmontag
[19:20] <godbyk> hannie: I *think* that the Debian team has been reworking all of their texlive packages for the past year or thereabouts.
[19:20] <PaddyLandau> Hi ajmontag.
[19:20] <godbyk> hannie: And I *think* that the new texlive packages should appear in Ubuntu 12.10.
[19:20] <godbyk> There is already a PPA for them.
[19:20] <godbyk> I've tested the PPA and those packages do work and successfully compile the manual.
[19:20] <hannie> ok, we'll see.
[19:20] <PaddyLandau> Hannie: It's already there. I've uninstalled the old one and installed the new one from the repository.
[19:20] <hannie> ok, PaddyLandau did it work fine?
[19:20] <godbyk> So hopefully we'll be able to use the Ubuntu texlive packages in 12.10 to build the manual instead of requiring everyone to install TeX Live from upstream.
[19:21] <PaddyLandau> Yes, as far as I know. I've never actually used TeX Live, but at least I know that the installation works.
[19:21] <hannie> that's good news then
[19:21] <hannie> I'll give it a try tomorrow myself
[19:21] <godbyk> ajmontag: Did you have any thoughts on how things went during the last release cycle?
[19:22] <godbyk> ajmontag: What worked well and what could be improved?
[19:22] <PaddyLandau> Hannie: Let us know how well it works.
[19:22] <hannie> godbyk, the 3rd point I had for the comments will be discussed later (spreadsheet authors)
[19:22] <hannie> PaddyLandau, I will
[19:22] <hannie> hey CrustyBarnacle
[19:22] <CrustyBarnacle> Howdy all.. Hey Hannie
[19:22] <ajmontag> With this being my first project like this, I dont have much to compare it to, but I think it went smoothly.
[19:22] <godbyk> Hey, CrustyBarnacle.
[19:23] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: We were just discussing how things went during the previous cycle.
[19:23] <CrustyBarnacle> Our awesome LaTex-ers and Hannie did an excellent job herding us cats!
[19:23] <godbyk> The meeting agenda is here: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting
[19:23] <godbyk> I collected the responses we got from the mailing list.
[19:23] <hannie> couldn 't do without you guys
[19:23] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Good to hear!
[19:24] <godbyk> hannie is an excellent cat-herder!
[19:24] <hannie> with a whip :)
[19:24] <PaddyLandau> +1 for Hannie's involvement.
[19:24] <CrustyBarnacle> One thing that could improve, if we continue to use it. Google docs spreadsheet. Did we actually use it to track?
[19:24]  * hannie starts blushing
[19:25] <PaddyLandau> Hannie: LOL
[19:25] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: c7p and hannie used the spreadsheet quite a bit to track things.
[19:25] <godbyk> I generally just emailed them to find out where we were. :-)
[19:25] <hannie> I have made a new spreadsheet for Quantal, it will be discussed later
[19:25] <CrustyBarnacle> The troubleshooting chapter assignments... I did not get responses ever from the assigned authors.
[19:25]  * godbyk only *appears* to know what's going. It's really c7p and hannie who keep things on track!
[19:26] <CrustyBarnacle> That chapter still needs to be revisited, yes?
[19:26] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: I think the troubleshooting chapter is a perennial problem.
[19:26] <hannie> let me have a look at the old spreadsheet
[19:26] <godbyk> It seems that it's difficult to keep that one updated.
[19:27] <hannie> It says: Tom to make an outline of the new chapter
[19:27] <CrustyBarnacle> Overall though... Communication was great this cycle. Lots of progress emails and quick changes/commits.
[19:27] <hannie> Perhaps we should ask Tom Swartz?
[19:27] <godbyk> Hey, ChrisWoollard!
[19:27] <hannie> hey ChrisWoollard
[19:28] <CrustyBarnacle> Howdy ChrisWoolard :-)
[19:28] <ChrisWoollard> Hey Everybody
[19:28] <hannie> ChrisWoollard, here is the agenda: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting
[19:28] <godbyk> Why don't we move on to the Quantal discussion. I think the troubleshooting chapter will likely need to be addressed again during that cycle anyway.
[19:28] <ChrisWoollard> thanks
[19:29] <godbyk> Slight detour first:
[19:29] <CrustyBarnacle> +1 Quantal discussion after detour :-)
[19:29] <godbyk> #topic Menubar / top bar / panel
[19:29] <godbyk> In an effort to be consistent, Hannie emailed the Ubuntu docs team and others to try to sort out what to call that thing at the top of the screen.
[19:30] <CrustyBarnacle> UI references vs user preference/understanding <-- Is that the main thing?
[19:30] <ChrisWoollard> sensible
[19:30] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Somewhat. And because everyone calls it something different, apparently.
[19:30] <hannie> It was quite interesting to read the reactions, also on the forums (thanks PaddyLandau )
[19:31] <hannie> The ubuntu docs use menu bar because that is how it is called in the gui
[19:31] <CrustyBarnacle> hannie: I was surprised by all the opinions on this one.
[19:31] <PaddyLandau> The way I see, we are in a difficult situation. The jargon is "menu bar". But the manual is supposed to be jargon-free (as stated on the website), and the bar is not a menu bar.
[19:31] <hannie> Even from jorge Castro :)
[19:32] <PaddyLandau> But I think if we stick to standards and simply qualify what we mean when we introduce the term, it will be OK to call it the menu bar.
[19:32] <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Though some people said that 'menu bar' (or 'menubar'?) is what appears in the UI.
[19:32] <CrustyBarnacle> PaddyLandau: "menu bar" is a UI name, not jargon.
[19:32] <hannie> if we want to suggest another term, we should contact the gui developers first
[19:32] <CrustyBarnacle> +1 contact devlopers
[19:32] <PaddyLandau> Well, my vote is to stick with the jargon ("menu bar") unless we have a good reason to do otherwise.
[19:32] <godbyk> I think our best bet is to ensure that the manual's terminology matches that which the user will see in the user interface.
[19:33] <hannie> I suggest we use menu bar for the moment (Quantal). What do you guys think?
[19:33] <godbyk> We can, in addition, mention synonymous names that they'll find others calling it in the forums and on mailing lists, though.
[19:33] <PaddyLandau> godbyk & hannie: Agreed.
[19:33] <ajmontag> my vote is for Menubar
[19:33] <CrustyBarnacle> menu bar
[19:33] <hannie> ajmontag, two words
[19:33] <PaddyLandau> Two words, please: "menu bar".
[19:33] <godbyk> For example: The menu bar (also called the top bar or the panel) ...
[19:33] <ajmontag> ah, agreed.
[19:33] <hannie> godbyk, yes we can explain that
[19:33] <godbyk> hannie: We should use one or two words -- however it appears in the user interface.
[19:34] <PaddyLandau> The same would apply to the Launcher but in reverse: "The Launcher (the left side bar)..."
[19:34] <godbyk> Having said that, someone else point out that the global menu may become optional in 12.10 and applications can have menubars in their windows again. In which case the terminology used in the Unity UI may change. So we'll have to keep an eye on that.
[19:34] <CrustyBarnacle> Will the agreed upon terms be added to a Style Guide?
[19:35] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Yes. I'll try to make sure that all of this makes it into the style guide.
[19:35] <godbyk> (The trick then being coercing authors and editors to read the style guide. ;-))
[19:35] <hannie> godbyk, the more reason to stick to menu bar for the moment?
[19:35] <godbyk> Our of curiosity, how many here have read the style guide (in whole or in part)?
[19:35] <PaddyLandau> I have in whole though I admit parts were scanned.
[19:36] <ChrisWoollard> I have
[19:36] <CrustyBarnacle> Read
[19:36] <ChrisWoollard> ish
[19:36] <hannie> godbyk, I think it is getting better and better
[19:36] <ChrisWoollard> mostly
[19:36] <godbyk> hannie: At the moment, I think menu bar is fine. We'll change it if we need to in the future.
[19:36] <CrustyBarnacle> Next item? Screenshot?
[19:36] <hannie> Perhaps we should mail to everyone that the style guide is a MUST
[19:36] <godbyk> I don't think many people need to read the entire guide, actually. If you're not a translator, you don't really need to read the translation chapter, after all.
[19:37] <CrustyBarnacle> Doesn't hurt to read it all :-)
[19:37] <hannie> godbyk, sorry for asking you about /gls while I could have looked in the style guide
[19:37] <PaddyLandau> godbyk: This is a manual that needs a consistent interface. Who would *not* need to read the Style Guide?
[19:37] <ajmontag> I glanced through the style guide before I started, then used it as a reference as I went.
[19:37] <godbyk> I have been adding things to the style guide as I encounter them when editing the manual as well.
[19:38] <godbyk> Do you think it's helpful if I email the list when I add new info to the style guide?
[19:38] <godbyk> Or do you you regularly re-download the style guide when you want to reference it?
[19:38] <hannie> yes, it is helpful
[19:38] <godbyk> Okay, I'll try to do a better job of that in the future, then.
[19:38] <PaddyLandau> Yes, definitely helpful. I re-downloaded only when you emailed us.
[19:38] <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Weekly summary if any updates/changes made?
[19:39] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: That could work, too.
[19:39] <hannie> it reminds people that they should use the style guide more often
[19:39] <ajmontag> hannie: +1
[19:39] <godbyk> #topic Ubunto 12.10 release schedule
[19:39] <godbyk> The release schedule for Ubuntu 12.10 is at <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule>
[19:40] <godbyk> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule
[19:40] <godbyk> Some highlights are:
[19:40] <godbyk> Feature freeze: 23 August
[19:40] <godbyk> UI freeze: 30 August
[19:40] <godbyk> Beta 2 freeze: 20 September
[19:40] <godbyk> Final release: 18 October
[19:40] <hannie> I haven'tried this yet, ut can I use Virtual Box while having Ubuntu installed inside Windows (Wubi)?
[19:40] <godbyk> The big question is: Do you think we could release the manual on 18 October (or shortly afterward)?
[19:40] <hannie> *but
[19:41] <godbyk> hannie: I'm not sure. I've never tried that.
[19:41] <PaddyLandau> hannie: You can have as many machines as you like on Virtual Box. You can also run more than one at the same time, but beware: you need the RAM! How much RAM does your machine have?
[19:42] <hannie> wubi has 30 GB I think
[19:42] <hannie> The machine has much more of course
[19:42] <PaddyLandau> Sorry, I misread; WUBI is separate from Virtual Box. You can certainly run Ubuntu in Virtual Box while your host is either WUBI or Windows.
[19:42] <CrustyBarnacle> off topic... back to manual :-), please :)
[19:42] <hannie> hey commandoline welcome
[19:42] <PaddyLandau> Sorry. Hannie, we can take this to email.
[19:42] <hannie> PaddyLandau, ok
[19:42] <commandoline> hi hannie & everyone else
[19:43] <godbyk> Hey, commandoline.
[19:43] <hannie> godbyk, commandoline is a python expert :)
[19:43] <godbyk> commandoline: The meeting agenda is online at http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting
[19:43] <godbyk> hannie, commandoline: Ah, excellent!
[19:44] <hannie> godbyk, sorry about the VB detour. Just proceed
[19:44] <godbyk> hannie: no problem.
[19:44] <godbyk> Does anyone have any thoughts on trying to release the manual on 18 October with the final release of Ubuntu 12.10?  Doable?  Insane?
[19:45] <hannie> I think most of the Precise manual is reusable
[19:45] <ajmontag> I think it would be possible.
[19:45] <hannie> therefore it will take less time to write for the new version
[19:45] <CrustyBarnacle> Doable. Main changes are screenshots and Troubleshooting?
[19:45] <PaddyLandau> Heck, why not? Provided that we can provides "updates" to the installation. If you can install the manual through the Ubuntu Software Centre, can you send updates to it? Then people get the updates automatically?
[19:46] <godbyk> The UI freeze is set for 30 August, but we know that there are always lots of UI freeze exceptions and that Canonical likes to dump a lot of last-minute changes in after the fact. (They're sneaky that way.)
[19:46] <godbyk> The Beta 2 freeze if 20 September, however.
[19:46] <godbyk> At that point, it should be stable enough for us to install it and check to ensure all the details are correct.
[19:46] <godbyk> PaddyLandau: I'm not sure. I presume so.
[19:47] <PaddyLandau> There's plenty of work. Do we have the manpower?
[19:47] <ajmontag> I think we could begin authoring on 20 September (beta 2 freeze)
[19:47] <hannie> Beta 2 should be stable enough
[19:47] <CrustyBarnacle> So... Final draft: mid-September, Releases: Oct 18?
[19:47] <godbyk> Well, final draft would be closer to the release date.. sometime near mid-October.
[19:48] <hannie> I will not be available in August, so others will have to take over in that period
[19:48] <PaddyLandau> How about this... We aim for final release 17th October (so it's available for the 12.10 release the day after); but accept that if things go wrong, we let the date slip.
[19:48] <ajmontag> *if* we begin authoring at the beta 2 freeze, that would likely put our release a month after the Ubuntu release
[19:48] <ajmontag> PaddyLandau: +1
[19:50] <godbyk> We spent roughly two months on the 12.04 cycle.
[19:50] <godbyk> Did that seem like enough time?  Was it rushed?  Did it take too long?
[19:51] <ajmontag> I thought it was just right.
[19:51] <CrustyBarnacle> Quantal DocumentationStringFreeze : Sept. 20 <-- Can we have a draft to review by then?
[19:51] <PaddyLandau> Quite rushed for me, but I prefer it that way; it doesn't drag out.
[19:51] <CrustyBarnacle> It was a good amount - Faster then previous cycles, but felt like the right pace.
[19:51] <ChrisWoollard> Personally, I was pleased that it was done so quickly. Much better than previous cycles
[19:51] <hannie> I think 2 months is just right
[19:51] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: hannie's quite the task-master. ;-)
[19:52] <godbyk> Okay, so let's see how two months fits in to the Ubuntu 12.10 release schedule...
[19:52] <godbyk> It we release October 18, we need to start work August 18.
[19:52] <CrustyBarnacle> If we Release on  Oct. 18, then we start Aug. 16-23-ish? Yes
[19:52] <godbyk> Since feature freeze is 23 August, it ought to work out fairly well.
[19:53] <PaddyLandau> I think we should release Oct. 17th, the day before the official release.
[19:53] <godbyk> We can start taking screenshots after Beta 2 (20 September).
[19:53] <PaddyLandau> How long does it take to get into the Ubuntu Software Centre?
[19:53] <CrustyBarnacle> +1 to starting at FeatureFreeze
[19:53] <godbyk> Were there any phases of our manual's release cycle that seemed too short or too long?
[19:53] <godbyk> Did we spent too much or too little time writing or editing?
[19:53] <hannie> +1 starting end of August
[19:53] <godbyk> Did anyone feel like they were sitting on their hands with nothing to do for a long period of time?
[19:54] <ChrisWoollard> Q: Isn't the default wallpater not updated until the release candiate some time
[19:54] <hannie> godbyk, that depended on the chapter
[19:54] <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Waiting for author responses for Troubleshooting. Wasted a lot of time when I had time :-/
[19:54] <hannie> ChrisWoollard, I agree on not starting too early with the screenshots
[19:54] <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Well, we submit our PDF to the App Review Board and they review it during one of their meetings. They're supposed to meet twice monthly, but another site said their next meeting was a month out when I looked. So they may be meeting at the end of each month instead of every two weeks now.
[19:54] <hannie> Let's give the text priority
[19:55] <ChrisWoollard> I would say, start the screenshots at whatever point the wallpaper is updated.
[19:55] <godbyk> PaddyLandau: If they continue to meet at the end of each month (and they're not swamped), then we should see the manual in the Software Center toward the beginning of November, I expect.
[19:55] <CrustyBarnacle> Screenshots after/starting at Beta 2 +1
[19:55] <PaddyLandau> godbyk: Can we take the Ubuntu Software Centre to a private email tomorrow to avoid cluttering this chat?
[19:55] <ChrisWoollard> Obiously some can be done earlier if they done have the wallpaper
[19:56] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Quite possibly. It seems like they always push UI changes up to the last possible second. It makes taking oodles of screenshots a right pain.
[19:56] <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Sure.
[19:57] <godbyk> Okay, since we don't have a lot of people at this meeting how about I draft a set of milestones for the 12.10 release of the manual and send it to the list for comments?
[19:57] <godbyk> Then we can discuss any objections and changes there.
[19:57] <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: +1
[19:58] <godbyk> Okay, next up:
[19:58] <godbyk> #topic Ubuntu Manual website
[19:58] <godbyk> We've been using the same website for a couple years now and I think it's time we overhauled it.
[19:58] <ChrisWoollard> +1
[19:58] <godbyk> At the moment, any time we want to change the text on the website, or publish a new manual to the site, I log into the web server and hand-edit a bunch of files.
[19:59] <godbyk> It's not a very efficient way to go about doing things and it's prone to error.
[19:59] <godbyk> PaddyLandau suggested that we take a look at WordPress as an option.
[20:00] <godbyk> And hannie had someone who is poking at the Drupal site that we have at http://test.ubuntu-manual.org to see how awful it may be.
[20:00] <PaddyLandau> I far prefer the current site to the test one.
[20:00] <ChrisWoollard> Worpress could work. Depends if it does everything we need.
[20:00] <PaddyLandau> But I'd avoid Drupal. Although a good site, it takes plenty of work.
[20:00] <PaddyLandau> I mean CMS, not site.
[20:01] <CrustyBarnacle> Current site looks good.
[20:01] <hannie> PaddyLandau, the test site is not usable yet
[20:01] <godbyk> Our current site (not the test site) is written in PHP. It has a lot of bugs and I have to update it by hand.
[20:01] <PaddyLandau> I am willing to set up a test WordPress site so that we can fiddle and check whether or not it will do what we need without tears and gnashing of teeth.
[20:01] <godbyk> I'd like to have a web interface so that others can help maintain the site (e.g., update instructions, publish manuals, etc.).
[20:02] <godbyk> PaddyLandau: I was in the midst of replying to your WordPress email when the meeting started.
[20:02] <PaddyLandau> WordPress is entirely web-based, and you can assign people various administrator or author.
[20:02] <CrustyBarnacle> Wordpress would provide that. It's all PHP to MySQL backend
[20:02] <godbyk> PaddyLandau: It looks like the translation stuff you linked to is about translating the WordPress admin pages. I didn't notice anything about translating the content of the blog entries or static pages, though. (I may have missed it, though, so if it's there feel free to point me at it.)
[20:03] <PaddyLandau> Ah, sorry. I shall get onto the WordPress forums tomorrow and ask. If there is nothing, it would be more difficult and may not be a suitable solution.
[20:03] <godbyk> commandoline: Are you the Marten that hannie spoke of?
[20:03] <commandoline> godbyk: I am
[20:04] <godbyk> PaddyLandau: The other WordPress questions I had were: (1) it'd be nice to preserve our existing URIs either through WordPress or a .htaccess/mod_rewrite file.
[20:04] <godbyk> PaddyLandau: (2) I wonder if we can make the downloads page work under wordpress.
[20:04] <godbyk> commandoline: I don't know if hannie saw my reply yet, but the test site (in Drupal) is available on Launchpad. Let me grab the link for you.
[20:04] <PaddyLandau> (1) WordPress allows you tailor your URIs, so that's not a problem. You can also use mod_rewrite through .htaccess if you want.
[20:04] <godbyk> commandoline: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-website/0.3
[20:04] <commandoline> godbyk: nice :)
[20:04] <hannie> PaddyLandau, godbyk is it possible to explain in 2 words what this WordPress is?
[20:05] <PaddyLandau> (2) That is something I have started to investigate. It is definitely possible, but may need some simple PHP, which I can code.
[20:05] <godbyk> hannie: WordPress is primarily a blog engine.
[20:05] <godbyk> hannie: But in addition to the usual dated blog entries, you can also create static pages -- pages that don't change frequently -- like those on our existing site.
[20:05] <hannie> but what we want is make a new website
[20:06] <hannie> aha
[20:06] <godbyk> WordPRess provides a web interface so you can create and edit pages/text through the website itself instead of editing the source files directly.
[20:07] <CrustyBarnacle> WordPress also allows workflow: Author --> Editor/Approval --> Publish
[20:07] <godbyk> If we can get WordPress (or a plugin) to allow us to easily translate the content of the site, I think WordPress would be a good option.
[20:07] <PaddyLandau> Hannie: Look at Macleans for an example of a WordPress website: http://www2.macleans.ca/
[20:08] <godbyk> We could use its static pages for the stuff that doesn't change much (instructions, information, etc.) and the blog part for posting 'news' items (announcements of new manual releases, requests for help, etc.).
[20:08] <hannie> PaddyLandau, I'll have a look at it in a moment
[20:08] <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Another option is that we can create a separate site for the downloads page so that WordPress doesn't have to manage that.
[20:09] <PaddyLandau> godbyk: Generally, you won't use static pages at all. You use posts, but you set each post to be the type of page you want.
[20:09] <PaddyLandau> We also don't need a separate site for downloads (if necessary). WordPress is entirely compatible with concurrent running of static non-WordPress pages on the same site.
[20:09] <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Then we'd just need to (1) figure out how to translate WordPress content, and (2) build a downloads page and interface to upload the new manuals [which wouldn't be all that difficult].
[20:09] <PaddyLandau> (1) I shall investigate. (2) Definitely possible, just finding the easiest (i.e. most maintainable) way of doing it.
[20:10] <PaddyLandau> I shall let the list know when I have some answers.
[20:10] <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Thanks!
[20:10] <hannie> And how about a site like our translation team wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu-nl.org/community/Vertaalteam
[20:10] <ajmontag> here is a showcase of good wordpress sites:
[20:10] <ajmontag> http://wordpress.org/showcase/
[20:11] <godbyk> hannie: The issue there is that we'd still need a way to translate the site and we'd need a nice downloads page.
[20:11] <godbyk> commandoline: If you have any questions about the current website or the test site, feel free to pester me. I may not have all the answers, but I'm happy to try and find them for you.
[20:12] <godbyk> commandoline: (I didn't write the code for either of the sites, but I do host both sites. And I've written chunks of the code for the current site.)
[20:12] <commandoline> godbyk: ok, thanks. I'll give the test site a look.
[20:12] <godbyk> Did anyone else have any questions or comments about the Ubuntu Manual website?
[20:13] <CrustyBarnacle> next topic?
[20:13] <godbyk> #topic Spreadsheet
[20:14] <godbyk> I think this might just be some notes that hannie added.
[20:14] <godbyk> One thing I might suggest we consider, however:
[20:14] <godbyk> If we can find someone who's interested in helping us with some web development work, we could have them create a web page for us to track the status of the chapters.
[20:15] <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Any way to use launchpad for this?
[20:15] <godbyk> So instead of using the spreadsheet, they could use our website and see what our current phase/milestone is, what needs to be done, what's already been done, who's responsible for doing what, etc.
[20:15] <PaddyLandau> There's probably a tool already available on the Internet to do this.
[20:15] <PaddyLandau> Why not Google Docs?
[20:15] <hannie> I want to suggest the following:
[20:15] <godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Possibly, I'm not sure.  I tend to get lost frequently when I try to do stuff using Launchpad.
[20:15] <TonyP> godbyk: A wiki page?
[20:15] <ajmontag> There are lots of programs for tracking software development progress, and we may find something that can let us post online.
[20:15] <godbyk> PaddyLandau: Probably. Well, the current spreadhseet is using Google Docs.
[20:16] <godbyk> TonyP: I was thinking something a bit more structured.
[20:16] <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Agreed, unfortunately...
[20:16] <ajmontag> Agile software development tools would be something to look for
[20:16] <godbyk> ajmontag: Would you like to poke around and see if you can find something simple that would fit our needs?
[20:16] <PaddyLandau> What specifically are you looking for? Project management?
[20:16] <ajmontag> godbyk: working on it
[20:16] <TonyP> godbyk: I could never get anything on the Google doc
[20:16] <godbyk> It'd be nice if an author could log in and update their status on the chapter.
[20:17] <godbyk> Then everyone can see that chapter 5 is 65% rewritten.
[20:17] <godbyk> And chapter 3 has been 30% edited.
[20:17] <hannie> godbyk, we can share the spreadsheet with all team members
[20:17] <godbyk> And that way hannie knows who to whip. ;-)
[20:17] <godbyk> hannie: Do the team members update the spreadsheet themselves or do you and c7p handle the updates?
[20:18] <hannie> thus everyone can add the status of his chapter
[20:18] <godbyk> We can try that. I'm not picky. It was just a thought. :)
[20:18] <hannie> godbyk, so far it was just me and c7p, but I can share this one with all our members
[20:18] <godbyk> #topic Any other business
[20:19] <godbyk> Okay, was there anything else that anyone wanted to discuss before we end the meeting?
[20:19] <hannie> I do not have any questions
[20:19] <PaddyLandau> No more from me.
[20:19] <CrustyBarnacle> nope
[20:19] <TonyP> Just want to apologise for getting to the meeting so late
[20:20] <godbyk> TonyP: Ah, no worries.
[20:20] <godbyk> Not everyone can make every meeting.
[20:20] <godbyk> We're happy when anyone shows up. :)
[20:20] <hannie> oh, c7p will send an email to all authors of Precise, asking if they want to work for the new version
[20:20] <godbyk> hannie: Ah, great!
[20:20] <TonyP> You are so kind!
[20:20] <hannie> I will do the same to our editors
[20:20] <godbyk> hannie: Perfect!
[20:21] <godbyk> hannie: I'll sit back and watch you and c7p work.
[20:21] <ajmontag> Here is some agile software (web based and free)
[20:21] <ajmontag> http://www.agilefant.org/
[20:21] <ajmontag> here is a review and a screen:
[20:21] <ajmontag> http://www.agile-tools.net/agileprojectmanagement/agilefant.aspx
[20:21] <ajmontag> disclaimer: I have never used this before :P
[20:22] <PaddyLandau> Are you sure it's web-based? The website talks about downloading the software.
[20:22] <godbyk> ajmontag: Cool. Thanks!  I'll take a look at it.  I think we probably only really need the review/overview screen. It doesn't have to be too detailed.
[20:22] <hannie> ok, guys, it's time to relax. Thank you all for coming. Let's make Quantal even better!
[20:22] <PaddyLandau> Thanks for holding the meeting.
[20:22] <godbyk> Thanks, everyone.
[20:22]  * PaddyLandau waves goodbye.
[20:23] <godbyk> I'll email the meeting minutes to the list soon.
[20:23] <hannie> godbyk, thank you for being chai
[20:23] <godbyk> #endmeeting
[20:23] <hannie> *chair
[20:23] <meetingology> Meeting ended Sat Jul 14 20:23:12 2012 UTC.
[20:23] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2012/ubuntu-manual.2012-07-14-19.10.moin.txt
[20:23] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2012/ubuntu-manual.2012-07-14-19.10.html
[20:23] <godbyk> hannie: no problem!
[20:23] <ChrisWoollard> thanks
[20:23] <CrustyBarnacle> thanks all!
[20:23] <hannie> bye
[20:23] <ajmontag> PaddyLandau: no, I am not sure it is web based
[20:23] <PaddyLandau> ajmontag: OK. no problem.
[20:23] <PaddyLandau> I have to go now.
[20:24] <PaddyLandau> Bye everyone.
[20:24] <TonyP> Bye from me
[20:24] <ajmontag> bye
[20:24] <CrustyBarnacle> bye


[00:19] <kyrofa> For my peace of mind, can someone please confirm that if a private PPA password leaks, all that leaks is _read_ access to that _specific_ PPA?
[00:22] <wgrant> kyrofa: That's correct. PPA access tokens are read-only and tied to a specific PPA and user.
[00:22] <kyrofa> wgrant, thank you sir
[00:29] <kyrofa> Another unrelated question: is there a way to get the signing key for a PPA before it has packages?
[00:40] <wgrant> kyrofa: To save resources and not pollute keyservers, LP only generates the key for a PPA once packages exist in it. But do note that this only applies to the first PPA for a given person or team; subsequent PPAs with the same owner should reuse the existing key on creation.
[00:49] <kyrofa> Oh that's interesting, I never noticed that
[09:18] <cjwatson> (or rather, in read-only mode)
[09:34] <cjwatson> Master switch finished a while ago, sorry for forgetting to update here
[09:35] <cjwatson> Writes are now going to pure SSD so hopefully that'll help performance
[13:45] <rbasak> Could someone explain what's happening in https://api.launchpad.net/devel/debian/+archive/primary/+sourcepub/1934411 please? This object has no date_published entry. What does it mean for a publication history entry to have been created but never published?
[13:50] <cjwatson> rbasak: An old bug.  Prior to https://git.launchpad.net/launchpad/commit/?id=93b487ee1332840f036603b1567183963d6a9fab, the Debian importer created source package publishing history entries as Pending and never set them to Published (unless the publisher was run on them, which never happened in this case).
[13:52] <cjwatson> rbasak: But it could probably happen in other cases if the SPPH was quickly superseded by a newer version before being published.
[13:52] <rbasak> cjwatson: thanks.
[13:53] <rbasak> cjwatson: in other cases> in Ubuntu only presumably, or Debian too?
[13:53] <rbasak> Because I assume you only create Debian publishing history entries when you see Debian publications?
[13:53] <cjwatson> In Ubuntu.  (I think.)
[13:53] <cjwatson> Right.
[13:53] <rbasak> Got it. Thanks!
[13:53] <cjwatson> Since the change above, Debian publications are immediately created as Published.
[13:54] <wgrant> I don't think something can be immediately superseded, but it can be immediately deleted
[13:54] <wgrant> (pretty sure the dominator only considers status == published)
[13:55] <cjwatson> Hm yes
[13:55] <cjwatson> So still possible but rarer
[13:56] <rbasak> Is there a guarantee that every source_package_publishing_history has a package_upload?
[13:58] <cjwatson> That seems unlikely; a Debian-imported one doesn't
[13:58] <rbasak> Oh
[13:58]  * rbasak wonders where git-ubuntu gets the source from then
[13:59] <cjwatson> PackageUpload would seem a slightly odd thing to go through to get the source
[14:00] <rbasak> Ah. It defers that to ubuntutools.archive
[14:00] <cjwatson> You could do sourceFileUrls on the SPPH
[14:00] <cjwatson> Or yeah, look them up from the archive by source name and version
[14:01] <rbasak> Sorry, I forgot the details of the model here.
[14:01] <cjwatson> package_upload corresponds to something that has been in a queue at some point (/ubuntu/focal/+queue etc.)
[14:01] <rbasak> My question is really: if I include spphs with no date_published entries, then will I have a problem importing them?
[14:02] <rbasak> Or will something importable always exist?
[14:02] <rbasak> (importable == I can grab a source tree, dsc file, etc)
[14:02] <cjwatson> They should still have files on the sourcepackagerelease even before being published
[14:02] <rbasak> Sounds good, thanks
[14:02] <cjwatson> date_published is more about being put on disk by the publisher
[14:03] <rbasak> I'll rely on the date_created of spphs then
[14:03] <rbasak> And mostly (completely?) ignore date_published
[14:04] <cjwatson> date_published is interesting if you want to line things up with when the publisher ran, but I can't think of why it would be interesting to git-ubuntu
[14:04] <rbasak> And I'll use the earliest spph (keyed by date_created) for a (source_package_name, source_package_version) pair to keep consistency in ordering
[14:05] <rbasak> cjwatson: yeah - sounds like I took a wrong turn in using date_published instead of date_created
[14:06] <cjwatson> I'm not sure I can authoritatively guarantee that every SPPH will have some associated files - it's possible there are anomalies - but I don't expect that to have anything to do with whether date_published is set
[14:07] <cjwatson> And I don't know of a situation today where that would happen
[14:07] <rbasak> Fair enough. If we find anomalies, the import will probably fail until I add code to detect the anomaly and treat the spph as if it doesn't exist. I think that's OK.
[14:08] <wgrant> It is uncommon, but e.g. maitreya
[14:08] <wgrant> Possibly only maitreya
[14:08] <wgrant> I think we treated that like an early source expiry, rather than excising it from the DB entirely.
[14:08] <cjwatson> Not importing that is in fact desired
[14:08] <wgrant> Indeed.
[14:09] <cjwatson> Oh maybe also really old obsolete things?
[14:09] <cjwatson> I don't remember whether we've ever expired source files
[14:09] <cjwatson> I didn't think so
[14:09] <cjwatson> (aside from maitreya)
[14:09] <rbasak> More detail on maitreya please?
[14:09] <cjwatson> Legal
[14:09] <rbasak> Sounds like a good edge case to make sure git-ubuntu works with.
[14:09] <rbasak> We can also put it in an import blacklist
[14:10] <cjwatson> (also, astrologers)
[14:10] <rbasak> But I'd like to make sure git-ubuntu does work against things Launchpad has.
[14:10] <cjwatson> The gory details are best discussed over beer :)
[14:10] <wgrant> I don't think we've expired sources from the Ubuntu primary archive
[14:10] <wgrant> For obsolescence reasons, I mean
[14:10] <rbasak> Virtual beer? :)
[14:11] <cjwatson> https://wiki.canonical.com/InformationInfrastructure/OSA/RequestLogging/LP/SQL has some history, ish
[14:18] <rbasak> Thanks!
[14:47] <Odd_Bloke> We just saw a build failure in Launchpad that we didn't reproduce in either of the local builds we did (one using sbuild, one just building in their host).  Is there any (not entirely painful :p) way to build packages the way that Launchpad does?  (Or at least more closely?)
[14:48] <Odd_Bloke> (I know this is Complicated, but figured I'd double check that I'm not missing something I could be using.)
[14:58] <tomwardill> Odd_Bloke: is it a consistent failure?
[15:10] <Odd_Bloke> Yeah, it's just a difference in environment.
[15:10] <Odd_Bloke> Which I would like to be able to catch locally/in the build we do in our CI/..., if possible.
[16:23] <cjwatson> Odd_Bloke: Tom wrote https://dev.launchpad.net/Soyuz/HowToDevelopWithBuildd a little while back, but it uses the LXD VM stuff and is generally a tad new
[16:23] <cjwatson> And also doesn't do the restricted network stuff I think
[16:23] <tomwardill> sorry, dropped this conversation and got distracted
[16:23] <tomwardill> no, it doesn't do the restricted network (it could, but that's a bunch of ufw stuff that I'm not sure I can repeat atm)
[17:03] <Odd_Bloke> OK, cool, I'll give that a go at some point.  Thanks!


[11:59] <sakredot> dot release looking good so far... tho these seem to remain: #1527314
[11:59] <sakredot> #1550186
[11:59] <sakredot> bug#1550210
[12:00] <sakredot> bug 1527314
[12:00] <sakredot> thank you ubottu :) bug 1550186
[12:00] <sakredot> bug 1550210
[12:01] <sakredot> at least in the live session... installing to disk as i type...
[12:02] <sakredot> also, hi guys!
[13:42] <sakrecoer> is there no test-case for upgrade from 14.04 to 16.04.1?
[13:44] <sakrecoer> i think i understood it would be rolling out once .1 was released..
[13:44] <sakrecoer> zequence, OvenWerks, any idea..?
[13:55] <sakrecoer> i have to log out for the day, i'll be back later tonight so check if there was any rebuild that needs to be rechecked...
[13:55] <sakrecoer> *to check if there was any rebuild
[13:58] <sakrecoer> i tried 32 and 64 bit and it looks good to me... but i reckon we need a few more tests... ping: astraljava1, autumna, cyphermox, DalekSec, luisbg, Noskcaj, OvenWerks, zequence. pong: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/363/builds
[14:02] <zequence> sakrecoer: The upgrade tests are usually in another section, but I usually don't bother with them, since the support for them from our side is pretty much non existent.
[14:03] <zequence> An upgrade should work, but it will most probably cause some form of duplicity of systems in between changes that we've done
[14:03] <zequence> Or, as a result of the changes that we've done, I mean
[14:04] <zequence> In some cases I'm sure this is solved by debian packaging, where one package will "Replace" another.
[14:48] <luisbg> sakrecoer: very cool
[23:57] <sakrecoer> thanks zequence.
[23:59] <sakrecoer> luisbg: what can we do, except stay cool?.. awesome would be many tests, forward is participation.


[08:44] <alan_g> alf_: anpok got time today for a little USC MP? https://code.launchpad.net/~alan-griffiths/unity-system-compositor/incorporate-logo-into-spinner-binary/+merge/261181
[08:55] <anpok> ok
[09:20] <duflu> alan_g: Let me know if you ever find a vectorized version? (just a list of vertices is enough) I like the idea of infinite scalability and 3D effects using the logo in future projects :)
[09:20] <duflu> Although it has rotational symmetry so should not be too hard...
[09:21] <alan_g> duflu: sure. Maybe someone in design has something more tractable than a png?
[09:22] <duflu> alan_g: Dunno. Although I suspect the basic list of coordinates required and then repeated 3/6 times would be hilariously simple
[09:24] <alan_g> alf_: do you know a way to get a premultiplied image out of any tool? I really don't want to write a script to edit the header.
[09:28] <duflu> alan_g: Frankly that's the best option to edit in situ. Because the requirement for pre-multiplication is in the code using it and not the image. If someone were to extract the image header and want to edit it, they would not want it pre-multiplied
[09:29] <alf_> alan_g: I would say don't care about this for now, the sizes are small. I am more concerned about having both .h and .png
[09:30] <duflu> Even better if we generate the header from png at build time, which I'd recommend
[09:30] <alf_> duflu: alan_g: Ideally we would produce the .h from .png and change to pre-multiplied alpha there
[09:30] <alan_g> Creating the header during the build would introduce a dependency on a tool that does that.
[09:31] <duflu> alf_: Maybe, probably not. If you're using a generic bin2c tool then it should not interpret the bytes it's converting
[09:31] <alan_g> (And I don't know one that does pre-multiplication
[09:31] <duflu> alan_g: I've done it many times. Write a bin2c.c tool and generate it at build time too :)
[09:32] <alf_> duflu: we need to use a tool that dumps the pixel data, so it does know about the pixel format
[09:32] <alf_> alan_g: I am fine on USC build depending on such a tool
[09:33] <duflu> alf_: "need" is over-used there :)
[09:33] <duflu> Just generate your tools at build time. It's a simple matter of *make*
[09:33] <alf_> alan_g: (and I am fine not doing premultiplication for now)
[09:34] <duflu> It's not a performance issue. Running through the image once even on a slow device is quite fast enough
[09:35] <alan_g> How about I delete the .png and if anyone wants to generate the headers they can MP that?
[09:35] <duflu> alan_g: Reproducability says probably keep it
[09:36] <alf_> alan_g: In that case don't delete it, I will try to propose an MP with the build time generation later today or tomorrow
[09:38] <alan_g> alf_: works for me.
[10:00] <alan_g> Guys, any preferences for which client API? Two options here: http://paste.ubuntu.com/11645578/
[10:08] <duflu> alan_g: The second one will eventually be required (for type morphing) so probably better
[10:09] <alan_g> duflu: we can do type morphing with either
[10:09] <duflu> Well the second one makes more sense to me. You shouldn't need the connection object to morph
[10:11] <alan_g> The fist one is one call fewer and makes the existing mir_connection_create_spec_for_changes() more reasonable.
[10:11] <alan_g> *first
[10:11] <alan_g> But I too lean towards the second
[10:12] <duflu> alan_g: On that note, why is connection here? mir_connection_create_spec_for_changes(MirConnection* connection);
[10:15] <alan_g> I've a vague recollection it was for consistency with code we've now deleted.
[10:15] <alan_g> But I guess we don't need it for the new API
[11:33] <alan_g> Hmm. mir_surface_create() used the connection supplied to mir_connection_create_spec_for_XXX. Shouldn't the connection just be supplied to directly?
[20:20] <SturmFlut> tvoss: Ping
[20:20] <tvoss> SturmFlut, pong
[21:09] <robert_ancell> RAOF, ping
[22:54] <kgunn> robert_ancell: is it a holiday over there...wonder if he's off
[22:54] <robert_ancell> kgunn, ah, is that it
[22:54] <RAOF> robert_ancell: Pong
[22:54] <RAOF> kgunn: No, that was yesterday :)
[22:54] <kgunn> Queen's birthday :)
[23:05] <robert_ancell> RAOF, had a question about X drivers and Mir - why do the drivers need to know they're running inside Xmir?
[23:05] <RAOF> robert_ancell: For new glamor-based XMir they don't, because there are no X drivers.
[23:05] <robert_ancell> RAOF, ah, so we can drop all those patches?
[23:06] <RAOF> Correct.
[23:06] <RAOF> Although this is a bit of a bone of contention.
[23:06] <robert_ancell> RAOF, oh, why?
[23:06] <RAOF> My understanding is that nvidia would very much like to have the same sort of DDX interface that the Xorg binary provides.
[23:07] <RAOF> So that they can provide their own GLX, and expose all the funky features that their hardware supports.
[23:07] <robert_ancell> RAOF, right, but there's always the option of other driver interfaces to Mir like Android
[23:07] <robert_ancell> RAOF, and I should be pushing these all into Debian git?
[23:08] <RAOF> If you've got access, please.
[23:08] <robert_ancell> RAOF, I'm not sure - I guess I should just try and push
[23:20] <RAOF> Oh, that reminds me...


[08:58] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- rbalint, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4017 Currently building (hirsute/gcc-10). Failed to build (hirsute/glibc)
[10:38] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- rbalint, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4017 Cancelled build (hirsute/gcc-10). Failed to build (hirsute/glibc)
[15:50] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- rbalint, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4217 Abandoning ticket
[20:15] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- jamespage, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/3534 Needs rebuild due to higher version at destination (focal/openvswitch, focal/ovn). Ready to build (focal/python-configshell-fb, focal/python-rtslib-fb)


 kglobalaccel5[1751]: qt.qpa.xcb: could not connect to display … kglobalaccel5[1751]: qt.qpa.plugin: Could not load the Qt platform … plugin "xcb" in "" even though it was found."
 ubiquity-dm in hirsute ^^ :(
 @mitya57 related to the new xcb required things?
 oh. ubuntu has 0.4.0-0ubuntu3
 The new xcb-util dependency was added in Qt 5.15.2, we don't have it yet :)
 yeah :/
 I don't know where to look at the full log, but maybe the tests should be run in xvfb?
 @mitya57 [I don't know where to look at the full log, but maybe the tests should be run in …], The error is not in tests. It is real runtime on the ISO
 I would look at `ldd /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/qt5/plugins/platforms/libqxcb.so` output
 And maybe at strace log, to check what files it tries to access.
 But first make sure that X server is running and $DISPLAY is set, of course
 OK. Thanks
 It broke before any KDE/Qt landed in hirsute apparently, so some env change might make sense
 By the way, most of Qt 5.15.2 landed in Debian experimental. I will start preparing a PPA for Hirsute today or tomorrow.
[18:32] <mitya57> *sigh* https://launchpad.net/~ci-train-ppa-service/+archive/ubuntu/4316/+build/20335020
[18:32] <mitya57> (qtbase ICE on riscv64)
 the riscv64 builders are probably worth a retry or two on things like that IIRC
[18:38] <mitya57> Let's see